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Post by the light works on Jun 23, 2016 3:50:12 GMT
More or less yes. A world that was heavily populated in the not to distant past but unexpectedly lost a large number of its population has far more potential for interesting stories taken from various places than a world in which the population gradually declined. The sudden shock and chaos would mean that the inhabitants wouldn't have had a chance to move important (or dangerous) items or goods elsewhere. So god knows what someone could stumble across. Plus locations might have been partly stripped, or items moved elsewhere so simply looking at old records might not be all that helpful. You could easily do a western type story, the ranchers fighting against the expansion of the cities a frontier lawman trying to bring some sort of order to a wild countryside. You could do pure military, with a special forces team being sent in to weaken or just destroy an enemy force. A Star Trek type story, with well meaning do gooders exploring and trying to bring peace without bloodshed or violence but being faced with moral dilemmas in the process. Or stories where the city government's will do anything to hold onto what might be a tenuous grip on power, including trying to eliminate those who ask to many questions or who might have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. From a writing prospective this also means that you don't have to actually work out much detail beyond the area the PCs are in. And can make a lot if stuff up on the fly to fit the needs of the plot, or just for fun. Want to have a group of peaceful settlers who worship a giant rat? It's a strange and large world, why couldn't such a group exist if the rat in question turned out to be an old AI with an unfortunate screen saver.... I'm looking also at the social shift that happens when the planet goes from being a major hub and having everybody wanting control, to having the hub become unnecessary and nobody cares if they exist or not.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 23, 2016 6:04:08 GMT
Going back to the point of it being Battletech like, I hope you take note of what happened between FASA and the rights holders of the Macross anime series. And make sure that you avoid the rights holders to Battletechs IP. That might mean avoiding calling your character a Major in the Black Watch in relation to piloting a giant robot, and making sure the technologies that you use do not resemble theirs too much. Actually, since the Royal Black Watch is a real-life military outfit, even if I *did* use them literally there's not much that can be done about it. It'd be like saying that the Green Berets are out there as well. The Real life "Black watch", which is a regiment of the Queens Highlanders, is named after its rather dark plaid and kilts, its a senior regiment, and they may just come looking for you if you use their name and it get famous.. Mostly to "Fact check" your references... they do like to be accurately accounted for. In Truth, The Black Watch is the only Queens Highlanders that an Englishman can enrol in, or so it used to be, and therefore a Plaid that can be worn by an English man who doesnt have other Scottish ties. Otherwise, in our family, "We're all Jock Tamson's Bairns", so I get claim to the Thompson Plaid. If I so wish. I dont, because I dont feel the need...
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 23, 2016 7:47:50 GMT
Going back to the point of it being Battletech like, I hope you take note of what happened between FASA and the rights holders of the Macross anime series. And make sure that you avoid the rights holders to Battletechs IP. That might mean avoiding calling your character a Major in the Black Watch in relation to piloting a giant robot, and making sure the technologies that you use do not resemble theirs too much. Actually, since the Royal Black Watch is a real-life military outfit, even if I *did* use them literally there's not much that can be done about it. It'd be like saying that the Green Berets are out there as well. Yes and no, mention the Royal Black Watch, as a regiment that's fine, but mention them along with giant robots as in Battletech that might attract a lawyers glare. You may have to justify why your giant robots are not in anyway related to their giant robots, name a regiment that is not used in the Battletech Universe and it is much less likely that they would be able to bring a case or even notice. Just be aware that it is something that might happen, just as happened with mechs like the Archer, Warhammer etc.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 23, 2016 7:49:38 GMT
Actually, since the Royal Black Watch is a real-life military outfit, even if I *did* use them literally there's not much that can be done about it. It'd be like saying that the Green Berets are out there as well. The Real life "Black watch", which is a regiment of the Queens Highlanders, is named after its rather dark plaid and kilts, its a senior regiment, and they may just come looking for you if you use their name and it get famous.. Mostly to "Fact check" your references... they do like to be accurately accounted for. In Truth, The Black Watch is the only Queens Highlanders that an Englishman can enrol in, or so it used to be, and therefore a Plaid that can be worn by an English man who doesnt have other Scottish ties. Otherwise, in our family, "We're all Jock Tamson's Bairns", so I get claim to the Thompson Plaid. If I so wish. I dont, because I dont feel the need... I do not think they would care, they have not done anything about Battletech using their name for decades now.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 23, 2016 11:33:11 GMT
Actually, since the Royal Black Watch is a real-life military outfit, even if I *did* use them literally there's not much that can be done about it. It'd be like saying that the Green Berets are out there as well. Yes and no, mention the Royal Black Watch, as a regiment that's fine, but mention them along with giant robots as in Battletech that might attract a lawyers glare. You may have to justify why your giant robots are not in anyway related to their giant robots, name a regiment that is not used in the Battletech Universe and it is much less likely that they would be able to bring a case or even notice. Just be aware that it is something that might happen, just as happened with mechs like the Archer, Warhammer etc. The BattleTech Black Watch are specifically noted as being descended from the current day Regiment. In fact they paint their Mechs in the Watch's Colours. I doubt they object, or could legally do so, as they are a small part of a very large universe and are included for colour not as a selling or marketing tool. Besides, the BT Watch are the elite unit within one of the best mercenary units around. Both being treated as having strong codes of honor and morals. This is therefore not the same situation as the unseen mechs, where the mechs in question became the very image of a commercial product.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 23, 2016 12:12:34 GMT
I used to play a game designed by a man who became of friend of mine at UK games conventions, it was based on the idea of being cadets at an Academy of a Starfleet, we used to do it regularly for several years. Every thing was okay until Paramount sold the rights to Star Trek to an RPG company to create a game based on this IP, and at the next Gen con UK they were there promoting their game, and the other game came to their attention. As I understand it a few days later letters came from lawyers asking him to cease and desist. He could have tried to fight it on the claim Starfleet and Academy are generic words, but his solicitor advised him it would be difficult, and cost a lot of money, more than it was worth and Paramount had far deeper pockets than him.
Battletech already publish their own line of fiction, and are therefore motivated to,protect their IP at the moment. Like ai say mention the Black Watch as a regiment that's fine, a story about Set in a science fiction world that's okay but once you add giant robots and that we're you might come into difficulties. Or you might not, it depends on how it goes, but a ironhold should be aware of the possibility.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 23, 2016 13:26:06 GMT
Battletech wise you might want to check the reviews section.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 24, 2016 5:56:57 GMT
Perhaps its just wise to avoid all names that could be attached to other products... Just use a search engine (NOT google) to check if anyone else is using a made-up name?. Not google?.. they may steal your ideas.
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Post by ironhold on Jun 28, 2016 3:51:15 GMT
Oh, one more thing - alcohol.
Because they make so much money just off of the raw materials themselves (wheat, rice, grapes, et cetra), there's not a lot of economic incentive to produce alcohol outside of utilizing low-quality material that wouldn't sell otherwise.
You do have some decent wines for cooking and for religious purposes, and there are a few places that make some decent beers. But beyond that, most of the alcohol that does exist in the region is of mediocre quality at best. We're talking stuff that would make Ripple or Thunderbird seem plausible by comparison.
Considering everything else I've mentioned (housing for all, a guarantee of a minimum amount of food for all, status in the military reserves, et cetra), how would this make everyone feel about hypothetically living there?
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Post by the light works on Jun 28, 2016 5:01:29 GMT
Oh, one more thing - alcohol. Because they make so much money just off of the raw materials themselves (wheat, rice, grapes, et cetra), there's not a lot of economic incentive to produce alcohol outside of utilizing low-quality material that wouldn't sell otherwise. You do have some decent wines for cooking and for religious purposes, and there are a few places that make some decent beers. But beyond that, most of the alcohol that does exist in the region is of mediocre quality at best. We're talking stuff that would make Ripple or Thunderbird seem plausible by comparison. Considering everything else I've mentioned (housing for all, a guarantee of a minimum amount of food for all, status in the military reserves, et cetra), how would this make everyone feel about hypothetically living there? the low grade hooch wouldn't phase ME a bit.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 28, 2016 14:18:29 GMT
I don't drink, so it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
If you have a social elite you are going to have luxury goods. Those goods are going to be considered status symbols, owned/purchased by the elite to show off their power and wealth and lusted after by those who have aspirations to join that elite. Alcohol would be one of the natural items to be considered a status symbol, and a way to indicate how 'elite' you really are both in regards what you serve to guests and how well you can identify the quality of anything you get served. In any society you are going to have people trying to outdo each other, show their status/wealth or have a way to identify each other in a group. Alcohol is a quick and easy way to do this, especially if you are talking about a society where more material items are rare and/or the industrial base is limited.
This is also likely to result in various social conventions regarding drinking. Ranging from drunkenness being frowned upon, to it being tolerated or largely ignored as long as someone isn't going too far. For example people might humor drunks and ignore insults from them, but swiftly pull them out of the room if they try to start a fight or look likely to do so. You might even find different conventions at different levels of society (which is actually what we have in the real world). Heavy drinking and drunkenness might be acceptable in the working classes, but be less and less tolerated in the middle and upper classes. The classes are also likely to be drinking different types of alcohol; Cheap and nasty for the workers, smooth and expensive higher up. Again, this is actually in keeping with real world history where you see lower classes in England drinking Gin and the upper classes drinking Port and Brandy.
It is certainly a quick and easy way to show differences between different levels of a society
If there is off world trade alcohol is likely to be one of the main luxury goods that would be traded. Spirits and wines would potentially bring in a large profit on a small cargo, making them a tempting addition to the manifest of any cargo ships regardless of what else they might be carrying. This, however, would require alcohol that is of much higher quality than you could produce elsewhere.
Spirits and beer would probably be the most common type of alcohol produced, as the workforce and land needed would be small; The biggest part of the workforce would be employed in the farms and would be growing crops anyway. Wine would most likely be a bit rarer, as depending on the context and crops being grown you'd need to set land and personal aside for that. Chances are that Vineyards might actually be owned by the 'nobility', being parts of their holdings. If so they might end up competing to produce the best wine. If there is any wine trade it might also be a major part of the nobility's wealth.
Cruder alcohol would be for the lower classes, and some of the 'nobility' or up and comers might opt to drink the cruder types (at least in public) to show their understanding of the general public.
So you'd have two reasons to expect decent to good quality alcohol be be produced, although it might not be available to the general population - A subtle way to show that no matter how perfect a society may appear there is still some social inequality.
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Post by the light works on Jun 28, 2016 14:43:33 GMT
however, if the planet has abruptly become a backwater, there might not be much in the way of imports, and the best distillers might have left in the pullout. this would basically leave homebrew and engine bay hooch. - with a very limited supply of import or reserve stock. a mechanized farming system might also limit supply of grain for homebrew.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 28, 2016 17:15:42 GMT
Even in a backwater you would most likely find 'better' quality alcohol being produced for those who can afford it. Sure, this 'high' quality stuff might be capable of stripping paint, but would be better than the cheap stuff.
Even if they are not using grain for alcohol production, people would find something to use. Even if its potato peelings or food waste. On an alien world they might even have drinks made out of the local flora that are especially sought after, maybe due to having...unusual effects or just a very particular flavor. If some of the local drinks do have other effects, they might technically be illegal in which case you would have 'moonshine' versions being produced. Especially if there are abandoned areas, as some of these might still have power and water suitable for brewing. (And which no doubt would unofficially end up being drunk even in the higher circles of society). If there are some local flora suitable for brewing then homebrews might be fairly common, depending on how easy that flora is to find or grow.
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2016 0:37:27 GMT
Even in a backwater you would most likely find 'better' quality alcohol being produced for those who can afford it. Sure, this 'high' quality stuff might be capable of stripping paint, but would be better than the cheap stuff. Even if they are not using grain for alcohol production, people would find something to use. Even if its potato peelings or food waste. On an alien world they might even have drinks made out of the local flora that are especially sought after, maybe due to having...unusual effects or just a very particular flavor. If some of the local drinks do have other effects, they might technically be illegal in which case you would have 'moonshine' versions being produced. Especially if there are abandoned areas, as some of these might still have power and water suitable for brewing. (And which no doubt would unofficially end up being drunk even in the higher circles of society). If there are some local flora suitable for brewing then homebrews might be fairly common, depending on how easy that flora is to find or grow. my point was that the average alcoholic beverage might not be so refined or nuanced as we are used to. I would expect under the abrupt pullout condition I speculate, they went from a plentiful supply of commercial product with little interference in the supply chain to basically what people learn to make for themselves. perhaps in a couple of generations, they might be able to have 20 year old single malt, but for now, a couple weeks aging is about the best they have to offer. - and if the mechanized farming produces baking supplies, they might have to figure out how to make them deliver whole grains, before they can really get going.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 29, 2016 6:04:33 GMT
This world is essentially a Planned Economy, with large parts of society semi militarised.
As for how long it would take to create decent alcohols, it would depend on what the market was like before the pullout and who survived, if there were areas that already had a specialisation in producing spirits or wines beforehand then they could just continue what they were doing before. Imagine the Nappa Valley it would be able to produce its wines as Speyside would still distill whiskey. Even if the Government ordered that they should not people would still know the skills.
Whole grains are not needed to produce alcohols, here in the UK there was a fashion in the 1970s and 80s to,produce homemade wines from things like Turnips, Blackberrys and even weeds like Dandelions could be fermented to produce a drinkable wine. In a circumstance where only something like this was around the best of these would become the bestsellers.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 29, 2016 8:06:39 GMT
You use what you can get, so MrF is right in that you dont need Grains. Fruit is always a good goto for fermentation, as its high in sugar. Apples?.. where there are apples, there is zyder.
As for all the economic stuff that makes the profit, there would have to be a "spoilers bin". What about the fruit that isnt good enough for market or too spoilt for consumption?.. animal feed maybe, but not all of it goes there?.
Any world will need alcoholic supplies for medical needs, so there would have been some form of industry to cover that?..
However having sparse to none at all, what else is used for the opiate of the masses?. 'Uman nature, they would seek "something", unless say the world is all quaker peoples or something like that that is against alcohol.
I believe unless there is god reason, no whole world would survive without a little "part time" industry making recreational beverages. How would you feel if coffee was banned outright?. for Everyone?. What do the people do for "Entertainment" anyway on this world?. All 'Umans "need" some form of R&R at some time, and what do they do to relax?...
If there is another form of mass entertainment that can do away with the need for alcohol, maybe its not needed, but the social world of the humans there has to be explained in some way.
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2016 14:10:27 GMT
This world is essentially a Planned Economy, with large parts of society semi militarised. As for how long it would take to create decent alcohols, it would depend on what the market was like before the pullout and who survived, if there were areas that already had a specialisation in producing spirits or wines beforehand then they could just continue what they were doing before. Imagine the Nappa Valley it would be able to produce its wines as Speyside would still distill whiskey. Even if the Government ordered that they should not people would still know the skills. Whole grains are not needed to produce alcohols, here in the UK there was a fashion in the 1970s and 80s to,produce homemade wines from things like Turnips, Blackberrys and even weeds like Dandelions could be fermented to produce a drinkable wine. In a circumstance where only something like this was around the best of these would become the bestsellers. but what if it was decided that Earth was no longer a going concern, and Napa Valley and their peers all packed up and left. if a pullout of the nature I am thinking of, there would be four categories: valuable skills, low value skills, high value-to-load materiel, and low value-to-load materiel. valuable skills and materiel would be worth transporting out, low value skills might or might not buy passage to move out, but low value materiel would probably be left. - and in a case like this, wouldn't be worth the expense of "demilitarizing" a good example from here would be that if a homesteader abandoned their homestead, they typically wouldn't waste the effort to tear down their cabin.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 29, 2016 14:27:21 GMT
This world is essentially a Planned Economy, with large parts of society semi militarised. As for how long it would take to create decent alcohols, it would depend on what the market was like before the pullout and who survived, if there were areas that already had a specialisation in producing spirits or wines beforehand then they could just continue what they were doing before. Imagine the Nappa Valley it would be able to produce its wines as Speyside would still distill whiskey. Even if the Government ordered that they should not people would still know the skills. Whole grains are not needed to produce alcohols, here in the UK there was a fashion in the 1970s and 80s to,produce homemade wines from things like Turnips, Blackberrys and even weeds like Dandelions could be fermented to produce a drinkable wine. In a circumstance where only something like this was around the best of these would become the bestsellers. but what if it was decided that Earth was no longer a going concern, and Napa Valley and their peers all packed up and left. if a pullout of the nature I am thinking of, there would be four categories: valuable skills, low value skills, high value-to-load materiel, and low value-to-load materiel. valuable skills and materiel would be worth transporting out, low value skills might or might not buy passage to move out, but low value materiel would probably be left. - and in a case like this, wouldn't be worth the expense of "demilitarizing" a good example from here would be that if a homesteader abandoned their homestead, they typically wouldn't waste the effort to tear down their cabin. If all that were left on the planet were those that were too poor and to unskilled to emigrate elsewhere, then how does the military of Ironhlods setting function, providing itself with weapons that are capable of defending itself against Interstellar civilisation? To be honest a planet that is unable to control the space around itself is in real trouble, take for example Larry Nivens book 'Footfall', you do not need to,orbit a planet to bombard it just go to,the nearest asteroid field or the equivalent of the Kuiper belt or the Öort cloud and lob rocks inwards. 1990s technology would not protect against that . Unless you come up with a reason that others do not do that, take Dune were the use of Atomics against living targets has been banned by treaties and anyone using them is punished,
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2016 14:39:26 GMT
but what if it was decided that Earth was no longer a going concern, and Napa Valley and their peers all packed up and left. if a pullout of the nature I am thinking of, there would be four categories: valuable skills, low value skills, high value-to-load materiel, and low value-to-load materiel. valuable skills and materiel would be worth transporting out, low value skills might or might not buy passage to move out, but low value materiel would probably be left. - and in a case like this, wouldn't be worth the expense of "demilitarizing" a good example from here would be that if a homesteader abandoned their homestead, they typically wouldn't waste the effort to tear down their cabin. If all that were left on the planet were those that were too poor and to unskilled to emigrate elsewhere, then how does the military of Ironhlods setting function, providing itself with weapons that are capable of defending itself against Interstellar civilisation? To be honest a planet that is unable to control the space around itself is in real trouble, take for example Larry Nivens book 'Footfall', you do not need to,orbit a planet to bombard it just go to,the nearest asteroid field or the equivalent of the Kuiper belt or the Öort cloud and lob rocks inwards. 1990s technology would not protect against that . Unless you come up with a reason that others do not do that, take Dune were the use of Atomics against living targets has been banned by treaties and anyone using them is punished, part of the reason is there is not much return on investment for taking over the planet any more. there would certainly still be people interested in living there - mostly those who wanted to get away from it all, and they would have a need to defend their home against the sort of people who want to get away from THEM all - to whom a backwater ghost planet would seem like a good hideout. think of some of the islands we used for leapfrog bases in the pacific theatre in WWII. www.airfields-freeman.com/HI/Airfields_W_Pacific.htm#kure
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 29, 2016 17:12:16 GMT
You might also in this context see military personal retiring to such a world. So you could have a fairly strong foundation on which to build a military. Retired military personal might also have been the ones who helped organize things at the beginning. That would actually make sense if the former civilian governments fell apart, as well as explaining why they might have military forces that are larger than they actually need to be.
Retired people need hobbies, coupled with their existing knowledge and data banks of information (libraries) there is no reason to think the ability to brew alcohol would be a lost art. This isn't a low tech world we are talking about, but one that regardless of its current technology base would have had access to data banks filled with information most of which would have nothing to do with the military. Unless we are talking about several centuries of neglect or major destruction (which would mean elimination of all major and most minor cities) anything useful or interesting is likely to have been picked up on and used.
That doesn't mean that they would be able to reproduce the more advanced technologies, as this would require other technologies, production/industrial bases and possibly materials they don't have. But they might well be able to maintain such technology as long as it doesn't get too badly damaged - which would explain higher end military equipment, but a lack of desire to use it. It would also play into any plots that require looking for technology to repair, say, spaceships. They might actually know how to repair the ships but lack some components to do so.
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