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Post by memeengine on Jun 4, 2015 16:34:49 GMT
In the specific case of the Character Horatio Hornblower, he joined the Navy relatively late as a Midshipman at the age of 17 As did the real-life Lord Thomas Cochrane, in 1793. Thanks to some dubious practice by (many) captains, it was entirely possible for a well-connected young gentleman to log several years at sea without ever setting foot on a boat or ship of any kind. In Cochrane's case his uncle, Alexander, logged his sea time (which allowed him to pass for lieutenant only a couple of years later) and his father bought him a commission into the 104th Foot - so while at self-learning at home he was technically an officer in both the Army and Navy without having actively served in either.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 4, 2015 16:40:35 GMT
Always nice to know a historical precedent. Thanks memeengine.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 4, 2015 16:47:20 GMT
In the specific case of the Character Horatio Hornblower, he joined the Navy relatively late as a Midshipman at the age of 17, and the cargo of rice was the second incident of note in his career, according to Wiki. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Midshipman_Hornblowerso the plot of the story used his inexperience as a plot point, but the naval ranking system of the time makes it plausible the captain would expect a certain degree of competence. Yes I guess that is the point. It is similar to the pot later used by Bernard Cornwell,in Sharpes Rifles, an Aristocrat is insulted to be given Sharpe as an Escort, he is far too old in normal circumstances to,be that junior an officer, an Ensign, so he must be incompetent, where as in fact he had been unusually promoted from the ranks for bravery. One side fact about Sharpe, in the books he was not a Northerner but a Southerner from Essex, hence his regiment the South Essex. the actor originally cast to play him was injured at the last moment and Sean Bean was a last minute replacement but was unable to to the correct accent for the length of filming required, so Sharpe became a Yorkshireman.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 4, 2015 18:07:05 GMT
In the specific case of the Character Horatio Hornblower, he joined the Navy relatively late as a Midshipman at the age of 17 As did the real-life Lord Thomas Cochrane, in 1793. Thanks to some dubious practice by (many) captains, it was entirely possible for a well-connected young gentleman to log several years at sea without ever setting foot on a boat ro ship of any kind. In Cochrane's case his uncle, Alexander, logged his sea time (which allowed him to pass for lieutenant only a couple of years later) and his father bought him a commission into the 104th Foot - so while at self-learning at home he was technically an officer in both the Army and Navy without having actively served in either. The difference between the army and the navy was that while you could buy a commission in the former. The latter required that you could show the skills needed to sail a ship and commissions were NOT for sale under any circumstances what-so-ever. You also needed to have your name put forward to take the exam, usually by your commanding officer but highly placed friends such as an Admiral helped too. This actually worked to check those who lacked the knowledge and skills required for a naval officer from getting commissions before they were ready. Even the most well respected Admiral would think twice about pushing for one of his followers to be promoted unless he was very sure they would not only pass, but did in fact possess the required skills. To do so damaged their own reputations, which in turn limited how much influence they had in such matters. Showing that you had a good eye for skilled officers, and could train the young gentlemen to a decent standard for the future navy, could help your chances of getting a command and certainly helped in drawing the better quality of officers to your commands. That in turn meant that you were much more likely to perform well, or at least not perform badly. Being a gentlemen or well connected certainly helped getting a commission in the Navy, but more because your skills and exploits were less likely to be overlooked than because it would allow you to get rubber stamped. In the navy those officers (which included midshipmen) not actively employed were placed on half-pay. As this was not usually enough to live off many had to find other jobs while they waited and prayed for active service. Some ended up joining and captaining ships from the East India Company, others bought commissions in the army or if they had performed a particularly notable service they might be given a commission in the Marines. There is at least one case of a Post Captain in the Navy also being the Captain of Marines on his own ship - one assumes he delegated day to day running of the marines to the next senior Marine officer. Others might go off and take positions in other (friendly, or at least not hostile) navies. (In fact wasn't Cochrane an Admiral in at least two other navies as well as the Royal Navy?)
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Post by memeengine on Jun 4, 2015 18:13:37 GMT
ability counted for a great deal, in practice more than parentage. (As evidenced by the future George IV being kept on shore after a single cruise as a Captain). I'm not sure who you're referring to there. King George IV never went to sea in any capacity. His brother, Prince William Henry (who became Duke of Clarence and then King William IV), did serve in the Navy, starting from the age of 13 as a midshipman. However, while his rise through the ranks was no doubt speeded by his noble status, he did more than "a single cruise as a Captain" and was removed from active service (when Rear Admiral) for reasons related to his politicial beliefs and doubts over his suitability as a fleet commander rather than because of any lack of nautical ability.
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Post by memeengine on Jun 4, 2015 18:19:37 GMT
In fact wasn't Cochrane an Admiral in at least two other navies as well as the Royal Navy? He served in the Chilean, Brazilian and Greek Navies before returning to the Royal Navy (once he'd been forgiven for his political and, possibly, criminal activities).
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Post by memeengine on Jun 4, 2015 18:25:40 GMT
so the plot of the story used his inexperience as a plot point, but the naval ranking system of the time makes it plausible the captain would expect a certain degree of competence. One side fact about Sharpe, in the books he was not a Northerner but a Southerner from Essex, hence his regiment the South Essex. the actor originally cast to play him was injured at the last moment and Sean Bean was a last minute replacement but was unable to to the correct accent for the length of filming required, so Sharpe became a Yorkshireman. In fact, Bernard Cornwell liked Bean's portrayal of Sharpe so much that he changed the character's back story in the books to fit with the TV actor's accent.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 5, 2015 3:39:26 GMT
One side fact about Sharpe, in the books he was not a Northerner but a Southerner from Essex, hence his regiment the South Essex. the actor originally cast to play him was injured at the last moment and Sean Bean was a last minute replacement but was unable to to the correct accent for the length of filming required, so Sharpe became a Yorkshireman. In fact, Bernard Cornwell liked Bean's portrayal of Sharpe so much that he changed the character's back story in the books to fit with the TV actor's accent. Yes he had him sent to,Yorkshire as a boy. I do wonder how much it actually was a marketing idea, to tie the books and TV series together more though.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 5, 2015 7:42:44 GMT
Taking a "prize" ship, at risk of loss of life to crew, you would expect they already had a game plan to ensure the thing got to port without further loss.
My whole point is that they had enough problems without taking unnecessary risks...
Unless you are in sight of port and can oversee, and wanted a quick training session for a junior officer, you would pick someone you can trust and maybe had a proven track record of taking the wheel (Or whatever your rudder system was) before you gave them their own command...?...
Or was the [main] ship that short handed they couldnt spare anyone else.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 5, 2015 7:50:00 GMT
And this is where we mix up "Tradition" with our modern term of Darwinism. Tradition states all that Cyber says (So far) from historical records, why was it done that way is because of Darwinism, those who didnt do it that way, failed, and came to a nasty end.
This is why Royal Navy officers were the best, they HAD been trained to be the best, its an important part that they had the training, and the Captain who trained them staked his reputation on that. Of course, there were good captains and bad, but even the bad ones needed a good crew, and even better officers to protect his backside.
The ones that were not the best tended to not get very far. Unless it was a quick trip to visit Davy Jones.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 5, 2015 10:28:33 GMT
Taking a "prize" ship, at risk of loss of life to crew, you would expect they already had a game plan to ensure the thing got to port without further loss. My whole point is that they had enough problems without taking unnecessary risks... Unless you are in sight of port and can oversee, and wanted a quick training session for a junior officer, you would pick someone you can trust and maybe had a proven track record of taking the wheel (Or whatever your rudder system was) before you gave them their own command...?... Or was the [main] ship that short handed they couldnt spare anyone else. The ship Hornblower was on was did not have had a large compliment of Officers, Cybermortis and others can say exactly how many in real,life, but the book says 3 Lieutenants and it was as part of the blockade of France's trade in a conflict zone. The Captain may have thought it was better to risk,giving the prize to a junior officer rather than send a more experienced one that might later be needed in a more serious situation. iIRC the ship was captured in the Bay of Biscay, and it is a relatively simple sail from there to a safe English port.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 5, 2015 10:57:36 GMT
Hornblowers ship was HMS Indefatigable, a real 44 gun heavy frigate that had been cut down from an old line ship. Off the top of my head I think a frigate of this size would have had two lieutenants. However since she was so large (44 guns ships were rare in the RN at this time, the standard frigates were 36 and 38 gun ships) and had some spectacular successes it is possible that she may have been allowed to carry three.
As I said before, unless the prize was considered exceptionally valuable or required a large crew - say a captured man of war - it was unusual for command to be given to a lieutenant. This is because you'd have to do without their services until you sailed into that port to pick them up, which could be several weeks. Ships could afford to 'loose' a couple of midshipmen or masters mates as they had a fair few, and midshipmen were almost by definition not capable of taking over lieutenants duties in full. Lieutenants on the other hand could take over midshipman's duties easy enough...after all they would have been midshipmen not that long ago. So all things being equal, and for the average prize, you didn't want to send off some of your most valuable assets if you could help it. This is not to say that Lieutenants didn't end up taking fairly minor prizes into port. Just that if they did the Captain was either intending to return to port very shortly, or just wanted an unsuitable officer off his ship.
The majority of prizes taken were merchant ships, who would have been sailing between ports on well known routes. Indeed it is highly likely that every professional sailor on-board wuold have sailed the exact same route at least once on such a ship, at least in European waters. Merchant ships typically used rough and ready navigation to sail to within site of land, and then use known landmarks to navigate towards their destination. So most such prizes would have been within a few days sail, maybe a week, of a port. Even battles at this point were fought comparatively close to land if not in sight of it with a few exceptions. So again navigation was fairly easy even for a relative novice since you would know exactly where you were and what direction you needed to sail to reach a friendly port.
As for the wheel. Ships had been using the wheel, rather than a tiller, since the early to mid 1600's. The exact date, or even where it was first used, isn't known as for some reason this rather major advance in ship design wasn't noted as existing until long after it had become standard on ships.
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Post by memeengine on Jun 5, 2015 15:58:30 GMT
]The ship Hornblower was on was did not have had a large compliment of Officers, Cybermortis and others can say exactly how many in real,life, but the book says 3 Lieutenants and it was as part of the blockade of France's trade in a conflict zone. Although slightly later than the period in the novel, the officer's quarter bill for the Indefatigable from 1812 lists a total of 4 Lieutenants and 9 midshipmen (plus the usual complement of warrant officers).
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 5, 2015 16:34:03 GMT
Although slightly later than the period in the novel, the officer's quarter bill for the Indefatigable from 1812 lists a total of 4 Lieutenants and 9 midshipmen (plus the usual complement of warrant officers). I'm wondering if the ship might not have been allowed to carry an extra lieutenant due to her actions alongside HMS Amazon (?) that resulted in the sinking of a French ship of the line. Or if the Navy might not have been experimenting by adding an additional officer to those ships that had the space for them. I've not seen or heard anything about the number of officers increasing on ships in this period, but then most of what I've read in this regards concentrate on the decreasing overall complement and the number of officers who were effectively unemployed due to there not being enough positions for them. It would make sense for the navy to consider addressing this by adding an additional officer to ships, or maybe they were willing to allow a Captain to take an extra officer if he asked.
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Post by maxman on Jul 30, 2015 23:40:50 GMT
The book notes Hornblower was probably selected purely because he was closest to Pellew at the time, for what it's worth.
There was also the Naval Academy, which occasionally assigned ships "Young Gentlemen" who may or may not have been to sea, as happens in Hornblower and the Hotspur. A subplot is Bush's interactions with them.
Unless peace was signed before the promotion could be confirmed, as happens to Hornblower at the end of Lieutenant Hornblower. He is also put on pay stoppage rather than half pay to pay back the wages he received as an acting-commander.
Another possibility for promotion was from an outgoing commander-in-chief, who was given three unquestioned promotions: Midshipman to Lieutenant, Lieutenant to Commander, Commander to Captain. Presumably these had to be to three separate officers. This also happens to Hornblower at the end of Hornblower and the Hotspur, in recognition of his missing out on capturing the Spanish treasure fleet and instead engaging a larger French frigate to stop it from assisting the treasure fleet.
Unless they lived to 50, at which point they would be automatically promoted to lieutenant. Usually they did take the exam and failed, often multiple times.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 31, 2015 2:07:10 GMT
I've never heard of this.
I have heard of departing Admirals and Commodore's* somewhat abusing their authority by promoting quite a lot of men shortly before leaving a station, quite often followers or those who were friends sons. Nor were such promotions totally unquestioned. The tradition was for the Admiralty to sign off on promotions, and it was very unusual for them to deny any such advancements. But it did happen on rare occasions, or they signed off but never gave the new officer a sea-command.
Midshipman to Lieutenant was not a promotion any Admiral could make unless the individual had passed the exam. They could put someone forward for the exam. But the Admiralty would outright refuse a promotion unless or until they had taken and passed it.
(*Commodore in the Royal Navy was the most senior Post-Captain, either by seniority or by posting, in a fleet. This was a position, not a rank, until 1998. In essence the Post-Captain became an acting Admiral for the duration. The position originated in merchant fleets, but the Royal Navy started to use it due to the limited number of Admirals they had** and the even smaller number of those Admirals who were fit to go to sea. Let alone capable fleet commanders. By creating the position of Commodore the Admiralty was able to find and deploy capable fleet commanders from the Post-Captains list.)
(**The number of Admirals allowed in each rank was set by law, and since promotion was purely by seniority from Post-Captain upwards this meant that Admirals tended to be old, and in a depressingly large number of cases hadn't been to sea in decades.)
The basis for the way the navy worked in theory and for the most part was mutual self interest. It wasn't in the interest of a senior officer to try and promote officers who were incapable, since they would probably have to serve with them. It was in fact in an officers best interests to foster skilled officers he could surround himself with, and you tend to see that senior officers were followed by the same junior officers. For example Sir Thomas Hardy is best known as Nelsons Flag-Captain on HMS Victory. But in fact he'd known and served under Nelson since 1796 and was Nelsons flag-Captain on five different ships. An Admirals success on a station (and the amount of prize money they made) depended on the success of the captains under their command. So both from the professional and personal view no Admiral wanted to have commanders who were not capable.
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Post by maxman on Aug 9, 2015 1:36:08 GMT
Like I said, that's what the book claims, specifically Admiral Cornwallis.
Then again, in the previous book Hornblower and Bush are almost swept up by a press gang.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 9, 2015 2:09:35 GMT
Press gangs didn't run around England like a pack of locusts grabbing up any man too slow to get away. The navy was only interested in those who were seamen, and the law itself specifically restricted impressment to those who made a living from the sea. (The actual language used was rather vague, and while clearly intended to mean professional sailors could cover anyone from the crews of whalers to a ferryman.)
There was also some debate and concern as to how legal impressment actually was, and the navy itself wasn't keen on doing anything that might result in this particular question being brought to light.
So in practice the press gangs worked more though arrangements made with local authorities and ship owners, plus bounties being offered for those who volunteered. (Of course quite how many 'volunteered' after the fact is unknown...) Operating as independent agents tended not to turn out well, since local authorities were less than helpful if they ran into trouble and in several cases would actually arrest the officers in question for kidnapping.
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Post by maxman on Aug 9, 2015 2:16:39 GMT
To the book's credit, it does make it a point to state the men being pressed were professional sailors.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 9, 2015 12:37:14 GMT
The problem when looking at the aspects of the navy relating to the men, from impressment to living conditions, is that the navy was often used to discuss social issues in Britain without actually saying anything was wrong with Britain itself. For example those opposed to capital punishment often used (or mildly fantasized) examples of punishments used at sea. They ignored the fact that naval floggings were rarer and less harsh than floggings in the army.
If you look at the complaints made during the Spithead mutiny neither flogging or the impress service are mentioned. In fact the basic complaints were about wages (which had not been changed in a century), food (which was not only reasonable but in the navies best interest and something they considered of vital importance anyway) and lack of respect from a handful of named officers in the fleet (off the top of my head about a dozen, if that, out of roughly a hundred officers in the fleet). Sailors seem to have considered the impress service as an occupational hazard, and been more angered when they were taken from merchant ships before they got to shore and could pick up their wages or go see their families.
There were cases of landsmen being picked up, but when the navy found out about this they released the individual as soon as they could. As I said they were only allowed to take those who 'made a living of the sea', and the legality of that was questionable to start with. If they kept landsmen the navy itself could be taken to court for kidnapping, and they more or less treated it as such while understanding that mistakes did happen.
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