|
|
Post by silverdragon on May 31, 2015 9:09:46 GMT
Can you boil water with sound?... Peter Davey thinks you can, but is it real boiling.?... merlib.org/node/5504 |
|
|
|
Post by watcher56 on May 31, 2015 21:51:24 GMT
Water takes a certain amount of energy to heat it from whatever to it's boiling temperature. Then it take a great deal more energy to convert it from a liquid to a gas.
It does not matter where that energy comes from - it can be heat absorbed from an external flame, it can be absorption from microwaves, it can be absorption of acoustic waves. If the water absorbs enough energy it will boil. If not, it will not boil.
But (ultra)sonic heating is nothing new or particularly efficient.
|
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Aug 4, 2015 21:36:09 GMT
Sound energy can heat up the water to boil it.
But what really happens here is that moving water can vaporise faster.
The surface tension prevents that water molecules can escape unless they are fast enough. Heat makes water molecules move. Heat is the movement of atoms and molecules. The hotter the water, the more molecules that are fast enough to be able to break the surface tension.
Using ultrasonic waves, tiny ripples are created, the surface becomes much larger. The chance that a fast molecule hits the surface increases so more water can vaporize.
If the sound intensity is great enough, the ripples on the water break up, atomizing the water.
Another effect is that sound is nothing but changes in air pressure. The lower the pressure, the faster water can boil. If sound waves are intense enough, some water does really boil but condenses almost instantly since it has not enough (heat) energy to stay gaseous. While this doesn't really produce steam, this cavitation effect stores the sound energy inside the water so the sound keeps running through the water until it really does something.
Some air humidifiers use ultrasonic sound. Those are the ones which produce the "fancy" heavy fog, usually illuminated by colourful LEDs. The white (heavy) cloud isn't steam at all. It is very cold since the microscopic droplets of the fog keep vaporizing which consumes heat energy from the environment.
A good "fog humidifier" uses 10W/cm³, this is a sound energy density about 5 million times as in your living room while watching TV.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 26, 2015 14:32:56 GMT
heat up a pan to glowing and toss a tablespoon of water into it and you will see that light can boil water much more quickly than sound.
|
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Aug 26, 2015 16:53:08 GMT
Nothing new. In addition to ultrasonics, you can also use an acoustic mixer. These are mixers that have a powerful, and highly directional speaker attached to the bottom of the container. the speaker causes the container to vibrate and mix whatever in inside. This mixing action does heat the contents and if you are using water, it will eventually heat it enough to boil.
|
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Aug 26, 2015 17:05:21 GMT
The article is so vague, it's impossible to tell what is going on. It may not even be sound doing the heating. Doesn't really sound(no pun)like any major breakthrough to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Aug 30, 2015 8:41:13 GMT
The article is so vague, it's impossible to tell what is going on. It may not even be sound doing the heating. Doesn't really sound(no pun)like any major breakthrough to me. Exactly... we LIKE vague on here, can MB's find out what really is going on? |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Sept 5, 2015 23:35:49 GMT
I think the real myth in this one is the claimed energy output. 2000% the input?
I don't know where or how this guy got his measurements and I'm certainly no authority when it comes to physics, but that sounds a little too incredible to me to even be remotely true!
Wouldn't that break Newton's third law? 2000% output doesn't exactly sound like "an equal and opposite reaction" to me and even though there are probably more advanced laws of thermodynamics involved that I know nothing about, it seems to me that you can boil it down (pun intended) to a simple question of motion.
If anything in this is worth testing, it's that claim. Is there any way that you - by use of sound waves - can extract more energy than you put in?
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 1:58:04 GMT
I think the real myth in this one is the claimed energy output. 2000% the input? I don't know where or how this guy got his measurements and I'm certainly no authority when it comes to physics, but that sounds a little too incredible to me to even be remotely true! Wouldn't that break Newton's third law? 2000% output doesn't exactly sound like "an equal and opposite reaction" to me and even though there are probably more advanced laws of thermodynamics involved that I know nothing about, it seems to me that you can boil it down (pun intended) to a simple question of motion. If anything in this is worth testing, it's that claim. Is there any way that you - by use of sound waves - can extract more energy than you put in? Hmmm, more energy out than in... |
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Sept 6, 2015 10:19:57 GMT
I think the real myth in this one is the claimed energy output. 2000% the input? I don't know where or how this guy got his measurements and I'm certainly no authority when it comes to physics, but that sounds a little too incredible to me to even be remotely true! Wouldn't that break Newton's third law? 2000% output doesn't exactly sound like "an equal and opposite reaction" to me and even though there are probably more advanced laws of thermodynamics involved that I know nothing about, it seems to me that you can boil it down (pun intended) to a simple question of motion. If anything in this is worth testing, it's that claim. Is there any way that you - by use of sound waves - can extract more energy than you put in? Hmmm, more energy out than in... Gives me an idea, steam turbine. Perpetual motion finally cracked. |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Sept 6, 2015 10:27:47 GMT
Hmmm, more energy out than in... Gives me an idea, steam turbine. Perpetual motion finally cracked. That was mentioned in the article as a possible use of the technology. I highly doubt it, since one of the besic commandments of the Universe is "Thou shalt not extract more energy than thou puttest in", but it would still make for some interesting TV to see Adam and Jamie build and test this thing. |
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Sept 6, 2015 10:57:41 GMT
Problem would be that they already decided perpetual motion machines to be ooogie-booogie mythological busts in their own category of dont-waste-our-time-with-these....?...
|
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Sept 6, 2015 12:11:09 GMT
Problem would be that they already decided perpetual motion machines to be ooogie-booogie mythological busts in their own category of dont-waste-our-time-with-these....?... But there's no talk of perpetual motion here. A steam engine, however efficient, is not a perpetual motion machine. To make this a perpetual motion machine, two things are required: 1: The steam that powers the turbines must be condensed back into water that can then be boiled again to produce more steam to power the turbine and so on and so forth. And that's 100% of the steam. No loss at all. If you have to replenish the water supply at any time, even if that's 10 years after you first start the machine, it's not perpetual. It's really really efficient, but it's not perpetual. 2: The energy output must be at least equal to the energy input, so the electricity produced by the turbine can be routed back to continously power the boiler. And that's equal energy output AFTER deducting loss from friction and heat. If the boiler is powered by an outside power source, it's not a perpetual motion machine. If this thing truly produces a 2000% energy output, that shouldn't be a problem, but that still leaves us with problem #1. Besides, the super high-efficiency steam engine is the article author's offshoot from what he originally reported on, which was simply boiling water with sound. The old man who invented this thing is never quoted as suggesting anything like perpetual motion. He just calls it a very efficient way to boil the exact amount of water you need. In fact, I believe the 2000% energy output is also a claim made by the author and not the old man himself, so I see no reason why this should be called "oogie boogie" and therefore not tested. |
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Sept 6, 2015 12:12:22 GMT
In most power plants, no matter if oil, coal or nuclear powered, a lot of energy is put into water in form of heat. The energy causes the water to transform into steam which carries the energy by high pressure and flow.
In the past, they had to put a lot of extra energy into the steam since when too much energy is removed from the steam, the steam condenses. When some steam condenses, water drops appear in the steam which damage the turbines. with the turbine blades and the steam moving very fast, water drops hit the blades real hard which is like sandblasting with gravel and would destroy the turbine.
To prevent this, a lot of extra energy must be added to the steam (superheated steam) and the turbine can't extract much of the total energy or the turbine would be destroyed. You all have seen those power plants on TV. Built until the early 1970s, those plants became abandoned since their net efficiency was 20% at best. There were hundreds all over the US and most were just abandoned and a lot of them are still there today. They are often used as a movie set for SiFi and B-movies since they have large rooms crammed with pipes and switchboard cabinets. E.g. the research facilities in the McGyver TV series are usually filmed in various abandoned power plants.
Modern power plants are basically the same but contain two or more extra sets of turbine. Classic powerful hot-steam turbines which then feed other turbines running slower and using special blades to deal with the wet steam. The latest state of the art power plants can reach 46% net efficiency with ideal load.
When you "boil" water with sound, it's not boiling at all. Its atomizing the water mechanically and not adding much energy to the water. The result is a cold fog with no pressure at all. The vaporizing water takes heat energy from the environment so you gain energy in the system by including environmental heat but without flow and pressure, the fog is totally useless for a turbine. Trying to harvest the morning mist would be a far better idea and is as impossible.
And even if the sound method would actually produce pressurized steam, you need to put in more than twice as much energy into the steam than you can harvest by a turbine powered generator.
|
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Sept 6, 2015 12:19:35 GMT
In most power plants, no matter if oil, coal or nuclear powered, a lot of energy is put into water in form of heat. The energy causes the water to transform into steam which carries the energy by high pressure and flow. In the past, they had to put a lot of extra energy into the steam since when too much energy is removed from the steam, the steam condenses. When some steam condenses, water drops appear in the steam which damage the turbines. with the turbine blades and the steam moving very fast, water drops hit the blades real hard which is like sandblasting with gravel and would destroy the turbine. To prevent this, a lot of extra energy must be added to the steam (superheated steam) and the turbine can't extract much of the total energy or the turbine would be destroyed. You all have seen those power plants on TV. Built until the early 1970s, those plants became abandoned since their net efficiency was 20% at best. There were hundreds all over the US and most were just abandoned and a lot of them are still there today. They are often used as a movie set for SiFi and B-movies since they have large rooms crammed with pipes and switchboard cabinets. E.g. the research facilities in the McGyver TV series are usually filmed in various abandoned power plants. Modern power plants are basically the same but contain two or more extra sets of turbine. Classic powerful hot-steam turbines which then feed other turbines running slower and using special blades to deal with the wet steam. The latest state of the art power plants can reach 46% net efficiency with ideal load. When you "boil" water with sound, it's not boiling at all. Its atomizing the water mechanically and not adding much energy to the water. The result is a cold fog with no pressure at all. The vaporizing water takes heat energy from the environment so you gain energy in the system by including environmental heat but without flow and pressure, the fog is totally useless for a turbine. Trying to harvest the morning mist would be a far better idea and is as impossible. Right. Making water bubble and vaporize is not necessarily the same as making it boil. I can make water bubble by putting a straw in it and blowing, but that's not boiling. If I suck some of the water into the straw and blow it out into the air really hard, I can make it vaporize (to some extent), but that's not boiling. That's what they'd be testing here. Is it really boiling, or is it doing something else entirely? And if it's doing something else entirely, what's it actually doing? |
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Sept 6, 2015 12:39:02 GMT
That's what they'd be testing here. Is it really boiling, or is it doing something else entirely? And if it's doing something else entirely, what's it actually doing? Ultrasonic air humidifiers are used to cool down the area. The atomized water steals heat from the air to truly vaporize. This effect was also used in classic A/C units. The trouble is that this uses up a lot of water and the always moist and warm parts of the A/C unit breed legionella bacteria. Nowadays ultrasonic air humidifiers are often used to keep cool during hot summer days since they don't need much electric power and unlike the classic A/C units they don't need that much water either and the systems can't breed bacteria. Here's a video: The owners didn't install it to have extra heat in summer, they installed it to keep cool during summer. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 14:13:12 GMT
Hmmm, more energy out than in... Gives me an idea, steam turbine. Perpetual motion finally cracked. That was sort of my implication. |
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Sept 6, 2015 14:18:04 GMT
Ultrasonic air humidifiers are used to cool down the area. The atomized water steals heat from the air to truly vaporize. This effect was also used in classic A/C units. The trouble is that this uses up a lot of water and the always moist and warm parts of the A/C unit breed legionella bacteria. Nowadays ultrasonic air humidifiers are often used to keep cool during hot summer days since they don't need much electric power and unlike the classic A/C units they don't need that much water either and the systems can't breed bacteria. The owners didn't install it to have extra heat in summer, they installed it to keep cool during summer. 25 years ago, I designed a control system for an HVAC system used in data center computer rooms. The system had a humidifier to add humidity when needed. The humidifier was nothing more than a small pan with a heating element in it. When humidification was called for, the heater would turn on and boil the water. There was a float valve that kept the pan full of water. It wasn't very efficient from a power standpoint, but they had tried ultrasonic humidifiers but they would leave a power residue on the computer equipment from impurities in the water. With the boiler humidifier, the impurities were left in the pan. The control system would flush the pan every 24 hours of use to get rid of the impurities. The ultrasonic system could have worked if the water was distilled first but a distiller would have taken as much power as boiling the water in the first place. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 14:21:09 GMT
In most power plants, no matter if oil, coal or nuclear powered, a lot of energy is put into water in form of heat. The energy causes the water to transform into steam which carries the energy by high pressure and flow. In the past, they had to put a lot of extra energy into the steam since when too much energy is removed from the steam, the steam condenses. When some steam condenses, water drops appear in the steam which damage the turbines. with the turbine blades and the steam moving very fast, water drops hit the blades real hard which is like sandblasting with gravel and would destroy the turbine. To prevent this, a lot of extra energy must be added to the steam (superheated steam) and the turbine can't extract much of the total energy or the turbine would be destroyed. You all have seen those power plants on TV. Built until the early 1970s, those plants became abandoned since their net efficiency was 20% at best. There were hundreds all over the US and most were just abandoned and a lot of them are still there today. They are often used as a movie set for SiFi and B-movies since they have large rooms crammed with pipes and switchboard cabinets. E.g. the research facilities in the McGyver TV series are usually filmed in various abandoned power plants. Modern power plants are basically the same but contain two or more extra sets of turbine. Classic powerful hot-steam turbines which then feed other turbines running slower and using special blades to deal with the wet steam. The latest state of the art power plants can reach 46% net efficiency with ideal load. When you "boil" water with sound, it's not boiling at all. Its atomizing the water mechanically and not adding much energy to the water. The result is a cold fog with no pressure at all. The vaporizing water takes heat energy from the environment so you gain energy in the system by including environmental heat but without flow and pressure, the fog is totally useless for a turbine. Trying to harvest the morning mist would be a far better idea and is as impossible. And even if the sound method would actually produce pressurized steam, you need to put in more than twice as much energy into the steam than you can harvest by a turbine powered generator. by using natural gas turbines as the heat source, we're getting up to 54% efficiency as of plants installed in 2001. not sure if we've gotten better than that, yet. that plant also produces heating steam, and I don't know if that is counted or not. it also uses processed wastewater as coolant, which produces airborne humidity. - and advantage where the plant is located. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 14:22:51 GMT
Ultrasonic air humidifiers are used to cool down the area. The atomized water steals heat from the air to truly vaporize. This effect was also used in classic A/C units. The trouble is that this uses up a lot of water and the always moist and warm parts of the A/C unit breed legionella bacteria. Nowadays ultrasonic air humidifiers are often used to keep cool during hot summer days since they don't need much electric power and unlike the classic A/C units they don't need that much water either and the systems can't breed bacteria. The owners didn't install it to have extra heat in summer, they installed it to keep cool during summer. 25 years ago, I designed a control system for an HVAC system used in data center computer rooms. The system had a humidifier to add humidity when needed. The humidifier was nothing more than a small pan with a heating element in it. When humidification was called for, the heater would turn on an boil the water. There was a float valve that kept the pan full of water. It wasn't very efficient from a power standpoint, but they had tried ultrasonic humidifiers but they would leave a power residue on the computer equipment from impurities in the water. With the boiler humidifier, the impurities were left in the pan. The control system would flush the pan every 24 hours of use to get rid of the impurities. The ultrasonic system could have worked if the water was distilled first but a distiller would have taken as much power as boiling the water in the first place. and if you had removed the condensor from the distiller, you would have achieved the same net effect as the system you built. |
|
