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Post by OziRiS on Jun 10, 2015 17:11:10 GMT
the video - first, is skimpy on details, and second, is about a throttle jam rather than a brake failure. Either way, the discussion rages. Pump or don't pump? I see potential for laying common misconceptions to rest and that was the original premise of the show.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 10, 2015 18:00:54 GMT
OK, some advice here - keeping in mind that the Bothan has occasionally waxed lyrical about reasons for ideas not being picked up and/or the kinds of thing they look at.
A&J like to be as hands on as possible, or if you like they want to have as much fun making episodes as viewers get from watching their antics. So they'd want to be driving the vehicle themselves if at all possible.
That also leads into the visual element of ideas. From the standpoint of direction and production they would much prefer to have some good visuals to go along with the testing. In the case of driving myths that would mean filming on location, probably at Alameda, where they have a good background in which to frame shots and where you can get a much better idea of distance (and speed if the setup is done right, which it usually is).
Both of these points mean that they couldn't and would refuse to do any tests that involved disabling the brake system or otherwise removed their ability to safely stop the vehicle. They might well be able to design a separate braking system. But, well, I really can't see them, or the insurance company, being all that happy at the idea of putting their lives in the hands of something they knocked up in the shop. This would also hold for an RC control rig, in that there is no way they would want to let a ton of steel go rolling anywhere without some means of stopping it from hitting anything.
Now what they could do, and would be much more practical (I'll come to why in a moment), is simply try to stop a car without using the brake pedal. That gives them an automatic safety system in place without having to do anything to the vehicle. As for why this would be good is simple - filming time.
It strikes me that the basic 'myths' are things that could be tested in full in a single day at the runway. In and of itself that would most likely raise interest in the idea. They are always looking for nice short ideas they can test in a day or two should the need arise, and this seems ideal. After all all they need to do is turn up with a couple of cars (Automatic and manual) and drive around for a few hours. The 'what can the Mythbusters come up with?' aspect might take a minimum of a day or two extra (one for the building, one for design). But this part is something that they can adjust to suit their needs. Its not like they have to do the design and build stages in the same week. Or for that matter the entire segment.
What is needed at this point is a list of 'mythical' techniques, ideally some from Film, TV or even the internet so they have the possibility of showing footage of exactly what they are testing rather than having to just tell us. These ideas need to be in keeping with the above (anything more dangerous, such as trying to stop a car by shooting it, could be added as well in case they have more time to set up such tests.) Once we have a nice list I think you can write this up so the shows researchers have all the information on one page.
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Post by wvengineer on Jun 11, 2015 0:37:10 GMT
With the idea of shooting the radiator to stop a car, since the idea is to put a hole in the radiator, it does not need to be shot from outside. You could shoot from the inside out. Rig up a gun inside the engine compartment that shots forward on command for the same effect. If you are concerned about shooting a bullet, then rig up an electric solenoid that shoots a plunger though the radiator on command and retracts to allow it to drain. Make sure the radiator is flushed before hand and filled with water to prevent antifreeze leakage into the environment.
I think the issue with this one is going to be more like how many miles until the engine finally looses water pressure, overheats, and ceases up.
Depending on the budget, this may not be practical because it would mean killing the engine. Anyone have a car to donate to "science"?
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 11, 2015 0:52:16 GMT
There are two parts to shooting at a car (three, if you include shooting out a tire). One is to blow the radiator, the other claim is about cracking the engine block. Both might actually be testable, just not at Alameda. In this case you could basically have the car moving along a rail track under its own power in a remote location and just shoot the front grill as it closes.
This wouldn't really be in keeping with what I see as the main selling point of the basic idea, that of a series of fun myths they could test out in a day of two. But is something they might consider if they wanted and could spend more time on the idea.
Still, I'd dismiss that idea as anything more than a post note to the main, errm, drive here.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 11, 2015 6:56:45 GMT
The average driver needs to be taught that the Handbrake is called Emergency brake in some countries for a bloody good reason. They would not think of using it unless they are taught advanced techniques.... Advanced techniques, when stopping hard in a straight line, as well as pressing HARD on the pedal, "swap cogs", and get ready to use handbrake as needed. Its an automatic reaction for me to drop a gear and use engine as well as brakes to slow down hard, and have my hand ready to engage handbrake if I start to get brake fail or overheating. My Handbrake uses different pads than my Footbrake.... but it doesnt have ABS.
Complaint... Push-button hand brakes. Are they all that good?.. No. I have no control over them, I cant use them to control the speed of my car.
In that case, ignition to off, but then back to "instruments" position so you dont engage the steering lock.
Learn how to do that. Also, he says "You would have to read the manual". What you didnt?.... If its YOUR car, NOT reading the manual is suicide.
Automatic, guaranteed, its harder to find neutral, but you should at least try. Manual, dip the clutch....?... YANK that stick out of gear?... stop, then dipping the key to off and back on again without hitting start just gives you your instruments and other powered bits. Like lights.
I have had a sudden acceleration due to broken throttle linkage, my auto-response stopped the truck in quick time, but controlled, it wasnt an emergency brake situation, it was pick a safe spot to pull over.
Panic is the worst thing you can do.
Brake pumping should only be done by those who know "cadence braking" on loose or frozen surfaces where you loose traction and the ABS cant cope. Braking fail by loss of pressure in the system, maybe a broken hose, yes, try pumping, but know that every time you pump you pump out a little more fluid, so sooner or later you will loose all fluids as well.
You have that handbrake dont you?.. ok, its not perfect, but its worth a go.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 11, 2015 7:09:21 GMT
Instead of shooting a "live" car, get a scrap radiator, shoot the thing on a range, and look at the size of the hole. Then with a water filled (no antifreeze) system, have a "dump valve" fitted that can be opened and let the water drain, on any closed track, keep driving normally until the engine fails. My guess is if you dont push too hard, the engine will just overheat and stop, and be recoverable afterwards... but then again, use a scrap vehicle that doesnt need to be used again?..
shoot the block... Get a small engine and set it up, running, on a range. Perhaps put the important bits you dont want to shoot behind some bullet proof steel plates?... Let fly with various weaponry, same as in the bit where they used a van covered with telephone directories, and see which weaponry "makes a hole". Perhaps wrap it in some "average" bodywork to simulate having to shoot through the bonnet/wings.
My guess would be that a .22 may just bounce off the engine block..... strap the engine down HARD, 'cos I recon that "magic 50 cal" will rock the thing off the stand.
If it continues to run, then try removing that bulletproofing, and see which part when shot will stop the car first
My guess is the Fuse box, or the Distributor, if it has one, that will be the best thing to shoot... Its also handily at the front on some engines.
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Post by the light works on Jun 11, 2015 14:29:56 GMT
The average driver needs to be taught that the Handbrake is called Emergency brake in some countries for a bloody good reason. They would not think of using it unless they are taught advanced techniques.... Advanced techniques, when stopping hard in a straight line, as well as pressing HARD on the pedal, "swap cogs", and get ready to use handbrake as needed. Its an automatic reaction for me to drop a gear and use engine as well as brakes to slow down hard, and have my hand ready to engage handbrake if I start to get brake fail or overheating. My Handbrake uses different pads than my Footbrake.... but it doesnt have ABS. Complaint... Push-button hand brakes. Are they all that good?.. No. I have no control over them, I cant use them to control the speed of my car. In that case, ignition to off, but then back to "instruments" position so you dont engage the steering lock. Learn how to do that. Also, he says "You would have to read the manual". What you didnt?.... If its YOUR car, NOT reading the manual is suicide. Automatic, guaranteed, its harder to find neutral, but you should at least try. Manual, dip the clutch....?... YANK that stick out of gear?... stop, then dipping the key to off and back on again without hitting start just gives you your instruments and other powered bits. Like lights. I have had a sudden acceleration due to broken throttle linkage, my auto-response stopped the truck in quick time, but controlled, it wasnt an emergency brake situation, it was pick a safe spot to pull over. Panic is the worst thing you can do. Brake pumping should only be done by those who know "cadence braking" on loose or frozen surfaces where you loose traction and the ABS cant cope. Braking fail by loss of pressure in the system, maybe a broken hose, yes, try pumping, but know that every time you pump you pump out a little more fluid, so sooner or later you will loose all fluids as well. You have that handbrake dont you?.. ok, its not perfect, but its worth a go. American automatics are the easiest thing in the world to find neutral in, because all you have to do is push the lever either up or forward. - the gear selection pawl lets it go from towards neutral from any driving position, either forward or reverse, but does not let it leave neutral without whatever motion is required to release the gear selection pawl.
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Post by the light works on Jun 11, 2015 14:32:39 GMT
Instead of shooting a "live" car, get a scrap radiator, shoot the thing on a range, and look at the size of the hole. Then with a water filled (no antifreeze) system, have a "dump valve" fitted that can be opened and let the water drain, on any closed track, keep driving normally until the engine fails. My guess is if you dont push too hard, the engine will just overheat and stop, and be recoverable afterwards... but then again, use a scrap vehicle that doesnt need to be used again?.. shoot the block... Get a small engine and set it up, running, on a range. Perhaps put the important bits you dont want to shoot behind some bullet proof steel plates?... Let fly with various weaponry, same as in the bit where they used a van covered with telephone directories, and see which weaponry "makes a hole". Perhaps wrap it in some "average" bodywork to simulate having to shoot through the bonnet/wings. My guess would be that a .22 may just bounce off the engine block..... strap the engine down HARD, 'cos I recon that "magic 50 cal" will rock the thing off the stand. If it continues to run, then try removing that bulletproofing, and see which part when shot will stop the car first My guess is the Fuse box, or the Distributor, if it has one, that will be the best thing to shoot... Its also handily at the front on some engines. I can say for a fact that a damaged distributor results in the vehicle coasting to a stop. shattering the battery will also put the fire out in many cases.
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Post by the light works on Jun 11, 2015 14:48:01 GMT
sudden flash of insight: it is a very common movie trope for the bad guys to either cut a brake line or pop the hood and unscrew a brake line fitting. - there is our base myth. would that really result in total brake failure, with the car racing out of control, plunging over a cliff and bursting into flames? they've already done the plunging over a cliff and bursting into flames part, so that just leaves the racing out of control part. - and with a good solid emergency bake (tested before sabotaging the brakes) they could presumably do this with a reasonable degree of safety at Alameda. - then carry it forward to what if they also lost the emergency brake - and do it on a car with working service brakes for safety.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 11, 2015 15:43:48 GMT
sudden flash of insight: it is a very common movie trope for the bad guys to either cut a brake line or pop the hood and unscrew a brake line fitting. - there is our base myth. would that really result in total brake failure, with the car racing out of control, plunging over a cliff and bursting into flames? they've already done the plunging over a cliff and bursting into flames part, so that just leaves the racing out of control part. - and with a good solid emergency bake (tested before sabotaging the brakes) they could presumably do this with a reasonable degree of safety at Alameda. - then carry it forward to what if they also lost the emergency brake - and do it on a car with working service brakes for safety. Sounds like a good starting myth that could easily fit most of what's already been proposed.
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Post by the light works on Jun 11, 2015 16:29:47 GMT
sudden flash of insight: it is a very common movie trope for the bad guys to either cut a brake line or pop the hood and unscrew a brake line fitting. - there is our base myth. would that really result in total brake failure, with the car racing out of control, plunging over a cliff and bursting into flames? they've already done the plunging over a cliff and bursting into flames part, so that just leaves the racing out of control part. - and with a good solid emergency bake (tested before sabotaging the brakes) they could presumably do this with a reasonable degree of safety at Alameda. - then carry it forward to what if they also lost the emergency brake - and do it on a car with working service brakes for safety. Sounds like a good starting myth that could easily fit most of what's already been proposed. good, that was what I was trying for.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 11, 2015 16:51:41 GMT
That a shot to the radiator might damage something other than the radiator itself, maybe cutting a fuel line or something that needs to be intact for the engine to continue running, is something I forgot to mention.
After all even if you do put a hole in the radiator the car isn't going to scream to a stop there and then.
This means that testing if you could stop a car by shooting it would require an engine that is still mounted in the engine compartment. That would allow them to see if a round could actually get through the radiator and do damage, and what type of round you'd need; The Hollywood standby here was usually the .44 magnum revolver. (Dirty Hyneman anyone?). It would also show if a round might bounce around the compartment and theoretically cut something you don't want it to cut.
That kind of testing might not be a problem, as the basic question is about if the engine keeps running (and/or for how long). For that they don't need the vehicle to be moving, just the engine to be running. So they could use a static rig and just as importantly they could use vehicles that have structural damage to the rear - say a car that was t-boned. That kind of vehicle isn't something they could drive, but if the engine still works it is fine for this kind of test and should be a lot cheaper than the vehicles they would need for the other tests.
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Post by the light works on Jun 12, 2015 0:44:29 GMT
That a shot to the radiator might damage something other than the radiator itself, maybe cutting a fuel line or something that needs to be intact for the engine to continue running, is something I forgot to mention. After all even if you do put a hole in the radiator the car isn't going to scream to a stop there and then. This means that testing if you could stop a car by shooting it would require an engine that is still mounted in the engine compartment. That would allow them to see if a round could actually get through the radiator and do damage, and what type of round you'd need; The Hollywood standby here was usually the .44 magnum revolver. (Dirty Hyneman anyone?). It would also show if a round might bounce around the compartment and theoretically cut something you don't want it to cut. That kind of testing might not be a problem, as the basic question is about if the engine keeps running (and/or for how long). For that they don't need the vehicle to be moving, just the engine to be running. So they could use a static rig and just as importantly they could use vehicles that have structural damage to the rear - say a car that was t-boned. That kind of vehicle isn't something they could drive, but if the engine still works it is fine for this kind of test and should be a lot cheaper than the vehicles they would need for the other tests. in that case they would want a front drive car, so they could still put it on a dynamometer, and run it under load.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 12, 2015 7:36:20 GMT
Cake bake or just Cookies?....
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 12, 2015 7:52:49 GMT
Agreed, but, the car shot doesnt have to be running. That way, inspect the damage, and replicate it in a running car, zero chance of anyone getting hurt by loose lead... Shooting at a car whilst someone else is driving it, for me, that belongs in the stupid thread?.. We are agreed on that, so static tests to be replicated on a running vehicle to see how long it runs for. If its an electrical component, a switch on the dash to turn it off would be just fine.
BTW, Some older cars I have driven, taking the battery off with the engine running works just fine, because the "alternator" is still supplying juice to the important parts of the engine. I did a "Hot swap" on a Mini once, I borrowed a battery to get it started, and had to hand it back once the engine was running... [Battery is in the boot, so no chance of engine damaging me whilst running.] So shooting the battery wont always cause a car to stop.
The test car for being shot at does not have to be a driver, just a runner, that way, they can test and test again on all parts to be tested that may get taken out by lead overload..... This is why I suggest two cars, one to be shot, and inspect what damage done, and one to replicate that damage in a controlled way, less chance of multiple failures and not being able to diagnose which was the first death-stroke.
Shoot, inspect, replicate.
If needs be, spray the whole of the car under the bonnet with paint first so you can see damage easier?... Except of course the air intake.
I have had a think... if you shoot out the fan in front of the radiator, (Obviously spinning hard if its an electrical one) what chance of the shrapnel from that causing MORE damage to the radiator than just one firearm round ? Obviously the car will overheat without a fan, but that may take a long time?.. How long in a MOVING car?...(air passing over radiator thats undamaged?..)
We need a possible list of damage points, which we can add to when we think of other things.
So far, fuel line, Distributor, Fan, Radiator, ECU (engine Control electronics) Fuse box, Fuel injection system, or Carburettor whichever fitted, Engine block if a larger round, Alternator/Battery, water pump?... What did I miss?.. and I know there must be lots.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 12, 2015 9:58:23 GMT
I think that we're getting sidetracked by the shooting idea. It is now clear that could be tested, but also that it would require much more set up both in location and build/design. Nothing they couldn't do, but clearly not at Alameda alongside the other ideas.
I suspect that the thought of potentially being able to film an entire segment in two or three days; assuming that they build and try their own designs. Well I think that would be the major selling point.
So, what is needed are various ways to stop a cars from inside and out both from the real world and from film and tv. Something that has footage would be a big plus if anyone can find a link to it.
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Post by the light works on Jun 12, 2015 14:16:01 GMT
Cake bake or just Cookies?.... I think a good crusty bread with fresh butter.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 13, 2015 6:06:37 GMT
Cake bake or just Cookies?.... I think a good crusty bread with fresh butter. So its YOU thats been leaving crumbs everywhere....
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Post by c64 on Jun 27, 2015 22:21:23 GMT
So, can you stop a car at 30mph in 100ft without using conventional brakes?.. Their proposal was what can you do if the brakes fail. Simple, buy a 1980s Audi 80 with automatic tranny and switch to "P". This car doesn't use a latch as was common for automatic transmissions back then, it has a very durable brake belt which can do this several times from 60 mph before it is shredded to bits. The VW passat B2 (the first car I owned) required (according to google earth) ~180 meters and a "turn left" sign braking from ~70kph on its hand brake alone. This was when the brake balance regulator blew up the moment I had stepped on the brake pedal pulling into a left turn lane...
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 28, 2015 9:04:44 GMT
Ouch.....
One thing I miss from my days owning a Lada was that it had Dual Circuit brakes.
I dont understand the bit on selecting "P", I presume thats "Park", of course, but, what does that do?... As you know, I aint a fan of Automatic transmission in smaller vehicles.
I am a fan of automatic in Trucks... I have been driving a few recently where its too bloody easy to change gear, and not miss a cog.... Except I cant persuade one of them to "block change", even though I dont need all the gears, it will insist I use them sequentially.
For instance, solo, or Bobtail, a more usual gear change to 30mph is 2,4, then high-ratio 2.
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