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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 26, 2017 16:04:59 GMT
I'm wondering if a cannonball with a hole through it might not have been an early type of bar-shot, at least in some cases? It may have been easier to drill a hole through the shot, or cast it that way, and put a bar through the hole and hold it in place with pegs or a pin. I know later bar-shot seems to have been cast in one go, but I'd suspect this was not the case early on.
The 'flaming rag' would NOT have been flaming when it was pushed down the barrel. Anyone walking the deck of a ship with a flaming rag, let alone going anywhere near bags of gunpowder, would have been beaten to death and thrown overboard there and then.
The rag would have been ignited by the combustion of the powder when the gun was fired, which was the way fused shells worked until the early to mid 1800's when impact fuses were developed.
The term 'demasting shot', which covers Bar-shot, chain-shot and so on is misleading. The intention was not to damage or shatter the masts themselves - the lower masts were around a foot thick of solid wood even on small ships, and some of the big line ships could have masts that were ten feet thick. Basically far to thick for even a direct hit from the guns of any ship they were willing to stand and fight to actually break.
The actual intention and use of demasting shot was to cut the sails and rigging. The latter could bring down the upper and top masts by removing their supports, and could do the same for the yards.
Aside from anything else the rigging and sails were far larger targets to aim for than the masts themselves.
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joe
Oompa-Loompa
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Post by joe on Dec 26, 2017 21:07:09 GMT
Bar shot, indeed. The Mary Rose website referred to it as "A good description is ‘spike shot’, but this term seems interchangeable with ‘crossbar shot’ within contemporary or near contemporary descriptions/inventories." Not all definitions of crossbar shot would include spike shot, but that would be a point of academic debate. Its purpose was the same: to wreak havoc on sail and rigging, and the term 'bar shot' (shortened from 'crossbar shot') seems perfectly appropriate.
Scanning through the Artifact Gallery there are other incendiary projectiles that were found in the wreck. So to answer Silverdragon's question of what they were trying to do, I'd have to say: whatever the circumstances of battle demanded or permitted. Sometimes you might want a trophy capture; sometimes you might need to lay waste to any opponent you can just to survive the melee. Having incendiary projectiles aboard gave the commander flexibility in tactics to suit the situation.
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Post by the light works on Dec 26, 2017 21:25:15 GMT
with the cannon being smoothbore, it would be expected the balls would tumble in flight. but now I am curious if they had some sort of wadding that kept the shot more or less aligned in the bore, or if they didn't worry bout the ends of the bar scraping the bore of the cannon. I think I recall there was mention of a fiber wad acting as a seal behind the ball, to get better muzzle velocity. (by which I mean I recall it being discussed that they pulled apart old rope to make this wadding, but I don't remember what thread) a deeper wad could be packed on the shot to keep it from rotating until it left the barrel.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 27, 2017 1:05:07 GMT
Wadding was used to hold the shot in place in order to achieve as close a seal between the powder and shot as is possible with hand-ramming. In the case of heated shot I *think* wadding was placed between the powder and shot to prevent the red hot shot from igniting the powder.
Is there any indication as to how large that 'spike shot' actually was? I'm wondering if it might not have been a form of grape/canister shot intended to be used against rigging rather than men?
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Post by the light works on Dec 27, 2017 2:03:28 GMT
Wadding was used to hold the shot in place in order to achieve as close a seal between the powder and shot as is possible with hand-ramming. In the case of heated shot I *think* wadding was placed between the powder and shot to prevent the red hot shot from igniting the powder. Is there any indication as to how large that 'spike shot' actually was? I'm wondering if it might not have been a form of grape/canister shot intended to be used against rigging rather than men? good question. I also became interested in the question of whether there was a connection between cast cannon and rifling. a quick wikipedia check on rifling says rifled gun barrels happened before 1500, but they didn't catch on until much later. - no good detail on what the early models were, though. |
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Post by ponytail61 on Dec 27, 2017 3:33:19 GMT
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Post by the light works on Dec 27, 2017 5:12:18 GMT
if the one with double spikes was made so the halves turned 90 degrees to each other, that would make it as big as possible when flying through the rigging. best chance of it snagging something. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 27, 2017 9:50:49 GMT
with the cannon being smoothbore, it would be expected the balls would tumble in flight. but now I am curious if they had some sort of wadding that kept the shot more or less aligned in the bore, or if they didn't worry bout the ends of the bar scraping the bore of the cannon. I think I recall there was mention of a fiber wad acting as a seal behind the ball, to get better muzzle velocity. (by which I mean I recall it being discussed that they pulled apart old rope to make this wadding, but I don't remember what thread) a deeper wad could be packed on the shot to keep it from rotating until it left the barrel. The discussion I believe was in the meaning of the saying "Money for old rope". In that, older members of the community would be paid to pick apart old rope to its constituent parts, the older the rope the better, in order to recycle it, for either wadding, or for caulking, the art of pushing rope between planks on the hull and deck to cover with tar for waterproofing. Wadding was used to hold the shot in place in order to achieve as close a seal between the powder and shot as is possible with hand-ramming. In the case of heated shot I *think* wadding was placed between the powder and shot to prevent the red hot shot from igniting the powder. Is there any indication as to how large that 'spike shot' actually was? I'm wondering if it might not have been a form of grape/canister shot intended to be used against rigging rather than men? Some discussion has been had that the heated shot was fired as we would now consider the modern Mortar shot, as in, upwards facing, drop round in, "De-ass the area with the quickness" and let it fire its self, indeed, would this not be the "tradition" behind us inventing a modern mortar that fire that way?. I can see where that may be coming from... You get the round to the lip, shout a warning, start the roll, and dive for cover...the round fires its self by igniting the gunpowder below. The round then "Arcs" up and over, more chance of it hitting something on its way down, firing up the canvas, and then drop down to also fire up the deck. That is if it doesnt set someone hair on fire inbetween?. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 27, 2017 14:36:41 GMT
with the cannon being smoothbore, it would be expected the balls would tumble in flight. but now I am curious if they had some sort of wadding that kept the shot more or less aligned in the bore, or if they didn't worry bout the ends of the bar scraping the bore of the cannon. I think I recall there was mention of a fiber wad acting as a seal behind the ball, to get better muzzle velocity. (by which I mean I recall it being discussed that they pulled apart old rope to make this wadding, but I don't remember what thread) a deeper wad could be packed on the shot to keep it from rotating until it left the barrel. The discussion I believe was in the meaning of the saying "Money for old rope". In that, older members of the community would be paid to pick apart old rope to its constituent parts, the older the rope the better, in order to recycle it, for either wadding, or for caulking, the art of pushing rope between planks on the hull and deck to cover with tar for waterproofing. Wadding was used to hold the shot in place in order to achieve as close a seal between the powder and shot as is possible with hand-ramming. In the case of heated shot I *think* wadding was placed between the powder and shot to prevent the red hot shot from igniting the powder. Is there any indication as to how large that 'spike shot' actually was? I'm wondering if it might not have been a form of grape/canister shot intended to be used against rigging rather than men? Some discussion has been had that the heated shot was fired as we would now consider the modern Mortar shot, as in, upwards facing, drop round in, "De-ass the area with the quickness" and let it fire its self, indeed, would this not be the "tradition" behind us inventing a modern mortar that fire that way?. I can see where that may be coming from... You get the round to the lip, shout a warning, start the roll, and dive for cover...the round fires its self by igniting the gunpowder below. The round then "Arcs" up and over, more chance of it hitting something on its way down, firing up the canvas, and then drop down to also fire up the deck. That is if it doesnt set someone hair on fire inbetween?. I would guess those were mostly fired from land. otherwise you risk firing your own sails on the way out. and I'd be inclined to challenge your theory of the mortar having more chance of hitting something on the way down. best chance of hitting something would be direct fire, as long as you had the range and velocity. mortars were for shooting over an obstruction or for stuff that was too far away for direct fire. sure, the mortar could hit MORE parts of the boat on the way down, but first you have to hit the boat at all. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 27, 2017 15:31:57 GMT
Heated-shot was solid shot placed in a furnace until it was glowing red, then it was loaded into a normal cannon and fired as any other type of solid shot. The aiming point was the hull, where it was hoped the shot would stick into the planking and set fire to it. (This seems not to have happened very often, at least the catching fire part)
Incendiary-shot was or would have been shot that would have either been on fire as it left the muzzle or ignited when it hit a target.
Mortar's were only used on specialized ships usually called 'Bomb-Ketches' or 'Bomb-vessels/ships'. Typically these were brigs or similar sized small warships specifically designed or rebuilt for the role. Such ships had to have major alterations from normal sailing ships to ensure that there was no rigging or sails in the way of the shell or for that matter the muzzle-blast. The references I can find seem to indicate that Bomb-Ships were specifically built or rebuilt for the role, rather than converted from an existing ship by moving a few ropes and adding a mortar.
Such ships seem to have been rather rare, and employed purely to bombard ports and sea fortifications, and not intended for naval combat. In fact I've only come across a single reference to a bomb-ship using its mortar against other ships in the early 1700's. That was a battle in the straights of Gibraltar during a calm, where it was noted that the bomb-ship in the fleet was ordered to open fire with its mortar. Although the conditions were perfect for this, over the course of an hour or so against targets that were basically stationary no hits were recorded.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 28, 2017 10:30:36 GMT
This is the problem with History, nailing down the invention of such technology, unless you are extreme accurate, you dont know exactly when, because so much was forgotten, and then when it is rediscovered, such as on the Mary Rose, which we have an almost exact date for its sinking, to within the hour, because it was recorded in accurate history books of the date, then we can nail down the existing technology to having been prior to that date...
And in that knowledge, the whole of what we know, can change in a heartbeat.
Such as this discovery of spiked shot on board.
There has been question of the nature of the Fire ships that Drake sent to mess with the Spanish.
We KNOW he sent them, but, so much is in question as to why, when, how...
Such as it has not yet been answered as to if they set booby-traps, there was suggestion they set cannon "with long fuse" on board hoping the cannon would although be sacrificed get in a lucky shot at the ships it was passing.
Mostly we suspect that he did it at night in order to force the spannish to cut away anchors in panic, thus no way of anchoring up the next night, and maybe force one or two ships to turn for port thinning the crowd, but mostly to cause a lot of mischief.
But we dont know for certain...
Of course, finding the wreck of those ships, may for certain answer a few questions.
But back mildly in the general direction of being on topic.
And this is the same as making a Martini by filling a glass with gin and waving it in the general direction of Rome...
Different types of shot, if we are to go for the obscure shot types and when and how they were used, we may have all seen at some time two cannon balls linked by a piece of chain.
Maybe its a cartoon version, maybe its another version, but the idea is it rotates wildly and wraps its self around "something"...
What and why?. was this ever in use?. For what reason, or is it just another myth, and, indeed, if heated up, would a length of chain serve as a better fire starter, or, would wrapping that chain in wadding make it a good incendiary device, therefore what we are seeing is just the skeleton of something else in use at the time?.
Another question I have always asked... Accuracy.
On the ups and downs of s ship bobbing about on the waves, the captain shouts fire, and all cannons fire at once...
Is that wise?.
Are you relying too much on the captain's estimate of when the guns would fall on target?.
Would it not be better to just allow the gunners, who were kind of expert at this, to work their own gun as it bears on target?.
After all, a full broadside all guns at the same time, could sink a ship... which is reportedly the case of the Mary Rose isnt it?.
Or, stagger the shot, the captain shouts fire, the first gun fires, then half a second later, the second, thus you have a better spread of shot as the ship rolls?.
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Post by the light works on Dec 28, 2017 15:34:04 GMT
This is the problem with History, nailing down the invention of such technology, unless you are extreme accurate, you dont know exactly when, because so much was forgotten, and then when it is rediscovered, such as on the Mary Rose, which we have an almost exact date for its sinking, to within the hour, because it was recorded in accurate history books of the date, then we can nail down the existing technology to having been prior to that date... And in that knowledge, the whole of what we know, can change in a heartbeat. Such as this discovery of spiked shot on board. There has been question of the nature of the Fire ships that Drake sent to mess with the Spanish. We KNOW he sent them, but, so much is in question as to why, when, how... Such as it has not yet been answered as to if they set booby-traps, there was suggestion they set cannon "with long fuse" on board hoping the cannon would although be sacrificed get in a lucky shot at the ships it was passing. Mostly we suspect that he did it at night in order to force the spannish to cut away anchors in panic, thus no way of anchoring up the next night, and maybe force one or two ships to turn for port thinning the crowd, but mostly to cause a lot of mischief. But we dont know for certain... Of course, finding the wreck of those ships, may for certain answer a few questions. But back mildly in the general direction of being on topic. And this is the same as making a Martini by filling a glass with gin and waving it in the general direction of Rome... Different types of shot, if we are to go for the obscure shot types and when and how they were used, we may have all seen at some time two cannon balls linked by a piece of chain. Maybe its a cartoon version, maybe its another version, but the idea is it rotates wildly and wraps its self around "something"... What and why?. was this ever in use?. For what reason, or is it just another myth, and, indeed, if heated up, would a length of chain serve as a better fire starter, or, would wrapping that chain in wadding make it a good incendiary device, therefore what we are seeing is just the skeleton of something else in use at the time?. Another question I have always asked... Accuracy. On the ups and downs of s ship bobbing about on the waves, the captain shouts fire, and all cannons fire at once... Is that wise?. Are you relying too much on the captain's estimate of when the guns would fall on target?. Would it not be better to just allow the gunners, who were kind of expert at this, to work their own gun as it bears on target?. After all, a full broadside all guns at the same time, could sink a ship... which is reportedly the case of the Mary Rose isnt it?. Or, stagger the shot, the captain shouts fire, the first gun fires, then half a second later, the second, thus you have a better spread of shot as the ship rolls?. I would suspect an even spread of "this is the way we've always done it," "gunners are dumb commoners they don't know when to shoot," "the more shots, the less chance of missing" and the fact the gunners really don't have a good view of anything other than where their gun is pointing, so it is hard for them to make strategic firing decisions. there are, however, occasions of captains delivering the order to fire at will - so it does happen when the captain thinks it will be useful. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 28, 2017 17:12:16 GMT
You are talking about Chain-shot, which we know about as it was issued to ships up until the mid 1800's. We also know;
It was intended to wrap around the rigging and tangle in the sails causing damage and reducing/eliminating a sailing ships propulsion. It might not have worked exactly as intended, but certainly proved to be effective. We know this from, amongst other things, the inability of HMS Java to cripple the USS Constitution by firing at her rigging due to the Royal Navy having more or less stopped issuing demasting shot. The US Navy at that period in contrast issued its ships with large numbers of demasting shot. The result being that the Java lost all of its masts (except the lower masts, which passed through the hull to rest on the keel) while the Constitution was still in sailing condition.
Naval combat at the time of the Mary Rose involved yawing to bring one broadside to bare, then reversing the yaw to bring the bow guns then the other broadside. The turn would be maintained to bring the stern guns to bare as the ship sailed away to reload the guns.
The Mary Rose was in the middle of performing this move when she sank, a result of the gunports being too close to the water and the crews not closing the gunports.
While the Captain gave the order to fire, it was the responsibility of the gun-captain to aim the gun and pick the right moment to actually fire once the order had been given. On smaller ships it would be possible for the Captain to give an immediate order and the guns to be fired a moment later. But on such ships the crews would be able to hear a shouted order.
On larger ships, especially those with multiple gun decks, the order to fire would have to be passed on by junior officers.
A 'simultainous' broadside was probably slightly misleading, with the slight variations that would come from hand-loading guns resulting in a slight 'ripple' effect on a single deck and in the case of multiple decks there would be a delay either as the order was passed on or the crews waited to hear the guns above being fired.
In a major battle guns would be fired as soon as they were loaded and ready after the first broadside, and the manual loading would mean that the guns would not all be ready at the same time. For more accurate, deliberate, fire the guns would be fired fore to aft in sequence. This would, usually, carry the smoke away from the next gun allowing the gun captain to judge the fall of shot from the prior gun and compensate if needed.
Firing all the guns at once could damage a ship, on 38 gun frigate you'd be talking about some 40 odd tons of metal moving backwards then being brought to a sudden halt by the breaching ropes which would pass all of that energy into the wooden frame. This could overload the strength of the frames, and was the reason smaller ships couldn't carry or at least use large guns.
In the case of naval technology it is less a case of being forgotten, and more due to things not being recorded at the time. As I've said before, we don't actually know where, who are exactly when the ships wheel was developed. The first references to the use of a ships wheel mention it in a way that indicate it was not a new feature at that point, and was probably widespread and been in use for decades prior to its being recorded.
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Post by the light works on Dec 29, 2017 0:42:27 GMT
the idea that everything we do is significant and needs to be recorded for posterity being a relatively new invention.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 29, 2017 9:30:40 GMT
the idea that everything we do is significant and needs to be recorded for posterity being a relatively new invention. And unfortunately now the younger generation are doing that in minute detail so often we are risking things being lost in an ocean of TMI, Too MUCH information... There will come a time when we do run out of storage space. Imagine an imaginary menagerie managing an imaginary Dragon. Say that three times?. But, when it comes to the big decision of what to keep and what to disguard, when Cyber runs out of space, the above line is worthy of throwing, and maybe this entire post, but, what do we keep?. I would hope the whole ESM thread is worthy of keeping just to show we do have laconic ability to think sideways and often diagonal at the same time, but, this is a creative site, so in the grand scheme of things, for future reference, say 100 yrs from now, I would hope some of it is still around. But as for the twit who photographed every single meal they ever had for the last two years?. And yeas I do know "one like that", her identity is protected, but we all know they exist. Who the hell is going to sift through all the electronic spam we create as a race daily, when it comes to future archaeology?. Forget a good sized private library, in ONE HOUR, this modern world produces more writing than has ever been recovered from ancient egyptians. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 29, 2017 9:56:22 GMT
Back on board the HMS Odd Shot.
Are we to believe that Cannons were designed as having multiple choices of what they shoot.
BTW, Cyber, thanks for confirming the idea that I had that a broadside when every single gun fires at the same time is preposterous in its suggestion...
Yes the movement of mass would have been substantial as all the guns went in at high velocity, and yes the concern about the superstructures ability to brake that lot at the same time is questionable, ....
For consideration it has been suggested by some that studied the Mary Rose, that it was "Showing off" its ability to broadside turn and repeat, and at the time, it was supposed to broadside, turn, then repeat, but, the captain being a silly bugger ordered the swing around order too close to the firing order, so the ships movement was a combination of the back-swing from the broadside AND starting to swing around at the same time, along with having all the ports open, he was trying to do the ancient equivalent of doughnuts whist firing.... yeah that works well doesnt it?.
It was a perfect storm of a newly refitted ship, an incompetent captain, a wish to show off, and a huge misunderstanding of a top heavy craft under sudden manoeuvring.
On to the fall of shot, I was led to believe some silly sod with no motion sickness was sent up the mast to the crows nest to report back on fall of shot, so smoke from guns would be less of a problem?.
As for the naval technology, its change was very sudden, because of the number of people we managed to pick a fight with at that time of world history, Newfoundland being the first of the empire of other-than-England parts of the world we "claimed" as ours, mistakenly of course being the people who lived there had better rights than we did, but so fast was the change, no one thought it was that important to record it "As it happened", because at that time, by the time they wrote that book, it was out of date, and many times, by the time they finished one chapter it was out of date.
Maps were Hot Property, new maps and the acquisition of them to captains was as much as Pokemon is to the younger generation, it was a collection thing, the more you had, the better you were, and the rarer the map, the greater the value.
When they sacked a ship and stole its cargo, often the captains map collection was the first to be seized.?...
Or is that also a Myth, and there were copy writers on board each ship making coppys of other captains maps to spread the knowledge?.
I do know, or was told, and therefore so believed, that in the HMS Navy on land, captains were requested to pass on knowledge of updated maps as a standard operational procedure every time they hit a dock of any standing.
In My fathers time, in Merchant navy of P&O Cruise ships, before electronic maps were even a thing, he was sent every time they reached home port to collect "new maps" of any area the ship intended to visit if they were available. [he attained rating of Bursar of something-or-other which involved keeping the captains cabin stocked and up to date, basically he was captains "bat-man", amongst other duties.]
I never found out what happened to old maps..... and my Dad isnt around to ask.
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Post by the light works on Dec 29, 2017 15:27:18 GMT
the idea that everything we do is significant and needs to be recorded for posterity being a relatively new invention. And unfortunately now the younger generation are doing that in minute detail so often we are risking things being lost in an ocean of TMI, Too MUCH information... There will come a time when we do run out of storage space. Imagine an imaginary menagerie managing an imaginary Dragon. Say that three times?. But, when it comes to the big decision of what to keep and what to disguard, when Cyber runs out of space, the above line is worthy of throwing, and maybe this entire post, but, what do we keep?. I would hope the whole ESM thread is worthy of keeping just to show we do have laconic ability to think sideways and often diagonal at the same time, but, this is a creative site, so in the grand scheme of things, for future reference, say 100 yrs from now, I would hope some of it is still around. But as for the twit who photographed every single meal they ever had for the last two years?. And yeas I do know "one like that", her identity is protected, but we all know they exist. Who the hell is going to sift through all the electronic spam we create as a race daily, when it comes to future archaeology?. Forget a good sized private library, in ONE HOUR, this modern world produces more writing than has ever been recovered from ancient egyptians. and maybe 1% of it is worth reading. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 29, 2017 15:28:04 GMT
Back on board the HMS Odd Shot. Are we to believe that Cannons were designed as having multiple choices of what they shoot. BTW, Cyber, thanks for confirming the idea that I had that a broadside when every single gun fires at the same time is preposterous in its suggestion... Yes the movement of mass would have been substantial as all the guns went in at high velocity, and yes the concern about the superstructures ability to brake that lot at the same time is questionable, .... For consideration it has been suggested by some that studied the Mary Rose, that it was "Showing off" its ability to broadside turn and repeat, and at the time, it was supposed to broadside, turn, then repeat, but, the captain being a silly bugger ordered the swing around order too close to the firing order, so the ships movement was a combination of the back-swing from the broadside AND starting to swing around at the same time, along with having all the ports open, he was trying to do the ancient equivalent of doughnuts whist firing.... yeah that works well doesnt it?. It was a perfect storm of a newly refitted ship, an incompetent captain, a wish to show off, and a huge misunderstanding of a top heavy craft under sudden manoeuvring. On to the fall of shot, I was led to believe some silly sod with no motion sickness was sent up the mast to the crows nest to report back on fall of shot, so smoke from guns would be less of a problem?. As for the naval technology, its change was very sudden, because of the number of people we managed to pick a fight with at that time of world history, Newfoundland being the first of the empire of other-than-England parts of the world we "claimed" as ours, mistakenly of course being the people who lived there had better rights than we did, but so fast was the change, no one thought it was that important to record it "As it happened", because at that time, by the time they wrote that book, it was out of date, and many times, by the time they finished one chapter it was out of date. Maps were Hot Property, new maps and the acquisition of them to captains was as much as Pokemon is to the younger generation, it was a collection thing, the more you had, the better you were, and the rarer the map, the greater the value. When they sacked a ship and stole its cargo, often the captains map collection was the first to be seized.?... Or is that also a Myth, and there were copy writers on board each ship making coppys of other captains maps to spread the knowledge?. I do know, or was told, and therefore so believed, that in the HMS Navy on land, captains were requested to pass on knowledge of updated maps as a standard operational procedure every time they hit a dock of any standing. In My fathers time, in Merchant navy of P&O Cruise ships, before electronic maps were even a thing, he was sent every time they reached home port to collect "new maps" of any area the ship intended to visit if they were available. [he attained rating of Bursar of something-or-other which involved keeping the captains cabin stocked and up to date, basically he was captains "bat-man", amongst other duties.] I never found out what happened to old maps..... and my Dad isnt around to ask. I'm sure captains were quick to copy maps for their friends, but there was the issue of a lack of Xerox machines. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 29, 2017 20:48:51 GMT
You can, as Mythbusters showed in the second Pirate Special, fire anything that will fit down the barrel of a (smoothbore) cannon. If that object survives being fired or is of any actual use as a projectile is a different matter.
The ability to do this prompted development of different types of projectile with different types of target in mind;
Solid shot; The traditional cannon ball. Originally made from stone, but by 1588 cast-iron shot entered use and quickly replaced stone. Intended to be used primarily against the hull of a ship or walls and forts.
Demasting shot; Covers a number of variations on a theme, but basically a length of chain or a bar with weights on the end that was intended to catch in rigging snapping it. Circa 1812 the US Navy was issuing at least 6 different types of demasting shot to its ships.
'Grape' shot; Best thought of as the cannon version of a shotgun shell, in that a bag or wooden canister was filled with a number of smaller projectiles. This was an anti-personal weapon used to clear the decks of an enemy ship prior to boarding or if you risked being boarded.
It would have happened, or a close as you could get with the firing systems of the time; and anyone on the other end would hardly be bothered by a second or two between the first and last gun firing.
The concern about the superstructure is not questionable. The frames the recoil was being absorbed by was the same frame the planking was attached too. Too much force placed onto the frame could crack the frames, or warp them which would pop the caulking out the gaps. This was not usually a major problem for new ships using guns of the size intended for them. But older ships had to be careful not to put too much strain on the frame of the ship lest they damage the ship.
We know EXACTLY what happened to the Mary Rose from first hand accounts.
As I said, the standard tactic of the period was to yaw to bring one broadside to bare, then to reverse the yaw to bring the remaining guns into play ending by the stern guns firing as the ship pulled away to reload.
The Mary Rose was in the middle of this turn when her topsails were hit by a sudden gust of wind, which pushed the leeward side of the ship a lot lower that it would normally have been. The gun crews had not closed the gunports on the leeward side before rushing to the other side of the deck. The result was that the ship flooded and sank.
No showing off involved her. Just a Captain (and crew) doing what they would normally be doing and suffering from bad luck at the worst possible moment.
Men of War did not have crows nests, they had fighting tops. These could be 100 feet above the deck, so good luck passing information from them to the gun crews below you. The crew would be deaf after the first shot, you couldn't get down the masts to pass on information in enough time for it to be helpful - the target having moved too much. And dropping something risked it ending up in the sea or braining one of the officers on deck.
It was possible to do this with balloons on land, since land isn't pitching and yawing. But not at sea.
Not really, unless you are talking about the period between 1850-1916 which started with wooden sailing ships and ended with aircraft carriers.
The actual development of naval warfare and technology was more a number of progressive steps improving on existing technologies. Which is how most technological development progresses, rather than something totally 'new'. Even iron hulled ships were a result of logical pregression from wooden hulled ships - wood, iron clad, iron.
Even during the wars of the 1700's technological progression was a number of smaller steps, although due to navies 'borrowing' ideas and features they liked from their opponents ships this might not always be apparent.
Maps were important and shared because sandbanks and shoals were always shifting. In addition one form of navigation was to use the 'variation of the compass' (basically, variations in the magnetic strength of the Earth and therefore variations in where a compass pointed). This however varied over time.
Last of all new maps might indicate an island you could get fresh water and/or food from.
The Royal Navy led the world in keeping highly accurate maps of the world, so accurate were the maps drawn up in the early 1800's they were only surplanted by GPS for navigation some 200 years later. Mapping actually became one of the principle jobs of the Royal Navy, even in wartime, and all new maps or corrections to existing maps were handed over to the Admiralty.
Maps were important not just for the navy, but also for trade as they allowed you to see what made viable trading routes.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 30, 2017 9:33:54 GMT
And unfortunately now the younger generation are doing that in minute detail so often we are risking things being lost in an ocean of TMI, Too MUCH information... There will come a time when we do run out of storage space. Imagine an imaginary menagerie managing an imaginary Dragon. Say that three times?. But, when it comes to the big decision of what to keep and what to disguard, when Cyber runs out of space, the above line is worthy of throwing, and maybe this entire post, but, what do we keep?. I would hope the whole ESM thread is worthy of keeping just to show we do have laconic ability to think sideways and often diagonal at the same time, but, this is a creative site, so in the grand scheme of things, for future reference, say 100 yrs from now, I would hope some of it is still around. But as for the twit who photographed every single meal they ever had for the last two years?. And yeas I do know "one like that", her identity is protected, but we all know they exist. Who the hell is going to sift through all the electronic spam we create as a race daily, when it comes to future archaeology?. Forget a good sized private library, in ONE HOUR, this modern world produces more writing than has ever been recovered from ancient egyptians. and maybe 1% of it is worth reading. I would say thats an overly generous estimate... so your on holiday, your sending 20 shots an hour to the cloud, you REALLY think anyone is going to be sat at home viewing every single one?. Does ANYONE at all go through the last 50 meals you had to look at the food?. My estimate therefore is less than 0.000000001% is worthy of wasting the space its in. |
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