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Post by wvengineer on Aug 1, 2017 16:18:37 GMT
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Post by the light works on Aug 1, 2017 16:36:29 GMT
well, it would not be hard for someone with the right computer skills to hack our car wash, and do things mentioned - except our automatic door is shut down because I haven't had time to get the air actuators that open and close the door fixed, again. and they would also have to be able to pick locks, because it ain't web connected. are there times I would like to be able to log in remotely? yes, sometimes when it hangs up, you just have to tell it that the problem is not the end of the world, and it will restart. is it necessary? not at what it would cost. but it comes down to the fact that the "network of things" is protected mostly by the "who would bother?" model of security. unless you have a personal beef against the car wash owner, hacking it would be a fair amount of work with not much reward other than being able to say you did it - and you couldn't say that too loudly. basically, an automatic car wash runs on a multilayer program - the first layer controls all the functions and defines what combination of functions constitutes a "pass" the second layer runs the startup sequence, and then cycles through the programmed passes for the wash selected, and then runs the completion sequence. to hack it, you would have to remove that program and rewrite it with your own steps able to be inserted when you wanted them to be. bottom line is, if you want to make trouble for us, it is a lot easier and more effective to do something low tech to "hack" it.
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Post by wvengineer on Aug 1, 2017 18:18:52 GMT
How is a typical car wash system controlled? Is it a PC Based? PLC, or something else?
The reason I ask is that what the controller is will affect how hard it is for an average person to hack. If it was an Allen Bradly PLC, that would be a lot harder to hack than a common PC system. AB control software is a different language and style of programing, not to mention the AB software is tightly controlled by the vendor and is not cheap to get.* That will deter a lot of hackers who won't have the ability to edit it, even if they could get into it. It's a form of security though obscurity.
Other PLC systems may be cheaper. However the machine automation language can be just as non-traditional compared to most programing these days.
Of course there is always the ultimate way to prevent hacking. Just don't have a connection to the outside world.
*Last I looked, the 5000 in RSLOGIX5000 stood for the price tag of the software license. That is one expensive USB dongle.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2017 1:05:34 GMT
How is a typical car wash system controlled? Is it a PC Based? PLC, or something else? The reason I ask is that what the controller is will affect how hard it is for an average person to hack. If it was an Allen Bradly PLC, that would be a lot harder to hack than a common PC system. AB control software is a different language and style of programing, not to mention the AB software is tightly controlled by the vendor and is not cheap to get.* That will deter a lot of hackers who won't have the ability to edit it, even if they could get into it. It's a form of security though obscurity. Other PLC systems may be cheaper. However the machine automation language can be just as non-traditional compared to most programing these days. Of course there is always the ultimate way to prevent hacking. Just don't have a connection to the outside world. *Last I looked, the 5000 in RSLOGIX5000 stood for the price tag of the software license. That is one expensive USB dongle. ours is a GE Fanuc, driven by a panelview module running Windows 95. it backs up on compact flash. we were originally going to run my brother's house off an AB controller, but he decided to go with a proprietary PC based system, instead. - the ultimate STO method.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 2, 2017 14:04:39 GMT
I would think vandalism would be a bigger problem at an unattended car wash rather than someone hacking the control system.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2017 14:22:00 GMT
I would think vandalism would be a bigger problem at an unattended car wash rather than someone hacking the control system. yep. there are any number of things a person could do that would cause operating problems with the wash that are much simpler than hacking a machine specific operating system.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 3, 2017 1:20:40 GMT
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Post by the light works on Aug 3, 2017 1:31:45 GMT
next life hack: free radio via antenna.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 3, 2017 6:58:39 GMT
Ghostery prevented a redirect to the above story...
"Rabbit ear" antenna's are obsolete here in UK, unless you are right next to the antenna, because we wented all digital. There is no analogue TV signal being broadcast at all....
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 3, 2017 7:01:35 GMT
Analog was shut down some years ago, but digital broadcast is still active, here (by law).
However, the signals aren't as reliable as the old analog ones--at least in my neighborhood.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 3, 2017 7:07:04 GMT
Welcome to the 21st century... yeah, this one is neat... I just watched an intriguing "Inside the factory" thing on BBC. It concerned a famous biscuit factory I know, McVities. The flour deliveries, and all other ingredients, are stored on site in hoppers and silo's, each silo approx the size of the delivery that will fill it, and enough silo's to last approx one day at minimum, even on max processing speed. It was asked who manages the ordering.. No one. They do not order, the supplier can see the digital readouts from all the hoppers they fill via internet.. As soon as one hopper gets empty, "They send a wagon".
One and a half hours to pump a tanker of flour out, they get approx 20 wagons a day of various ingredients, they are told when one is coming, but the internet takes care of ordering by automatic process... Bloody hell, thats intelligent?.. why dont more places run like that.
If the tills at the supermarket were rigged to order more milk when the stock in the shop gets 75% sold, we wouldnt have empty shelves on that strange occasion when the ordering clerk trips on the doorstep and cant make it in today.
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 3, 2017 7:37:05 GMT
If you think that's shocking, you should go to the Lego site.
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Post by the light works on Aug 3, 2017 14:00:50 GMT
Welcome to the 21st century... yeah, this one is neat... I just watched an intriguing "Inside the factory" thing on BBC. It concerned a famous biscuit factory I know, McVities. The flour deliveries, and all other ingredients, are stored on site in hoppers and silo's, each silo approx the size of the delivery that will fill it, and enough silo's to last approx one day at minimum, even on max processing speed. It was asked who manages the ordering.. No one. They do not order, the supplier can see the digital readouts from all the hoppers they fill via internet.. As soon as one hopper gets empty, "They send a wagon". One and a half hours to pump a tanker of flour out, they get approx 20 wagons a day of various ingredients, they are told when one is coming, but the internet takes care of ordering by automatic process... Bloody hell, thats intelligent?.. why dont more places run like that. If the tills at the supermarket were rigged to order more milk when the stock in the shop gets 75% sold, we wouldnt have empty shelves on that strange occasion when the ordering clerk trips on the doorstep and cant make it in today. why do you think everything depends on the cash register being able to recognize the ethiopian family portrait on the carton of milk? only the small stores have a person doing inventory control. the problems come when the computer doesn't realize the milk drinkers' festival is coming to town.
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 3, 2017 14:09:48 GMT
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 4, 2017 8:47:42 GMT
Welcome to the 21st century... yeah, this one is neat... I just watched an intriguing "Inside the factory" thing on BBC. It concerned a famous biscuit factory I know, McVities. The flour deliveries, and all other ingredients, are stored on site in hoppers and silo's, each silo approx the size of the delivery that will fill it, and enough silo's to last approx one day at minimum, even on max processing speed. It was asked who manages the ordering.. No one. They do not order, the supplier can see the digital readouts from all the hoppers they fill via internet.. As soon as one hopper gets empty, "They send a wagon". One and a half hours to pump a tanker of flour out, they get approx 20 wagons a day of various ingredients, they are told when one is coming, but the internet takes care of ordering by automatic process... Bloody hell, thats intelligent?.. why dont more places run like that. If the tills at the supermarket were rigged to order more milk when the stock in the shop gets 75% sold, we wouldnt have empty shelves on that strange occasion when the ordering clerk trips on the doorstep and cant make it in today. why do you think everything depends on the cash register being able to recognize the ethiopian family portrait on the carton of milk? only the small stores have a person doing inventory control. the problems come when the computer doesn't realize the milk drinkers' festival is coming to town. It needs a "Seasonal difference" stock clerk to realise that you need to order in more on certain dates, yes, but on a normal wek following a normal week following etc, getting the basics done by EPOS that says you should go down and check that isle but why not order some anyway because... Cr'p Happens, this we can allow, and boo hoo to you if you just absolutely can NOT do without, even when you have been given a reasonable reason, and yes, I have been in the position where "Well can you just go and check your storeroom one more time just in case you missed one" customer is assured that even though they are the third person in that line to ask, we actually DID run out of [xyz] and doesnt matter how many times I check it wont majically create just one for them. But when its just someone who "Forgot" to do their job properly, I can see a space quite manageable for electronic stock control, all you have to do is ensure your suppliers dont take the michael on price, so set a trip on that, "Sorry out of stock because the [ijurts] doubled the price and we dont expect you to pay that much" is a sign on a shelf that will get my full support. My "WTF" moment on running out, customer at the bar, despite us ordering treble the usual stock, we had a run on a certain brand, we had run out... "Cant you order in a emergency delivery?..." Its New Years Eve?. It also takes 24 hrs to get an emergency delivery, are you going to stand at the bar and wait that long then?. I witnessed pure gold that night, the person they were talking to told them after several back-and-forth "I dont believe you have non left" discussions that someone was double checking the stockroom and went on to serve someone else whilst they continued to wait. After several other persons had been served, I caught on, no one had disappeared from behind the bar, yet they were still waiting... but now in silence... Eventually they did manage to ask one of the bar staff, "No it hasnt changed yet, we are still waiting for more stock" and moved on to serve someone else. When they finally got served something, all the fight had gone, and they were happy to be served a substitute. You have the right to be an ijurt, we reserve the right to serve someone else and ignore your being an ijurt.
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 4, 2017 9:20:10 GMT
I understand what you are saying SD but trying saying that to your 84 year old widowed, housebound, slightly confused with the world Aunt for whom a Mcvities Gingernut with her evening cup of tea is a ritual for longer than you have been born.
We did find some eventually in the small local shop rather than a supermarket, we paid over the odds but got a supply in that lasted until the crisis was over.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 4, 2017 9:45:32 GMT
I understand what you are saying SD but trying saying that to your 84 year old widowed, housebound, slightly confused with the world Aunt for whom a Mcvities Gingernut with her evening cup of tea is a ritual for longer than you have been born. We did find some eventually in the small local shop rather than a supermarket, we paid over the odds but got a supply in that lasted until the crisis was over. I sympathise with your problem... It has been my family tradition to not accept that kind of unbreakable ritual. For good reason. Yes I understand your problem, but, that is exactly why we have the tradition of not sticking to traditions here, if our family motto was anything, it would be something of either of the following, expect the unexpected, survive and adapt, accept change... Even when dealing with one section of the family that has a history of Autism. Aspergers. its a matter of training to help them adapt to unexpected. Its a way of setting their "Ritual" so that every day is different in some way, and when that becomes the norm, change it again. Gently and slowly at first, but then, after a while, they can handle unexpected unplanned change. And yes this did come to a head when in history we had a situation where the death of one partner left the other one unable to deal with not having them around, and would repeatedly ask where they were...for decades after the death.. I think this is one of the reasons why we deal with that the way we do, to prevent that happening again. In saying that, although with the dealing with Aspergers we fully understand the problems with routine changes, ask any of my family here if they would be happy to live with a set routine, even the Aspies would baulk at the idea of the same biscuit and the same cup of tea at 3-pm every day without fail. "What happens if we go out then?.. " Therefore, if you want tea and biscuit, have it as soon as you are ready, and here is a choice of what you can have. BTW, I have not mentioned the ginger nut for many reasons... first being the Mad Scots in our family see that as "Racist", being they are all nuts, and definitely Ginger... Also, "Ginger" is a 'Wegie term for fizzy drinks... all fizzy drinks.. Than the idea of putting Ginger in biscuits is "Bad" following one grandparents persistence in trying to do Ginger Flavoured shortbread. After 60 yrs trying, they niver did find an acceptable level of flavouring, unless it was the time they forgot the ginger. I myself have not had a ginger flavoured biscuit since I was a teenager.. and even then I disliked it fiercely. Ginger "Doesn't work" with my digestion... I can taste it 3 to 4 days afterwards?.. and it gives me gas for some reason as well.
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Post by the light works on Aug 4, 2017 14:14:17 GMT
why do you think everything depends on the cash register being able to recognize the ethiopian family portrait on the carton of milk? only the small stores have a person doing inventory control. the problems come when the computer doesn't realize the milk drinkers' festival is coming to town. It needs a "Seasonal difference" stock clerk to realise that you need to order in more on certain dates, yes, but on a normal wek following a normal week following etc, getting the basics done by EPOS that says you should go down and check that isle but why not order some anyway because... Cr'p Happens, this we can allow, and boo hoo to you if you just absolutely can NOT do without, even when you have been given a reasonable reason, and yes, I have been in the position where "Well can you just go and check your storeroom one more time just in case you missed one" customer is assured that even though they are the third person in that line to ask, we actually DID run out of [xyz] and doesnt matter how many times I check it wont majically create just one for them. But when its just someone who "Forgot" to do their job properly, I can see a space quite manageable for electronic stock control, all you have to do is ensure your suppliers dont take the michael on price, so set a trip on that, "Sorry out of stock because the [ijurts] doubled the price and we dont expect you to pay that much" is a sign on a shelf that will get my full support. My "WTF" moment on running out, customer at the bar, despite us ordering treble the usual stock, we had a run on a certain brand, we had run out... "Cant you order in a emergency delivery?..." Its New Years Eve?. It also takes 24 hrs to get an emergency delivery, are you going to stand at the bar and wait that long then?. I witnessed pure gold that night, the person they were talking to told them after several back-and-forth "I dont believe you have non left" discussions that someone was double checking the stockroom and went on to serve someone else whilst they continued to wait. After several other persons had been served, I caught on, no one had disappeared from behind the bar, yet they were still waiting... but now in silence... Eventually they did manage to ask one of the bar staff, "No it hasnt changed yet, we are still waiting for more stock" and moved on to serve someone else. When they finally got served something, all the fight had gone, and they were happy to be served a substitute. You have the right to be an ijurt, we reserve the right to serve someone else and ignore your being an ijurt. one of our expectations for the solar eclipse is that stores will run out of stuff. we are encouraging our locals to do their shopping in advance, and statewide TV news is encouraging people to bring their food supplies with them, but we know something unexpected will happen.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 15, 2017 19:39:43 GMT
My biggest dislike about the 21st century so far is that kids age 6 to 15 have no imagination any more. They're so used to either their parents planning everything for them or entertainment being shoved into their eyes and ears through a screen that the word "creativity" is almost foreign to many of them.
Take away their screen privileges and 90% of them will go, "What am I supposed to do now?" Tell them, "Use your imagination," and they'll stare at you like you just spoke giraffe.
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 16, 2017 5:15:19 GMT
My 2 year old godson's parents do not permit him to watch TV, or use any electronic screen except for video calls to his grandmother.
They're not the usual anti-TV fanatics--they both use it a lot, just not in front of the kid if possible. Since they're both home all day, they think the best way to help him develop is for him to spend a lot of time with mom and dad. The plan is to delay introduction of technology for as long as possible.
Frankly, it seems to be working. I've seen several young kids, and he has the longest attention span for a toddler I've ever seen. He's also very people oriented. Of course I'm biased, but he's pretty fun to be around, as he genuinely seems interested in just about everything.
These next two days are a big test. This morning we started a trip to Lake Tahoe. Even though it was a five hour drive, he didn't fuss even once, and was pleasantly entertained by books, toys, and simply looking out the window. Frankly, we were all amazed how well he has behaved...so far. We go back Thursday, so time will tell.
Oh, to all those who don't believe there are inherent differences in boys and girls, I've never seen a more car and truck oriented kid. He's fascinated by anything with wheels.
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