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Post by mrfatso on Jan 20, 2019 23:23:40 GMT
Episode 6: Lethe In the first episode, MB has this thing where she can talk to her step father Sarek over any distance because they mine-melded at one time and she has part of Sarek's katra. Yet another thing that was never mentioned previously in any Trek, despite being extremely useful. Instantaneous, secure communication over any distance? Something would have been very useful in many conditions. Would have completely changed Voyager, but this is new here. Sarek is involved with trying to arrange negations with two Klingon houses that were forced out by the new leadership, so he goes to a conference. While on his way his shuttle is sabotaged by a "Logic Extremist", basically a Vulcan terrorist. Think of a Vulcan version of Terra Prime, only less interesting. Sarek is lost and dying. MB uses her link with Sarek to find misewd with Spore drive tech and rescue him. In the process we learn about Sarek having a disagreement with the Vulcan Science Academy/High Command. The Vuclan Expeditionary Group is some arm of Vulcan that is seen as the missionary force of Vulcan to spread logic. Sarek was given a choice to have one person join them. Either MB or Spock (the first time Spock has been mentioned in this series.) He choose Spock, making MB think she was a failure for not making the cut despite being top of her class. Since Spock later decided to join Star Fleet, Sarek is dealing with guilt of his personal failure to live up to Vulcan ideals. It actually is a interesting view on things and does work with the later Sarek/Spock story. Sarek is rescued. During this, Lorca has a visit from Admiral Saru to evaluate his mental state after his imprisonment. The who also used to have a relationship. This brings up many issues with SF and their disregard relationship restrictions and the chain of command. We have covered that elsewhere. this also drops a load of hints that Lorca may not be who he claims to be. Saru ends up going to the negotiations in Sarek's place. In what is not a surprise at all, it's a trap and she is captured in the Klingon house's attempt to win loyalty with her capture. This episode is a mixed bag. The Sarek subplot is interesting and well done. The Lorca plot is not. It is predictable and problematic. Yes Lorca is .......well spoilers. I have watched the first episode of Season 2 tonight some nice shots of ship exteriors and a brief joke about the new "colourful uniforms " that Starfleet are starting to issue, we see a redshirt, a blue for science and gold for command. I enjoyed season 1 and hope that 2 will be better.
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Post by wvengineer on Jan 21, 2019 0:50:42 GMT
A couple things occurred to me as I was shoveling the driveway.
1. With all the talk about MB and Spock, they forgot about Sybok. That actually could have been some interesting backstory on him. Sarek experimenting with humans on Vulcan as they put it, Sybok being another extreme of how they repress emotion.
2. Logic Extremist. Wha? They seem to have it out for Sarek and MB, but with no other explanation. Why? You are left with pointless xenophobia. It's the same story of shallow writing with Klingon Xenophobia. Terra Prime at least had a well written and understandable reason behind their Xenophobia, but there is nothing here. It make for another shallow, pointless villain.
It strikes me as another potentially very interesting plot, but is completely wasted. The problem with a totally logical society is that it is very easy for logic to be used to justify some pretty horrible things.
Eugenics for example. It would be logical to put down all mentally retarded people because they are nothing more than a drain on society's resources. They are not able to hold their own. 'The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few.' It would be logical to put them down for the good of everyone. So why don't Vulcans do that? You need some form of values to temper the logic that everyone uses. This is something they have never addressed in Star Trek and would be an interesting thing look at Vulcan Society. Look at ST3, when Sarek asks to have Spock brought back, they state the his reason is illogical, but they go along with him anyway. Why? There needs to be more to logic to Vulcans in order for their society to be where it is. A Logic Extremist is someone who does not have the temper that keep Vulcan together. That could be a very interesting thing to follow, but I don't see it going anywhere.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 21, 2019 12:12:05 GMT
Enterprise's fourth season had a two or three part episode that dealt with how the Vulcan's changed between the start of that series and TOS. This includes an appearance by Surak in which he more or less spells out the basics of his philosophy, and hence the philosophy that underpinned Vulcan society since Surak's time - although it was being corrupted by the time of the episode.
Surak's teachings about logic were based on morality, specifically the desire to preserve life. Although those teachings had been corrupted, the basic principles remained in place such as the Vulcan's effectively having their version of the Prime Directive. Heck, their reason for holding back information and technology from humans pre-Enterprise then calling for Star Fleet to cancel (or at least restrict) their exploration missions was ultimately all based on a desire to protect humans from the dangers that existed in the galaxy.
In this light a 'Logic Extremist' in Vulcan society just doesn't make any sense. This would require ignoring the reasons behind Surak's teachings, and unlike during Enterprise's period they actually have Surak's original writings on the matter. Or put another way these 'Logical Extremist's' would have to be reading very specific passages from Surak and ignoring everything else, which would not be logical. It can, logically, be deduced from the actions of even senior Vulcan's dedicated to logic from ST3 as well as what Surak says in Enterprise, that Surak made this very clear in his writings. So you'd have to be VERY selective to miss this and illogical not to understand the point.
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Post by wvengineer on Jan 21, 2019 13:00:36 GMT
I has been years since I saw that Surak story line on STE, so I'll take you at your word on the details. The idea that this terrorist could be a follower of a sect that was a holdover from the pre-STE teachings could be an interesting plot.
To be fair, selective reading of text is extremely common. Most religions today heavily cherry pick their doctrine. Mormonism, Islam, Catholicism, even Christianity in general, they all cherry pick their doctrine out of their respective holy books. If you view Surak as Vulcan Religion, it is easy to see how someone can take parts out of context and go off the deep end.
The other thing is that for a terrorist, the Logic Extremist is surprisingly ineffective. He injects himself with something that makes his body explode, but did surprisingly little damage. It wounded Sarek, and distoryed the pilot's console, but other than that, it was not effective. Had Sarek not been trying to stop him (standing right next to him) when the bomb went off, he probably would have been completely unharmed. The hull of the shuttle was completely intact and at least some major systems (power, life support, communications) were fully operational. I would think that someone wanting to assassinate someone as high ranking as an ambassador would have a more effective plan in mind. This one was underwhelming and poorly thought out for a logic master. I guess the bomb was powered by plot.
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2019 15:17:24 GMT
Enterprise's fourth season had a two or three part episode that dealt with how the Vulcan's changed between the start of that series and TOS. This includes an appearance by Surak in which he more or less spells out the basics of his philosophy, and hence the philosophy that underpinned Vulcan society since Surak's time - although it was being corrupted by the time of the episode. Surak's teachings about logic were based on morality, specifically the desire to preserve life. Although those teachings had been corrupted, the basic principles remained in place such as the Vulcan's effectively having their version of the Prime Directive. Heck, their reason for holding back information and technology from humans pre-Enterprise then calling for Star Fleet to cancel (or at least restrict) their exploration missions was ultimately all based on a desire to protect humans from the dangers that existed in the galaxy. In this light a 'Logic Extremist' in Vulcan society just doesn't make any sense. This would require ignoring the reasons behind Surak's teachings, and unlike during Enterprise's period they actually have Surak's original writings on the matter. Or put another way these 'Logical Extremist's' would have to be reading very specific passages from Surak and ignoring everything else, which would not be logical. It can, logically, be deduced from the actions of even senior Vulcan's dedicated to logic from ST3 as well as what Surak says in Enterprise, that Surak made this very clear in his writings. So you'd have to be VERY selective to miss this and illogical not to understand the point. and how many humans base extremist beliefs on selectively misreading religious texts? it isn't like vulcan extremist HAS to be extremely logical - even if they call themselves a logic extremist.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 25, 2019 2:56:05 GMT
Some basic figures for CBS AA and rumors about the actual viewer figures;
CBS AA seems, based on statements as to subscriber numbers in early 2018 and earlier this year along with touted subscription figures, to have a subscriber base of some 2.8 million.
The Trek 'Shorts' no one wanted were originally up for the asking price of $30 million. These are (unofficially) known to have been created because the first five episodes were so bad they had to be reshot. Assuming this amount was going to cover the original budget for those episodes that would probably mean that STD is budgeting each episode at around $5-6 million. This would be a reduction in the budget for the first year, with episodes seemingly being budgeted at some $8 million.
Rumors from inside CBS are saying that STD's viewer figures are, wait for it, somewhere between 64 and 100 THOUSAND.
If all of this is true then it means that STD is costing some two and a half times the average budget of Enterprise (factoring in the different number of episodes) and pulling in less than 3% of the audience.
OUCH!
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Post by the light works on Jan 25, 2019 3:09:29 GMT
Some basic figures for CBS AA and rumors about the actual viewer figures; CBS AA seems, based on statements as to subscriber numbers in early 2018 and earlier this year along with touted subscription figures, to have a subscriber base of some 2.8 million. The Trek 'Shorts' no one wanted were originally up for the asking price of $30 million. These are (unofficially) known to have been created because the first five episodes were so bad they had to be reshot. Assuming this amount was going to cover the original budget for those episodes that would probably mean that STD is budgeting each episode at around $5-6 million. This would be a reduction in the budget for the first year, with episodes seemingly being budgeted at some $8 million. Rumors from inside CBS are saying that STD's viewer figures are, wait for it, somewhere between 64 and 100 THOUSAND. If all of this is true then it means that STD is costing some two and a half times the average budget of Enterprise (factoring in the different number of episodes) and pulling in less than 3% of the audience. OUCH! ouch is a little too mild.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 25, 2019 3:21:26 GMT
CBS has done everything in their power to kill off Discovery before the first episode ever aired. Even if Discovery was a great show, which it isn't, it would be hard to survive at the hands CBS. 64 to 100K viewers? I think reruns of Giligan's Island has a larger viewership.
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Post by the light works on Jan 25, 2019 3:32:45 GMT
CBS has done everything in their power to kill off Discovery before the first episode ever aired. Even if Discovery was a great show, which it isn't, it would be hard to survive at the hands CBS. 64 to 100K viewers? I think reruns of Giligan's Island has a larger viewership. I think infomercials for battery operated tile scrubbers have a larger viewership.
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Post by ironhold on Jan 25, 2019 5:27:27 GMT
I don't think it's a case of "CBS is trying to kill it" as "CBS put people in charge of the project who didn't know what they were doing and did a hasty job of cleaning up their own mess."
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 25, 2019 6:11:47 GMT
I don't think it's a case of "CBS is trying to kill it" as "CBS put people in charge of the project who didn't know what they were doing and did a hasty job of cleaning up their own mess." I'm not saying they did so intentionally, just through total incompetence. The show may have had a fighting chance if on CBS network, but they tried to make it the savior of CBS-AA and nobody came. And the people that did are saying; "I'm paying money to watch this garbage?"
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Post by the light works on Jan 25, 2019 16:25:23 GMT
I don't think it's a case of "CBS is trying to kill it" as "CBS put people in charge of the project who didn't know what they were doing and did a hasty job of cleaning up their own mess." I'm not saying they did so intentionally, just through total incompetence. The show may have had a fighting chance if on CBS network, but they tried to make it the savior of CBS-AA and nobody came. And the people that did are saying; "I'm paying money to watch this garbage?" as my dad is fond of saying about a different topic, "if you wanted your child to turn out badly, what would you have done differently?"
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Post by wvengineer on Jan 25, 2019 17:30:51 GMT
I don't think it's a case of "CBS is trying to kill it" as "CBS put people in charge of the project who didn't know what they were doing and did a hasty job of cleaning up their own mess." I'm not saying they did so intentionally, just through total incompetence. The show may have had a fighting chance if on CBS network, but they tried to make it the savior of CBS-AA and nobody came. And the people that did are saying; "I'm paying money to watch this garbage?" So far the sin biggest as a Trekie standpoint is that they really didn't have a good understanding of the source materiel. I think it ould be better if they didn't use Klingons. They could have written in a new race, or maybe something like the Cardassians. The way they are written just doesn't work for Klingons. They just don't fit in with established mythology. The spore drive is also a major stumbling block. Hopefully they can find a way to write out the spore drive. I don't know how you can fix the Klingons. I am trying to reserve judgement, but they are not making it easy on me. But as a viewer, the biggest sin is that I am struggling to engage with the series. On a rare evening when I do have time, I am finding I am having to force myself to watch STD. If it wasn't Trek, or if I hadn't made the commitment to review it, I would likely have dropped this series and gone on to something else. A few days ago, while watching my toddler daughter, I had the opportunity to watch another episode or 2, but found myself watching Babylon 5: The Gathering as I mentioned elsewhere. I'll get through it, if nothing else so I can finally start Orville season 2.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 25, 2019 19:26:34 GMT
I'm not saying they did so intentionally, just through total incompetence. The show may have had a fighting chance if on CBS network, but they tried to make it the savior of CBS-AA and nobody came. And the people that did are saying; "I'm paying money to watch this garbage?" So far the sin biggest as a Trekie standpoint is that they really didn't have a good understanding of the source materiel. I think it ould be better if they didn't use Klingons. They could have written in a new race, or maybe something like the Cardassians. The way they are written just doesn't work for Klingons. They just don't fit in with established mythology. The spore drive is also a major stumbling block. Hopefully they can find a way to write out the spore drive. I don't know how you can fix the Klingons. I am trying to reserve judgement, but they are not making it easy on me. But as a viewer, the biggest sin is that I am struggling to engage with the series. On a rare evening when I do have time, I am finding I am having to force myself to watch STD. If it wasn't Trek, or if I hadn't made the commitment to review it, I would likely have dropped this series and gone on to something else. A few days ago, while watching my toddler daughter, I had the opportunity to watch another episode or 2, but found myself watching Babylon 5: The Gathering as I mentioned elsewhere. I'll get through it, if nothing else so I can finally start Orville season 2. I know what you're saying. I'm not that big a ST fan to say I won't watch because you somehow didn't stay true to the "Cannon", but even so, I just couldn't bring myself to watch anything after the Christmas break of season one. Problem is there is not one single character in Discovery that I even remotely like, especially the main character. It also doesn't help when you have to create a flow chart to try to follow the storyline. Hope you find the time for The Orville. I'm sure you will enjoy it. And since they don't have any Klingons, you don't have to worry how the new Klingons don't follow the old Klingons that don't follow the really old Klingons. No Klingons.
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Post by WhutScreenName on Jan 25, 2019 19:54:01 GMT
I had the disks given to me from my father in law who got them free from the library. I watched maybe 3 of those disks before they had to be turned back in. I didn't bother renewing the last ones, and honestly haven't had any desire to. I will admit I have some curiosity as to how they end the season and wondering if it has a course correction. But it's not enough of a curiosity to even take the minor effort needed to check them out of the library.
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Post by mrfatso on Jan 25, 2019 22:04:02 GMT
I had the disks given to me from my father in law who got them free from the library. I watched maybe 3 of those disks before they had to be turned back in. I didn't bother renewing the last ones, and honestly haven't had any desire to. I will admit I have some curiosity as to how they end the season and wondering if it has a course correction. But it's not enough of a curiosity to even take the minor effort needed to check them out of the library. The course correction is taking place more iin season 2 from what I have seen so far, there were some intresting ideas later in season 1 that I personally enjoyed but they have taken deliberate steps to try to make a discovery more like classic Trek. The second episode of Season 2 was directed by Jonathan Frakes so he knows a thing or two about that. Perhaos there won't be a third season it seems highly likely there won't be but I think this season will be a bit like season 4 of Enterprise when they finally started to get things right. But it still gets cancelled anyway. Is it enough that I would subscribe to a new service to get it no, but it's on Netflixs here which I pay for anyway.
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Post by the light works on Jan 26, 2019 2:29:12 GMT
I had the disks given to me from my father in law who got them free from the library. I watched maybe 3 of those disks before they had to be turned back in. I didn't bother renewing the last ones, and honestly haven't had any desire to. I will admit I have some curiosity as to how they end the season and wondering if it has a course correction. But it's not enough of a curiosity to even take the minor effort needed to check them out of the library. reminds me of how I rate movies (best to worst) 1: worth paying to see on the big screen 2: worth paying extra to get it as soon as it comes to video. 3: worth bumping to the head of the netflix queue 4: worth putting on the netflix queue 5: worth setting the DVR for. 6: if it happens to be on TV, I won't bother changing the channel 7: I WILL change the channel.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 26, 2019 15:56:14 GMT
The Orville is now available on iTunes, and much to my surprise isn't over priced. It seems to be under £10 for the entire first season.
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Post by the light works on Jan 26, 2019 17:07:40 GMT
The Orville is now available on iTunes, and much to my surprise isn't over priced. It seems to be under £10 for the entire first season. that's the price of a cup of coffee at $tarbucks.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 26, 2019 17:49:23 GMT
Discovery news;
Just to show how well Discovery is doing CBS has released the first episode of STD for FREE on YouTube - at least in the US.
So those of you in the US can sit back, relax and have enjoy...The fact that you didn't have to pay to see it.
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