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Post by the light works on Jan 27, 2013 15:46:20 GMT
that was the first thing they tried, and if there is a handy hillside to bury it in, they still do that. they found bending them down and bury them only means you don't always have tire tracks to follow when you are looking for the wreckage. they have a machine here that drives new posts for the guardrails. so the only delay in replacing them is the time it takes to file all the paperwork in triplicate and wait for the crews to get back from vacation. I once saw a time a guardrail was flattened and they had it replaced in the same month. (that was another messy truck wreck - truckload of paper rolls tried to take the corner too fast and laid it down.)
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Post by c64 on Jan 27, 2013 16:43:30 GMT
Guard rails in the uk, the end section is sent downwards and buried in the sand.... Guard rails are also easy-fix, its been looked at, and having the rail ripped off is MUCH better than the vehicle leaving the carriageway, and replacing rails should be easy .... Same here! And the end sections buried in the ground is often good for funny pictures:
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Post by srmarti on Jan 27, 2013 16:54:48 GMT
I've heard the situation described as understeer scares the driver where oversteer scares the passenger.
I suppose neutral with a predictable transition is safer or more accurately, I feel comfortable with a little less understeer than average. Then again, I've put lots of miles on rear engine cars.
Which are you more comfortable with? Sliding off the road forwards or backwards?
I think understeer is generally considered "safer" for the average driver.
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Post by rory on Jan 28, 2013 17:16:22 GMT
I've heard understeer is a slower process than oversteer so more people have a better chance of controlling it.
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Post by the light works on Jan 28, 2013 17:29:34 GMT
I've heard understeer is a slower process than oversteer so more people have a better chance of controlling it. that hasn't been my experience.
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Post by c64 on Jan 28, 2013 18:17:34 GMT
I've heard understeer is a slower process than oversteer so more people have a better chance of controlling it. that hasn't been my experience. Also you can hit the brakes to slow down as fast as possible. When oversteering, hitting the brakes hard can make the car crash anywhere and you can't recover while when understeering,m you can brake hard, release the brake and try to steer again.
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Post by the light works on Jan 28, 2013 18:21:04 GMT
that hasn't been my experience. Also you can hit the brakes to slow down as fast as possible. When oversteering, hitting the brakes hard can make the car crash anywhere and you can't recover while when understeering,m you can brake hard, release the brake and try to steer again. so now your front wheels are both skidding AND not turning. how does that make your situation better?
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 29, 2013 7:37:47 GMT
Under-steer, when you turn right, the car wants to carry on in a straight line, and dead ahead is a brick wall..... Over-steer, you start to change lanes and turn right instead, again, facing a brick wall.
I had a mini that used to throttle steer for fun on bends, mainly because it had a lot more power that the "1000cc" badge on the boot claimed, and getting round a bend at speed was a balancing act between speed, under-steer and throttle... If it comes to it, I would prefer that setup if it was that or over-steer... In Comparison, my current car is a tad "Twitchy" on the steering at low speed, its power steering, now against previous cars that didnt have power steering, (That was a few years ago?.. ) I have the ability to get into trouble a lot faster when doing bendy bits..........
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Post by the light works on Jan 29, 2013 15:10:03 GMT
understeer: when the road bends right, you turn the wheel right, and the car proceeds straight ahead.
oversteer: when the road bends right, you turn the wheel rignt, and the car turns right further than you intended.
to me, having the steering wheel spontaneously change from a control device to a decoration is about as stomach churning as having the horizon abruptly start tilting to the side. (and I was able to steer out of the latter, before it went all the way over)
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Post by c64 on Jan 29, 2013 17:25:34 GMT
Under-steer, when you turn right, the car wants to carry on in a straight line, and dead ahead is a brick wall.... That's total loss of control. Under-steering is when the car follows the turn less tight than you command by the steering wheel. At first, turning the steering wheel further fixes this but done too much, you get to the total loss of control thing without warning!
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Post by the light works on Jan 30, 2013 15:41:54 GMT
Under-steer, when you turn right, the car wants to carry on in a straight line, and dead ahead is a brick wall.... That's total loss of control. Under-steering is when the car follows the turn less tight than you command by the steering wheel. At first, turning the steering wheel further fixes this but done too much, you get to the total loss of control thing without warning! this thread is about loss of control. but even if you are talking about retaining control, I still prefer oversteer to understeer, because oversteer is more fun. that's why you see in drifting exhibitions, they are all drifting with oversteer instead of understeer.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 31, 2013 8:43:03 GMT
(quote)Under-steer, when you turn right, the car wants to carry on in a straight line, and dead ahead is a brick wall....(end quote)
To which C64 reckons is loss of control.... is it?... since when?... Can someone explain when "Wants to" as written above becomes "Does"?... Loss of control is hitting the wall, being in total control is knowing its going to WANT to go straight and doing something about it.... NOT doing something about it is, of course, foolish.... I dont think anyone posting on this thread is that foolish?...
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Post by c64 on Feb 5, 2013 17:52:24 GMT
(quote)Under-steer, when you turn right, the car wants to carry on in a straight line, and dead ahead is a brick wall....(end quote) To which C64 reckons is loss of control.... is it?... since when?... Total loss of control is when the presence of the brick wall matters.
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Post by alabastersandman on Feb 6, 2013 7:28:57 GMT
Under steer or Over steer... if you can set a car either way, why not set it as neither?... Otherwise, know which its going to do and drive accordingly.... Mine will under-steer at speed, so I slow for corners........ ....... Or am I over simplifying this too much?.... well, obviously, balanced slip is best. but that is more work than many carmakers want to be bothered with. I read an article in one of the many car magazines I used to read where the author says he was told by a factory rep that they built under-steer into their cars for a very specific reason. That reason was simply to make the driver think they were close to the edge of control before they actually were. This was a calculated measure to save the average (or below average) driver from themselves. This told me one thing when I read it. It told me that under-steer was out of control before over-steer was out of control. That was 43-44 years or so ago, and put to the test many thousands of times since then, it was proved to be true each and every time. Fortunately, for those cases where you end up in under-steer, you can often induce over-steer by stomping on the throttle. Over-steer can be your friend, under-steer is good for one thing and one thing only, to try to keep people who don't drive well from driving the car beyond its capabilities, and that is certainly not guaranteed. You can't "drive" a car in a sever under-steer, you are along for the ride, in over-steer you still have options.
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Post by alabastersandman on Feb 6, 2013 7:32:23 GMT
I've heard the situation described as understeer scares the driver where oversteer scares the passenger. ;D I'll have to remember that one, good description!
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Post by the light works on Feb 6, 2013 15:35:24 GMT
well, obviously, balanced slip is best. but that is more work than many carmakers want to be bothered with. I read an article in one of the many car magazines I used to read where the author says he was told by a factory rep that they built under-steer into their cars for a very specific reason. That reason was simply to make the driver think they were close to the edge of control before they actually were. This was a calculated measure to save the average (or below average) driver from themselves. This told me one thing when I read it. It told me that under-steer was out of control before over-steer was out of control. That was 43-44 years or so ago, and put to the test many thousands of times since then, it was proved to be true each and every time. Fortunately, for those cases where you end up in under-steer, you can often induce over-steer by stomping on the throttle. Over-steer can be your friend, under-steer is good for one thing and one thing only, to try to keep people who don't drive well from driving the car beyond its capabilities, and that is certainly not guaranteed. You can't "drive" a car in a sever under-steer, you are along for the ride, in over-steer you still have options. my sentiments exactly.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 7, 2013 9:31:35 GMT
{quote]You can't "drive" a car in a sever under-steer, you are along for the ride, in over-steer you still have options.
Can you though?...
Presuming its a car I know well, and is Front wheel Drive, and I know the road/conditions/etc and am "Pushing".... perhaps even a Rally on mixed surfaces / partially loose surface (gravel or snow?...) or even on tarmac if I am planning to change tyres in the near future.... I can drive severe under-steer into a corner, and "Throttle steer" as I am slowing down..... then balance the throttle and steering to take the corner... However, I will know already that I WILL get under-steer before I take that corner and am already planning the "attack"... if thats the right expression?.... I can under-steer all the way round the corner, and already be on the power as I am exiting the corner.......
Hmmm........ Just a thought..... Is this the same sort of idea a "drifting" a rear-wheel drive round a corner?... or is it a power-slide sort of thing?....
I have done that in a Mini on a rally stage, "Just for fun" event, I didnt care about how far up the leader-boards I would get, it was an experience thing.... But I got third in class.
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Post by the light works on Feb 7, 2013 14:38:46 GMT
{quote]You can't "drive" a car in a sever under-steer, you are along for the ride, in over-steer you still have options. Can you though?... Presuming its a car I know well, and is Front wheel Drive, and I know the road/conditions/etc and am "Pushing".... perhaps even a Rally on mixed surfaces / partially loose surface (gravel or snow?...) or even on tarmac if I am planning to change tyres in the near future.... I can drive severe under-steer into a corner, and "Throttle steer" as I am slowing down..... then balance the throttle and steering to take the corner... However, I will know already that I WILL get under-steer before I take that corner and am already planning the "attack"... if thats the right expression?.... I can under-steer all the way round the corner, and already be on the power as I am exiting the corner....... Hmmm........ Just a thought..... Is this the same sort of idea a "drifting" a rear-wheel drive round a corner?... or is it a power-slide sort of thing?.... I have done that in a Mini on a rally stage, "Just for fun" event, I didnt care about how far up the leader-boards I would get, it was an experience thing.... But I got third in class. right up until you cross the line, and change from a driver to a passenger. then you sail off into the scenery.
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Post by alabastersandman on Feb 8, 2013 5:47:30 GMT
{quote]You can't "drive" a car in a sever under-steer, you are along for the ride, in over-steer you still have options. Can you though?... Presuming its a car I know well, and is Front wheel Drive, and I know the road/conditions/etc and am "Pushing".... perhaps even a Rally on mixed surfaces / partially loose surface (gravel or snow?...) or even on tarmac if I am planning to change tyres in the near future.... I can drive severe under-steer into a corner, and "Throttle steer" as I am slowing down..... then balance the throttle and steering to take the corner... However, I will know already that I WILL get under-steer before I take that corner and am already planning the "attack"... if thats the right expression?.... I can under-steer all the way round the corner, and already be on the power as I am exiting the corner....... Hmmm........ Just a thought..... Is this the same sort of idea a "drifting" a rear-wheel drive round a corner?... or is it a power-slide sort of thing?.... I have done that in a Mini on a rally stage, "Just for fun" event, I didnt care about how far up the leader-boards I would get, it was an experience thing.... But I got third in class. " then balance the throttle and steering to take the corner..." Whether front or rear wheel drive, most vehicles will exhibit trailing throttle under-steer and power on over-steer, it is that transition from trailing throttle under-steer entering a corner to throttle induced over-steer at the apex that determines how the vehicle will exit the turn. If you failed to get back on the throttle, the vehicle would continue to plow forward in under-steer. Some vehicles are set up somewhat close to neutral, in fact even many everyday cars re set up closer to neutral these days than they historically have been. The only thing that really changes is that they under-steer less entering a corner in trailing throttle, and will be neutral driving at steady speeds around a bend. You can in any car that has something left in the powerband, induce throttle-on (or power) over-steer. Even in a front wheel drive car you can drift (at least on pavement) if the balance of the vehicle is conducive to it. You obviously won't be lighting up the rear tires but I have had front wheel drives that I could hang the back end out at its upper limits. Lots of fun. I would be more at home on a road course but I'd love the opportunity to drive a rally or two, although of course I'd love to do it in someone else's car.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 8, 2013 6:34:01 GMT
More fun in your own, you push a little harder?....
But that is the art of competitive driving, its driving "On the edge", its having a few close shaves during the race when the scenery gets a close escape, its finishing almost buzzing with the adrenalin hit..........
And no, I dont drive like that now.
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