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Post by wvengineer on Mar 9, 2015 10:13:00 GMT
The ones I have seen have collection tanks around a couple hundred gallons. However, I'm sure larger farms could go bigger.
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Post by the light works on Mar 9, 2015 14:24:22 GMT
The ones I have seen have collection tanks around a couple hundred gallons. However, I'm sure larger farms could go bigger. when you start talking about fire suppression, that ain't much; which was my original thought. I think the minimum onboard water for an engine to be considered a "wildland engine" is now 500 gallons. |
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Post by wvengineer on Mar 9, 2015 23:44:58 GMT
On top of that, I wonder what sap would do to the equipment. While not the viscosity of syrup, it is thinker than water and that would make it harder to pump and to work with. That alone would reduce its performance. Plus they would have to do a major cleaning afterwards of all equipment. Any leftover residue could really mess stuff up. While not as carosive as salt, it would still cause a lot of problems if allowed to sit and dry out.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 10, 2015 8:51:54 GMT
Sap is sugar rich.
I would imagine covering everything with a sugar rich syrup would be bad news?...
The cleanup could be worse than total loss by fire, as cleaning everything back to useable would probably not be cost effective.
Syrup when heated makes toffee, eventually, and getting rid of that is damn hard work.
Plus its extremely sticky.
Back when I was younger, sometime early 80's, I worked in a dry cleaners, who had the contract for cleaning Firemans uniforms, which in those days were heavy woolen based things, and they had had a fire in a sugar factory.
The Trike (Trichloroethylene) we were using as the cleaning agent was good, but not that good, and it took several washes just to get the residue off, then we had to pre-spot them again for the worst deposits, and then after digging out and pressure washing the still to get rid of the mud, we had to clean them again in pristine trike to get any kind of result.
We had an inspection by the fire chief, who was worried about the results, and ordered that we only clean the best condition stuff, the rest would be written off and replaced, as the cost of all this cleaning was getting close to the cost of replacement anyway.
So cleaning burnt syrupy sugar clogged fire damaged clothing is a pain, as for equipment, thats [nasty], I heard one or two fire apparatus and all equipment used that got covered, were in for a weeks chipping off and washing several times to get the reside away.
After which, of course, we got their cleaning uniforms in for treatment....
"Here we go again..."
Of course, I suppose fire equipment and uniforms for the firemen have gotten a bit more non-stick since then?...
But a fore suppressant system clogged with syrup....
Hmmm....
Total loss?...
If it came to letting the fire spread, yes, use it to extinguish the existing fire to protect what it may spread to, but I would presume the whole thing to be written off as total loss.
For consideration.
Where I worked as part of the secure document storage site for Hays IMS.
We had a huge tank of water stored as part of the fire suppressant system.
I took an interest, as the engine to power it was truck sized...
Part of the running instructions were that if it were ever used fully to suppress a serious fire of any sorts, it was recommended that the whole system be stripped and serviced to nuts and bolts rebuild afterwards.
The reason for on-site storage of that much water...
If that storage facility had gone up, the engines would have sucked the whole of Manchester's water supply up within 5 mins, apparently it took a week to fill that tank, it could be emptied within 20 mins of use.
The main supply pipes through the building were a foot thick, minimum...
(It was bigger in volume than an Olympic sized swimming pool)
That storage facility was the biggest fire risk in Central Manchester that wasnt a fuel depot... all that paper....
The fire system inside was just enough to ensure all occupants had time to get out.
After that, the plan was empty the whole of Lancashire of every fire apparatus, raid Cheshire, Derbyshire, Yorkshire and anywhere else for anything they can spare, and tell Liverpool we need all they got as well.
It wasnt so much as a fire alarm, more an air raid warning siren.....
The site is now closed down and moved.
Too much of a risk.
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Post by the light works on Mar 10, 2015 14:28:36 GMT
a lot of people don't know the big fountains in front of plazas are not just there for decoration. they are supplementary firefighting water, same with the big water towers on top of skyscrapers.
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Post by ironhold on Aug 15, 2015 20:22:28 GMT
"Similarly Different"Transformers: Robots In Disguise (2015) Original US Air Date: 15 August 2015 Father and son Denny and Russell Clay live in a travel trailer on the premises of Denny's salvage yard. After a night of particularly loud snoring on Denny's part, Russell decides that different sleeping accommodations are in order. In response, Denny goes to fix up an old caravan that Russell can live in all on his own. The final touch on the repair project involves mounting a "rooftop entertainment center" consisting of an arcade cabinet and a pinball table that are affixed (along with railing) to a metal plate. (It almost appears that he's using an electromagnet to move everything, which would destroy the games.) Unfortunately for everyone, the weight of the rig is so much that it crushes the caravan. Specifically, it crushes only the rear portion of the vehicle; the front portion is simply bowed back slightly but is otherwise relatively intact. 1. How much weight can an old caravan reasonably mount on the roof before the roof gives way? 2. In the event that a caravan did get flattened under similar circumstances, would the front end survive in the fashion demonstrated? One would think that unless the metal plate was simply that heavy, the only way the caravan would collapse like that is if it was heavily damaged or nearly rusted through. A gag early in the episode does show one of the wheels falling off, but otherwise there's no reason to believe that Denny wouldn't have noticed any structural issues before attempting work on it.
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Post by the light works on Aug 16, 2015 5:34:56 GMT
"Similarly Different"Transformers: Robots In Disguise (2015) Original US Air Date: 15 August 2015 Father and son Denny and Russell Clay live in a travel trailer on the premises of Denny's salvage yard. After a night of particularly loud snoring on Denny's part, Russell decides that different sleeping accommodations are in order. In response, Denny goes to fix up an old caravan that Russell can live in all on his own. The final touch on the repair project involves mounting a "rooftop entertainment center" consisting of an arcade cabinet and a pinball table that are affixed (along with railing) to a metal plate. (It almost appears that he's using an electromagnet to move everything, which would destroy the games.) Unfortunately for everyone, the weight of the rig is so much that it crushes the caravan. Specifically, it crushes only the rear portion of the vehicle; the front portion is simply bowed back slightly but is otherwise relatively intact. 1. How much weight can an old caravan reasonably mount on the roof before the roof gives way? 2. In the event that a caravan did get flattened under similar circumstances, would the front end survive in the fashion demonstrated? One would think that unless the metal plate was simply that heavy, the only way the caravan would collapse like that is if it was heavily damaged or nearly rusted through. A gag early in the episode does show one of the wheels falling off, but otherwise there's no reason to believe that Denny wouldn't have noticed any structural issues before attempting work on it. 1: somewhat less than the weight of a construction worker. 2" maybe - depends on the design. |
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Post by ironhold on Aug 26, 2015 21:56:55 GMT
"In Search of The Griffin's Nest"Transformers: Rescue Bots episode #42 Original US Air Date: June 7, 2014 (I originally tossed this episode down the memory hole because of how terrible the overall writing is, but there is still a scientific element to explore.) In the episode, an earthquake sensor falls over and impacts on top of a rock containing ferrous metal. The impact shatters the casing, exposing the electronics inside to the metal in question. Each time a tremor is detected, the sensor tries to send notice back to the home laboratory. This sets off an electrical current that goes through the metal... which runs through the entire island that the sensor is located on. Even though the electrical current is likely quite small, it still somehow manages to briefly energize everything, thus turning the entire island into a lodestone. This creates an inadvertent electromagnet of such potency that it grabs cars off of a neighboring island and pulls them towards it. 1. What sort of force would be needed for an electromagnet to pick up and move a car? 2. How much electrical current would be required? 3. Does the amount of metal involved affect this?
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Post by the light works on Aug 27, 2015 0:59:01 GMT
"In Search of The Griffin's Nest"Transformers: Rescue Bots episode #42 Original US Air Date: June 7, 2014 (I originally tossed this episode down the memory hole because of how terrible the overall writing is, but there is still a scientific element to explore.) In the episode, an earthquake sensor falls over and impacts on top of a rock containing ferrous metal. The impact shatters the casing, exposing the electronics inside to the metal in question. Each time a tremor is detected, the sensor tries to send notice back to the home laboratory. This sets off an electrical current that goes through the metal... which runs through the entire island that the sensor is located on. Even though the electrical current is likely quite small, it still somehow manages to briefly energize everything, thus turning the entire island into a lodestone. This creates an inadvertent electromagnet of such potency that it grabs cars off of a neighboring island and pulls them towards it. 1. What sort of force would be needed for an electromagnet to pick up and move a car? 2. How much electrical current would be required? 3. Does the amount of metal involved affect this? slightly outside my skill set, but I believe the strength of an electromagnet is based on the number of windings and the characteristics of the core. so in your example, there is less than one winding, and the quality of the core is unknown. but assuming a best case scenario, I think there would have to be a phenomenal current in order to create enough magnetic flux to reach that far. and by phenomenal I mean brown out a major city levels of power. |
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Post by wvengineer on Aug 27, 2015 22:27:52 GMT
It's been a while since I have dealt with this, so this is off of memory. When it comes to electromagnetism, magnet power is proportional to current. Voltage is not a factor in the equations. High power electromagnets are low voltage but very high current. Systems have to be designed to handle the high current. The circuits of a typical seismometer are designed to only handle at most a few amps. The current needed to make a magnet of any reasonable power would fry the electronics of the device.
Next as to it pulling cars from a neighbouring island: Magnet force follows the inverse square law. Double the distance, field strength goes down by a factor of 4. So depending on how for the islands are apart, in order to get enough force to pull a car any distance, the magnetic field source would have to be so powerful that it would crush any magnetic metal thing on the home island. Rip nails out of wood. crush cars under their own weight. It would probably also disrupt the electrical impulses in an animal's nervous system, killing any animal not already killed by flying metal.
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Post by wvengineer on Aug 28, 2015 1:49:15 GMT
Unfortunately for everyone, the weight of the rig is so much that it crushes the caravan. Specifically, it crushes only the rear portion of the vehicle; the front portion is simply bowed back slightly but is otherwise relatively intact. 1. How much weight can an old caravan reasonably mount on the roof before the roof gives way? 2. In the event that a caravan did get flattened under similar circumstances, would the front end survive in the fashion demonstrated? One would think that unless the metal plate was simply that heavy, the only way the caravan would collapse like that is if it was heavily damaged or nearly rusted through. A gag early in the episode does show one of the wheels falling off, but otherwise there's no reason to believe that Denny wouldn't have noticed any structural issues before attempting work on it. Depends. Depends on how well engineering it is to start with and what condition it is in. A cheap design may not have been able to hold much to start with. Other designes are more robust. It is possible there was damage in the walls and was not obvious to a quick inspection. Too many questions to give a good answer. |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 31, 2015 9:37:05 GMT
A Magnet that strong.... what you going to tie it down with?...
What pulls in one direction, pulls in the other.(shorthand For every action...)
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 31, 2015 9:38:27 GMT
The first responsible Transformer Myth....
Can you even fold a robot into a car and have a car that can be driven.
As a car that is.
Sure you can put electronic wheels and batteries, but I mean a full petrol breathing tyre spinning sports car that can do 0-60(-0) in reasonable times that are not calendar months, with seating for four full grown adults and boot space......
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Post by ironhold on Apr 28, 2016 4:12:36 GMT
"Bridge Building"Transformers: Rescue Bots episode #80 Original US Air Date: April 23, 2016 An accident has left two Autobots and their human allies stranded in the middle of a desert. As part of it, the four manage to fall into a sinkhole. When climbing and driving up the walls both fail due to the ever-shifting sand, one of the pair has an idea. The member of the team is able to transform into a boat - reference pic - and so intends to use his smooth hull to get them out. As soon as he transforms, the others climb on top of him. The second Autobot deploys a grappling hook launcher and successfully hooks an outcropping of rock. Between the pull of the launcher's winch mechanism and the push of the boat motors, they're able to escape. 1. Could a boat with a sufficiently smooth hull manage to move through sand? 2. Even if it could move, could its motors and propellers actually power it through?
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Post by the light works on Apr 28, 2016 14:10:20 GMT
"Bridge Building"Transformers: Rescue Bots episode #80 Original US Air Date: April 23, 2016 An accident has left two Autobots and their human allies stranded in the middle of a desert. As part of it, the four manage to fall into a sinkhole. When climbing and driving up the walls both fail due to the ever-shifting sand, one of the pair has an idea. The member of the team is able to transform into a boat - reference pic - and so intends to use his smooth hull to get them out. As soon as he transforms, the others climb on top of him. The second Autobot deploys a grappling hook launcher and successfully hooks an outcropping of rock. Between the pull of the launcher's winch mechanism and the push of the boat motors, they're able to escape. 1. Could a boat with a sufficiently smooth hull manage to move through sand? 2. Even if it could move, could its motors and propellers actually power it through? the first part would be a yes. airboats are proof of that. - although it is actually sliding over sand. the second part would most likely be no - not with a conventional propeller. there are a few experimental amphibious vehicles whose drive mechanisms can work in sand. |
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 29, 2016 5:34:23 GMT
There was an experimental craft that sat on two large tube pontoons that had the Archimedes screw arangement on them, they rotated.
That would work on land or water.
But conventional water screw would shatter in sand... thats what many outboards have a guard to prevent striking the beach, should the transom arrangement allow it to tilt, it will tip upwards if it strikes anything.
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Post by the light works on Apr 29, 2016 13:08:26 GMT
There was an experimental craft that sat on two large tube pontoons that had the Archimedes screw arangement on them, they rotated. That would work on land or water. But conventional water screw would shatter in sand... thats what many outboards have a guard to prevent striking the beach, should the transom arrangement allow it to tilt, it will tip upwards if it strikes anything. the key factor is that sand has a very small amount of surface friction and a very large amount of inertial resistance. you can slide over sand pretty easily, as long as you can stay on top. trying to push something through sand is very slow and hard. I suppose you could say it has some characteristics of a non newtonian fluid, without actually being a fluid. |
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 30, 2016 5:46:09 GMT
There was an experimental craft that sat on two large tube pontoons that had the Archimedes screw arangement on them, they rotated. That would work on land or water. But conventional water screw would shatter in sand... thats what many outboards have a guard to prevent striking the beach, should the transom arrangement allow it to tilt, it will tip upwards if it strikes anything. the key factor is that sand has a very small amount of surface friction and a very large amount of inertial resistance. you can slide over sand pretty easily, as long as you can stay on top. trying to push something through sand is very slow and hard. I suppose you could say it has some characteristics of a non newtonian fluid, without actually being a fluid. Trust me on this, it makes a mess of the blades, I have had experience of a prop with no blade guard that did hit the sand, it was a right mess, and that even after the boat owner quickly stopped the engine?. We had his boat back for repair after he hit a sand bar. quite hard, and ripped the rubbing strip off the keel. This was a RIB with a metal rubbing strip that he had put on because he knew he would eventually be hitting a sand bar. Why he didnt get a guard for his prop, I will never know. |
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Post by the light works on Apr 30, 2016 6:29:29 GMT
the key factor is that sand has a very small amount of surface friction and a very large amount of inertial resistance. you can slide over sand pretty easily, as long as you can stay on top. trying to push something through sand is very slow and hard. I suppose you could say it has some characteristics of a non newtonian fluid, without actually being a fluid. Trust me on this, it makes a mess of the blades, I have had experience of a prop with no blade guard that did hit the sand, it was a right mess, and that even after the boat owner quickly stopped the engine?. We had his boat back for repair after he hit a sand bar. quite hard, and ripped the rubbing strip off the keel. This was a RIB with a metal rubbing strip that he had put on because he knew he would eventually be hitting a sand bar. Why he didnt get a guard for his prop, I will never know. I've clocked average speeds of 30 MPH, in 40 MPH winds. one guy made plastic skis and he could get 75% of wind speed with a third the sail area I preferred to use. |
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 30, 2016 6:53:12 GMT
Trust me on this, it makes a mess of the blades, I have had experience of a prop with no blade guard that did hit the sand, it was a right mess, and that even after the boat owner quickly stopped the engine?. We had his boat back for repair after he hit a sand bar. quite hard, and ripped the rubbing strip off the keel. This was a RIB with a metal rubbing strip that he had put on because he knew he would eventually be hitting a sand bar. Why he didnt get a guard for his prop, I will never know. I've clocked average speeds of 30 MPH, in 40 MPH winds. one guy made plastic skis and he could get 75% of wind speed with a third the sail area I preferred to use. OK, so, suggestion, get a large pair of ski's, maybe a sail, and get to speed with that. If you were to go with a different form of propulsion over sand, would a propeller be your first choice?... I didnt think so.  Strapping a prop to your backside, maybe not so good. However.... Strapping the prop from an Air-Boat, or Hovercraft, the ones that do air propulsion, maybe even a micro-light engine and prop...?... Yeah, that may work. But of your propulsion was against the sand, you would choose a wheel over a prop, even if boat owners refer to the prop as the wheel, that dont mean they even think it would work on mud, let alone sand.?... |
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