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Post by silverdragon on May 25, 2014 10:31:40 GMT
I cant find it..... Which is annoying in its self.
However, after a recent discussion on this forum, I went looking for the reasons we actually transmit electrical power down power lines in AC.
"Someone", and I wont name them just yet, in history when the idea of power generation came to being, did the rese4arch, and worked out that AC transmitted over distance a hell of a lot easier than DC.....
This is the bit I cant find. Who was it that did that initial research, and why...
And, most importantly, were they right?....
If you had to transmit power over a set distance, would it make more sense to use AC or DC.
I am getting "Strange" results when I try to look for this answer... the best I can come up with is
It Depends
In that, if the intended use is DC, and its short distance, as in the end of a short road, DC is best.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 25, 2014 12:48:30 GMT
There is no question that DC is best for long distance, high voltage electrical power transmission, the problem was getting the high voltage DC.
Losses in long distance transmissions lines come mostly from the resistance of the wire. Resistance to what? Current. The higher the current, the greater the losses. In fact, the losses rise with the square of the current. So if you double the current, the losses are four times as great. Voltage has nothing to do with it as far as the wires are concerned. There are additional losses in transmission lines but these are only associated with AC and not DC, so DC has additional advantages here.
If the wires don't care about voltage, why use high voltage? Here's where high voltage has the advantage. If you double the voltage, you can transmit the same amount of power at half the current. And since the losses in transmission lines are caused by current, not voltage, that means that your losses are half as much for the same power. So the idea of long distance transmission of electrical power is to do it at as high a voltage as possible. Until recently (past 30 years or so), converting DC to high voltages and back was difficult. Not so for AC. All you needed was a simple transformer on each end of the transmission line. One to boost the voltage and another to lower it back down for local distribution.
With advances in solid-state electronics, it is now easy to convert high voltage AC to DC and then back to AC again at the other end. This wasn't possible back in the early days of power transmission so that's why AC was used. Now, most large high voltage transmission lines use DC.
DC also has an advantage when trying to connect two countries that use different frequency AC, such as 50 and 60 Hz, but that's another topic.
So that's pretty much the short of it (pardon the pun). I could go into a lot longer discourse of why AC losses are higher than DC on high voltage lines, but I doubt that most readers of his board would be interested. I'll leave AC charging losses and induced voltage zapping cows and causing corrosion in nearby pipe lines for C64 to explain.
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Post by the light works on May 25, 2014 14:48:08 GMT
the original patent war was between Edison and Westinghouse. one had invested in end use equipment for DC, and the other in AC
as Greg says, there is some extra power loss in AC, but at the time there wasn't enough to offset the advantage of being able to very easily adjust the voltage.
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Post by silverdragon on May 26, 2014 7:00:41 GMT
"National Power Grid".... If you look into the history of power grids, England not only had different "flavours" of power, dependant on the city, but even differing Plugs. And no power adaptors. Your Lightbulb in Birmingham wouldnt even fit into the holder in Croydon.
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Post by the light works on May 26, 2014 13:50:10 GMT
"National Power Grid".... If you look into the history of power grids, England not only had different "flavours" of power, dependant on the city, but even differing Plugs. And no power adaptors. Your Lightbulb in Birmingham wouldnt even fit into the holder in Croydon. proprietary fittings are a pain in the (posterior)
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Post by silverdragon on May 27, 2014 8:07:27 GMT
Keep Watching... After years of pressure, Mobile machines will soon all adopt a world-wide standard for charger and USB. ALL usb leads will be reversible, same size of micro usb, and all chargers will "be the same", same charge rate and same adapter.
Its only taken how many years?...
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Post by c64 on May 27, 2014 11:42:28 GMT
For transmitting power over wires, it doesn't matter if it is AC or DC.
Edison came up with DC and 110V. 110V because he kept touching higher and higher voltages and 110V was the limit where he didn't receive an intense electric shock. The human skin is a very good insulator but at a certain voltage, the skin "breaks" and turns into a very good conductor. The problem is that the voltage depends on the condition and "thickness" of the skin. Edison who worked a lot with his hands was very tolerant to high voltages. Different humans have different "break through" voltages. This voltage is somewhere between 50V and 200V for dry, healthy skin. That's why Edison planned his power system for 110V and produced 110V light bulbs. Since Edison had the patent for the light bulb and he came up with a lot of electric hardware like fuses, wires, switches and even power meters also all designed for 110V, the very first power stations around the US all used 110V.
Edison used DC because it had many advantages. If the load changes, you need to adapt the power of the power plants to the load. In case of DC, the RPM of the steam engine driving a DC Generator is proportional to the power generated. By increasing or decreasing the RPM, the power can be regulated very easily to keep a constant voltage. Also you can simply connect more generators in parallel and control them independently. Also you can hook lead-acid accumulators to the system which charge when more power is generated than used and discharge when less power is generated. A very simple and highly effective method to balance the power grid. Something we badly need nowadays with all the unreliable alternative power sources like wind power.
The competition had to use AC because Edison's patents were all restricted to DC, so the only way to enter the market was using AC. Using AC has its own advantages. You can use transformers. You can step up and down the voltage very easily with a simple and passive system. Losses, like Greg had already pointed out come from resistance of the wires. When you double the voltage, you need only half the current to convey the very same amount of power. Half the current means half the voltage drop over the wires. Half the voltage drop multiplied with half the current means ¼ of the losses over the wires. 4 times the voltage gives you ¼ of the current which in turn causes 1/16 of the losses. In a modern power grid, they use even more than 1000 times the voltage which translates to less than a millionth of the losses using the same wire gauge. This allows long distance power transmission with reasonable losses and reasonable costs for the transmission lines. You just don't need less copper, you can even use the lighter and cheaper aluminum. And lighter wires allow less and cheaper power poles which also cuts costs dramatically. But AC has lots of disadvantages, too! The major disadvantage is that switching the polarity in a sine wave causes gaps in the power with little and no voltage at all. To compensate, you need to increase the voltage to convey the same effective power and make light bulbs glow as bright. Whenever AC is used, the voltage rating is measured in "effective". So 110Veff AC is not the same as 110V DC! The peak voltage (Û) is 1.42 times higher than the rated Voltage (Ueff). And Û is what breaks the resistance of the skin, so Edison’s "Voltage which is safe for working class human hands" turns "lethal to almost everybody". This was Edison’s main argument against using AC to keep his monopoly of the market. And there are more disadvantages. The impedance of coils in electric motors is frequency dependent. You need bigger coils using AC and the efficiency of the motors decreases. And much worse is the lower torque of slow running motors. So you have bigger motors with less efficiency and unable to start high loads turning. That's why all railroad and streetcars operate with DC motors or related. Originally by using DC on the feeder wires and rails, nowadays using rectifiers and other systems to solve the problem of AC. And even worse, you can't just connect AC generators in parallel. If they are not in sync, they fight against each other which is often worse than a short circuit. You need to keep all AC generators of a power grid running in sync. And even then they still partially fight each other causing losses, losses which can't happen on a DC grid. Also using AC opens another whole can of worms, currents can become out of sync with the voltage. Those currents won't convey any useful power but those additional currents cause more losses on the wires again, decreasing the performance of transformators and generators and lowering the performance of electric motors. Compensating those "blind" currents requires to generate more power than is actually used. ALso capacitors can let AC currents pass. And long power lines are a real capacitor since everything conducting which faces something else is an electric capacitor. The more surface you have, the bigger the electric capacity, and length increases the surface as good as width. So there is a massive blind current "bleeding" out of long power lines.
While using DC is much better for generating and using electric power in most respects, it can't be used for simple long distance power distribution and to create a real power grid.
So in General, AC is real bad but it used to be the only method to allow different voltages in the same system so AC had to be used to create a power grid.
Nowadays, high power semiconductors allow transforming DC voltages up and down just fine so there is no reason to keep using AC on the power grid any more. You still need to provide AC to households for compatibility reasons but there is no need to use it for power distribution any more.
So finally, DC has won the battle of currents. Most household applications run on DC anyway, switching power supplies are everywhere, in computers, most electronic devices, CFL, washing machines, even some modern stoves use DC internally. First thing those devices do is to convert the AC to DC using a rectifier and THEN convert the voltage and make use of the power.
There is only one disadvantage using DC really has. In combination with moisture, DC makes conductors "rot" by galvanic processes. That's why Jamie had much better results using a small DC current dissolving his prison bars than Adam who used a massive AC current. Because if you use AC, most of the damage caused by galvanic processes is reversed 30 times a second (25 times in the EU). This is a great problem for HVDC power lines, but easy to fix. Just reverse the polarity of the line every now and then. Households and all common electric outlets will remain running on AC. First of all to protect the wiring and last but not least for compatibility reasons.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 27, 2014 12:51:44 GMT
Great explanation, C64. Even I learned something from it.
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Post by the light works on May 27, 2014 13:52:43 GMT
Actually, 120VAC is still considered to not be lethal to a healthy person with clean dry skin. human skin is resistive, not dielectric. resistive substances resist the flow of electricity, and greater voltages drive greater currents through it. Dielectrics block the flow of electricity until they reach breakdown voltage, at which point they essentially lose all resistance.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 27, 2014 14:06:36 GMT
Actually, 120VAC is still considered to not be lethal to a healthy person with clean dry skin. Maybe not always lethal, but I've gotten bit pretty good by it a few times.
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Post by the light works on May 27, 2014 14:14:03 GMT
Actually, 120VAC is still considered to not be lethal to a healthy person with clean dry skin. Maybe not always lethal, but I've gotten bit pretty good by it a few times. It is still annoying as hell to me. 240 hurts, and 277 leaves a mark.
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Post by c64 on May 27, 2014 15:22:25 GMT
Actually, 120VAC is still considered to not be lethal to a healthy person with clean dry skin. human skin is resistive, not dielectric. resistive substances resist the flow of electricity, and greater voltages drive greater currents through it. Dielectrics block the flow of electricity until they reach breakdown voltage, at which point they essentially lose all resistance. It's NOT considered as "non lethal". 63Vp is the maximum which is considered as "non lethal" but under very strict circumstances. Even a car battery can kill you if the conditions allow a good current for a long time. It's true that 120V AC usually gives you not more than a major "ouchie" and you have excellent chances to survive. But what kills you is the current density inside your body and the time of exposure. There is no way to pinpoint any voltage, current or time at all! Electricity kills you in 3 ways: 1) The nervous system can become blocked which can kill by respiratory or cardiac arrest or fibrillation as well as by falling from a ladder. 2) An electric current can break up proteins and some broken down proteins are venomous. Electricity can posien your body 3) Electric currents can split up water to oxygen and hydrogen. Gaseous oxygen is the trigger for blood clotting. This makes sure open wounds seal them self quickly. Gas bubbles in your body created by electricity also make your blood clot which is real bad if the blood is still in your body. After a major electric accident, chances are high that you can die within the next 48 hours from stroke or infarction. The resistance of the human skin isn't just a fixed resistance. The protection of the dead layers of the skin can break down chemically from galvanization. This is a function of time and voltage but the voltage is a major factor here. If you touch the probes of a multimeter with the tip of two fingers, it will read somewhere between 5MΩ and 40MΩ. This is the resistance you have when the voltage can't break the skins resistance. Anything below 0.5mA in total running through your entire body is considered as perfectly safe. So in theory, with your 5MΩ, you must touch 2500V in order to reach the "magic number" of 0.5mA. But we all know that this isn't valid at all! When the protection of the skin breaks due to a higher voltage, you turn into a "less than 1kΩ resistor" and this allows a dangerous current with just a few volts. That's why a Tazer uses such high voltages, they are used to break the resistance of skin, clothes and fur. Once the circuit is completed, the current is limited to 0.5mA so the voltage breaks down to a few volts. This is what Grant once meant when he talked about the "second stage" of a tazer. The higher the current density, the lower the time you have got until something bad will happen. It still depends mainly on the circumstances and pure chance touching which voltage for how long will kill you, but many fatal field experiments of lots of self announces experts for electricity experts show that the voltage which is instantly fatal is somewhere around 400V, but long term exposure to anything above 50V is also almost always fatal.
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Post by the light works on May 27, 2014 15:49:31 GMT
Actually, 120VAC is still considered to not be lethal to a healthy person with clean dry skin. human skin is resistive, not dielectric. resistive substances resist the flow of electricity, and greater voltages drive greater currents through it. Dielectrics block the flow of electricity until they reach breakdown voltage, at which point they essentially lose all resistance. It's NOT considered as "non lethal". 63Vp is the maximum which is considered as "non lethal" but under very strict circumstances. Even a car battery can kill you if the conditions allow a good current for a long time. It's true that 120V AC usually gives you not more than a major "ouchie" and you have excellent chances to survive. But what kills you is the current density inside your body and the time of exposure. There is no way to pinpoint any voltage, current or time at all! Electricity kills you in 3 ways: 1) The nervous system can become blocked which can kill by respiratory or cardiac arrest or fibrillation as well as by falling from a ladder. 2) An electric current can break up proteins and some broken down proteins are venomous. Electricity can posien your body 3) Electric currents can split up water to oxygen and hydrogen. Gaseous oxygen is the trigger for blood clotting. This makes sure open wounds seal them self quickly. Gas bubbles in your body created by electricity also make your blood clot which is real bad if the blood is still in your body. After a major electric accident, chances are high that you can die within the next 48 hours from stroke or infarction. The resistance of the human skin isn't just a fixed resistance. The protection of the dead layers of the skin can break down chemically from galvanization. This is a function of time and voltage but the voltage is a major factor here. If you touch the probes of a multimeter with the tip of two fingers, it will read somewhere between 5MΩ and 40MΩ. This is the resistance you have when the voltage can't break the skins resistance. Anything below 0.5mA in total running through your entire body is considered as perfectly safe. So in theory, with your 5MΩ, you must touch 2500V in order to reach the "magic number" of 0.5mA. But we all know that this isn't valid at all! When the protection of the skin breaks due to a higher voltage, you turn into a "less than 1kΩ resistor" and this allows a dangerous current with just a few volts. That's why a Tazer uses such high voltages, they are used to break the resistance of skin, clothes and fur. Once the circuit is completed, the current is limited to 0.5mA so the voltage breaks down to a few volts. This is what Grant once meant when he talked about the "second stage" of a tazer. The higher the current density, the lower the time you have got until something bad will happen. It still depends mainly on the circumstances and pure chance touching which voltage for how long will kill you, but many fatal field experiments of lots of self announces experts for electricity experts show that the voltage which is instantly fatal is somewhere around 400V, but long term exposure to anything above 50V is also almost always fatal. well, yeah - when I blew a hole in my finger with 277V it stopped being dry unbroken skin. that is ablative damage, not dielectric breakdown. overwhelming resistance is when I tried to put a cover on a shorted HO fluorescent fixture, and got lit up between the fixture and the aluminum ladder. dielectric breakdown is when I tried to put the cover on using a pair of 600V rated pliers and got lit up again. there are two ways current can be limited in a system: by limiting the voltage: I.E. a 120VAC system sill not provide a RMS value above 120V so the current will not exceed voltage/resistance. by limiting the current: I.E. a transformer with an AFC (Available Fault Current) of .5MA will only deliver .5mA of current regardless of how low the resistance gets. at that point, you get voltage drop, just like you get pressure drop in a kinked hose. electrocution is considered to be cardiac arrest caused by electric shock - which is calculated at .5mA for a healthy heart. other forms of electrical related injury have their own defined terminology, with the most common being electrical burns usually caused by the current flash heating bodily fluids or causing arc flash burns. Addendum: second is mechanical injury caused by involuntary muscle spasms.the three factors commonly considered for electrocution are magnitude of current, current path, and duration of contact. further AC vs. DC data: AC electrocution is considered more dangerous thn DC electrocution, because AC electrocution will essentially reset your heart rate to 60 hz (50 in europe) whereas DC electrocution simply stops the heart until current is removed. guess which current a defibrillator uses. (to spell it out, Fibrillation is the term for when the heart is trying to beat so rapidly it cannot effectively move any blood)
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Post by GTCGreg on May 27, 2014 16:26:28 GMT
I think the term "electrocution" is defined simply as being killed by electricity. I'm not sure that AC or DC "electrocution" would mean less dead.
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Post by c64 on May 27, 2014 16:31:04 GMT
well, yeah - when I blew a hole in my finger with 277V it stopped being dry unbroken skin. that is ablative damage, not dielectric breakdown. Just because you didn't notice the split second your skin was able to block the 277V isn't proof that the skin didn't protect you until it had failed. by limiting the voltage: I.E. a 120VAC system sill not provide a RMS value above 120V so the current will not exceed voltage/resistance. 120V AC is measured in RMS, as RMS is the effective voltage. The peak voltage of AC is by the factor of the squareroot of 2 greater than it's AC rating. AC is rated as "effective" so a light bulb and a heater will have the same power throughput. To compensate the "gaps" in AC, the peak voltage of AC is made greater to have the same effective voltage. by limiting the current: I.E. a transformer with an AFC (Available Fault Current) of .5MA will only deliver .5mA of current regardless of how low the resistance gets. at that point, you get voltage drop, just like you get pressure drop in a kinked hose. Correct. And just like with a hose, the pressure to burst the hose is a lot greater than the pressure you have afterward. electrocution is considered to be cardiac arrest caused by electric shock - which is calculated at .5mA for a healthy heart. other forms of electrical related injury have their own defined terminology, with the most common being electrical burns usually caused by the current flash heating bodily fluids or causing arc flash burns. Addendum: second is mechanical injury caused by involuntary muscle spasms.That doesn't change the 3 major effects how electricity can kill you. You don't survive by just using a different name. I avoided to use the term "electrocution" for a reason. the three factors commonly considered for electrocution are magnitude of current, current path, and duration of contact. As I had said, what matters is the current density in your body and this depends on numerous factors including the ones you had listed. The "safe current" of 0.5mA is only a DIN-EN rating for currents entering the body under normal, "DIN-EN certified" circumstances. Of course it can take less or more. further AC vs. DC data: AC electrocution is considered more dangerous thn DC electrocution, because AC electrocution will essentially reset your heart rate to 60 hz (50 in europe) whereas DC electrocution simply stops the heart until current is removed. guess which current a defibrillator uses. (to spell it out, Fibrillation is the term for when the heart is trying to beat so rapidly it cannot effectively move any blood) Fibrillation is one cause of death as I mentioned under 1). The greater danger is the greater peak voltage. The heart isn't a frequency storage device. Fibrilation is never anything near 50Hz since human nerves can't convey much more than 12Hz. There is no way that any nerve could run with 50/60Hz! Fibrillation is actually less than 10Hz and has nothing to do with adopting to an external frequency at all. Even DC shocks can cause fibrillation, the trick of the defibrillator is the massive amount of current density exhausting the nerves instantly.
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Post by the light works on May 27, 2014 16:57:34 GMT
well, yeah - when I blew a hole in my finger with 277V it stopped being dry unbroken skin. that is ablative damage, not dielectric breakdown. Just because you didn't notice the split second your skin was able to block the 277V isn't proof that the skin didn't protect you until it had failed. by limiting the voltage: I.E. a 120VAC system sill not provide a RMS value above 120V so the current will not exceed voltage/resistance. 120V AC is measured in RMS, as RMS is the effective voltage. The peak voltage of AC is by the factor of the squareroot of 2 greater than it's AC rating. AC is rated as "effective" so a light bulb and a heater will have the same power throughput. To compensate the "gaps" in AC, the peak voltage of AC is made greater to have the same effective voltage. by limiting the current: I.E. a transformer with an AFC (Available Fault Current) of .5MA will only deliver .5mA of current regardless of how low the resistance gets. at that point, you get voltage drop, just like you get pressure drop in a kinked hose. Correct. And just like with a hose, the pressure to burst the hose is a lot greater than the pressure you have afterward. electrocution is considered to be cardiac arrest caused by electric shock - which is calculated at .5mA for a healthy heart. other forms of electrical related injury have their own defined terminology, with the most common being electrical burns usually caused by the current flash heating bodily fluids or causing arc flash burns. Addendum: second is mechanical injury caused by involuntary muscle spasms.That doesn't change the 3 major effects how electricity can kill you. You don't survive by just using a different name. I avoided to use the term "electrocution" for a reason. the three factors commonly considered for electrocution are magnitude of current, current path, and duration of contact. As I had said, what matters is the current density in your body and this depends on numerous factors including the ones you had listed. The "safe current" of 0.5mA is only a DIN-EN rating for currents entering the body under normal, "DIN-EN certified" circumstances. Of course it can take less or more. further AC vs. DC data: AC electrocution is considered more dangerous thn DC electrocution, because AC electrocution will essentially reset your heart rate to 60 hz (50 in europe) whereas DC electrocution simply stops the heart until current is removed. guess which current a defibrillator uses. (to spell it out, Fibrillation is the term for when the heart is trying to beat so rapidly it cannot effectively move any blood) Fibrillation is one cause of death as I mentioned under 1). The greater danger is the greater peak voltage. The heart isn't a frequency storage device. Fibrilation is never anything near 50Hz since human nerves can't convey much more than 12Hz. There is no way that any nerve could run with 50/60Hz! Fibrillation is actually less than 10Hz and has nothing to do with adopting to an external frequency at all. Even DC shocks can cause fibrillation, the trick of the defibrillator is the massive amount of current density exhausting the nerves instantly. first; remember: I am an electrician and have been an electrician for over 20 years. during those 20 years I have had first aid training directly related to electrical shock. now: first comment:yes, and if I knock the plastic cover off a splice, it doesn't mean that the cover didn't protect me until I knocked it off, but it DOES mean that the reduction in resistance was due to mechanical removal of the protection, rather than dielectric failure. second comment: and that, boys and girls, is why RMS means "Root Mean Square method of calculating effective voltage" third comment: true. fourth comment: and I didn't use the phrasing "nobody can die in relation to a 120V shock" for a reason. fifth comment: no, the .5mA rating does not consider whether you had your shock happen under DIN approved circumstances or not. in fact, it considers that if you have passed .5mA across your heart you are probably not following any procedures approved by ANY regulating authority. (unless you are having a defibrillator used on you) sixth comment: just because it can't do it doesn't mean it doesn't try. and yes, a heart can go into fribrillation from a DC electrocution or no electrocution at all. that doesn't change the fact that the heart can reboot more easily from a complete shutdown than from fibrillation; and a defibrillator forces a complete shutdown. in geek terms, it is the equivalent of turning it off and back on again.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 27, 2014 16:58:11 GMT
It can take less than 100 micro amps applied directly across the heart to cause fibrillation. That's why hospital ECG (EKG to C64) monitors must be tested to have less than 10 microamps leakage when connected directly to a 120 volt AC line.
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Post by the light works on May 27, 2014 17:04:32 GMT
It can take less than 100 micro amps applied directly across the heart to cause fibrillation. That's why hospital ECG (EKG to C64) monitors must be tested to have less than 10 microamps leakage when connected directly to a 120 volt AC line. the degree of pickiness involved in patient care facilities is incredible to anyone who does not understand the idea of worst case scenarios. you commented about "perfect weather enineering" elsewhere - hospital standards are exactly the opposite.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 27, 2014 17:20:40 GMT
the degree of pickiness involved in patient care facilities is incredible to anyone who does not understand the idea of worst case scenarios. you commented about "perfect weather enineering" elsewhere - hospital standards are exactly the opposite. The "perfect weather" quote wasn't mine, but I do agree with it and what you said.
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Post by the light works on May 27, 2014 17:38:37 GMT
the degree of pickiness involved in patient care facilities is incredible to anyone who does not understand the idea of worst case scenarios. you commented about "perfect weather enineering" elsewhere - hospital standards are exactly the opposite. The "perfect weather" quote wasn't mine, but I do agree with it and what you said. oops. Kharnyb gets the citation credit.
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