|
Post by rmc on Jun 2, 2014 1:41:19 GMT
If it was me, I'd just go with a couple of solar panels and a small DC pump. You could even add a Gel Cell battery if you needed nighttime operation. Yes. I'm thinking any number of "off the shelf", easy-to-do answers have got to be better than anything I could come up with myself. But, it seems sort of fun to consider the possibilities and to try something totally different. At least until I find out why those things are so available up on that shelf, that is.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 2, 2014 2:59:10 GMT
Yes, there are a number of "turn key" solar electric systems. Even some home centers like Menards carries them. Being an electrical engineer and not a plumber, I'd go with an electrical solution if I was doing it. The main thing would be sizing your pump to your needs and then the solar system to the pump. . Do you need a lot of water continually or just an occasional "burst". Can you run a small fountain type pump all day filling your tank or do you need a larger pump that you only occasionally turn on? If the former, than you may want a very simple system to just let the solar panels run a small pump when ever there is enough sunshine. If the tank gets too full, have an overflow that returns water to the source.
If you need to run a large pump occasionally, then you need a system that charges up a battery that, in turn, powers the pump. While this will be a little more complicated, you may be able to even eliminate he tank completely.
Bottom line is that before you can design a system, you need to first define your requirements. How much water do you need? How far do you have to move it? What pressure do you need?
Then list your resources. What's the land topography? Do you have, or can you easily get flowing water? Do you have wind available? A lot of sunlight? Free wood to burn? Kids with way too much energy you can recruit to carry buckets?
Then, after looking at your requirements and your resources, plan your system. There may be a number of solutions. A good engineer picks the best one.
|
|
|
Post by rmc on Jun 2, 2014 3:25:52 GMT
All absolutely true.
And still, there is some sort of jazz about coming up with a unique design answer: so long as it doesn't cost anyone a lot of effort.
But, that's the rub: in taking the risk of doing something "different" you REALLY risk ticking someone off.
So, yeah, the 10 foot climb out of the stagnant pond/ torrent river, (once a year), is weighted heavily by the fact that 100 feet of good 'ol garden hose can supply completely clean tap water IF people are willing to just string the hose across the street to the garden once per week (that's REALLY what's at heart here).
Trying to come up with a innovative, cost-less system (one that is seemingly automatic too) may be asking more than is necessary, of course.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 2, 2014 3:50:24 GMT
If it was me, I'd just go with a couple of solar panels and a small DC pump. You could even add a Gel Cell battery if you needed nighttime operation. there you go spoiling our fun by posting a sensible idea.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 2, 2014 3:54:29 GMT
that's an HVAC system, not a water moving system.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 2, 2014 3:59:52 GMT
I would expect my passive solar check valve system to move water on the order of cups a day at most - so that kind of reduces it to little more than a curiosity.
(basically, a long piece of black poly pipe with a check valve at each end.
you could find a way to put a diaphragm pump on a stationary bicycle, but that would involve someone doing something as well.
depending on the wind, a windmill might be a good working idea - if you can find one that is actually made to work in this day and age.
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Jun 2, 2014 13:00:08 GMT
All absolutely true. And still, there is some sort of jazz about coming up with a unique design answer: so long as it doesn't cost anyone a lot of effort. But, that's the rub: in taking the risk of doing something "different" you REALLY risk ticking someone off. So, yeah, the 10 foot climb out of the stagnant pond/ torrent river, (once a year), is weighted heavily by the fact that 100 feet of good 'ol garden hose can supply completely clean tap water IF people are willing to just string the hose across the street to the garden once per week (that's REALLY what's at heart here). Trying to come up with a innovative, cost-less system (one that is seemingly automatic too) may be asking more than is necessary, of course. If you only need to pump water once a year and don't want to go to too much hassle I'd be tempted to go with the solar array and battery set up - As I noted there may be a scheme in place that would allow you to get some of the cost back and that would certainly be something it may be worth looking into. I'd also be of the thinking that the type of pump you linked to before would be ideal, since pumping water out of a pond naturally runs the risk of clogging the pump. It also seems fairly small and quiet, heck you could probably install it at one end of a wide PVC pipe and just shove it in the pond when you need to drain it rather than have it sitting there all year long. (Come to think of it, that would probably make it reasonably portable. Which in turn means you could charge people for draining their ponds ect which might offset some of the cost over time.) As it seems the ideal type of pump already exists it is really a question as to how to power it. And in your case I'd suspect that steam, as 'cool' as it may sound, would be far more hassle and expensive than it would be worth.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 2, 2014 15:06:30 GMT
All absolutely true. And still, there is some sort of jazz about coming up with a unique design answer: so long as it doesn't cost anyone a lot of effort. But, that's the rub: in taking the risk of doing something "different" you REALLY risk ticking someone off. So, yeah, the 10 foot climb out of the stagnant pond/ torrent river, (once a year), is weighted heavily by the fact that 100 feet of good 'ol garden hose can supply completely clean tap water IF people are willing to just string the hose across the street to the garden once per week (that's REALLY what's at heart here). Trying to come up with a innovative, cost-less system (one that is seemingly automatic too) may be asking more than is necessary, of course. If you only need to pump water once a year and don't want to go to too much hassle I'd be tempted to go with the solar array and battery set up - As I noted there may be a scheme in place that would allow you to get some of the cost back and that would certainly be something it may be worth looking into. I'd also be of the thinking that the type of pump you linked to before would be ideal, since pumping water out of a pond naturally runs the risk of clogging the pump. It also seems fairly small and quiet, heck you could probably install it at one end of a wide PVC pipe and just shove it in the pond when you need to drain it rather than have it sitting there all year long. (Come to think of it, that would probably make it reasonably portable. Which in turn means you could charge people for draining their ponds ect which might offset some of the cost over time.) As it seems the ideal type of pump already exists it is really a question as to how to power it. And in your case I'd suspect that steam, as 'cool' as it may sound, would be far more hassle and expensive than it would be worth. my interpretation is that it is not about draining the pond but about sourcing irrigation water from it.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 3, 2014 1:24:06 GMT
A small wind turbine driving a simple "sucker" pump worked fine for farmers and ranchers for 150 years. They're still in use today. Of if you insist on going solar thermal, maybe something with a Sterling engine? I just don't think your steam/vacuum system is very practical.
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Jun 3, 2014 10:11:32 GMT
Not as written no, it probably isn't practical. But a steam injector system might be viable; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eductor-jet_pump#ProblemsThe principle seems similar, and the design something that you could make at home if you have the skills and equipment. Come to think of it you could probably make such a system using an old electric water heater. That said, having seen exactly what a waterheater is capable of doing if something goes wrong. I'd probably stick with something less potentually explosive. I'd also have to ask where you intend to get the water from? I'd imagine that using water from the pond itself would be a really bad idea.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 3, 2014 13:30:29 GMT
Not as written no, it probably isn't practical. But a steam injector system might be viable; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eductor-jet_pump#ProblemsThe principle seems similar, and the design something that you could make at home if you have the skills and equipment. Come to think of it you could probably make such a system using an old electric water heater. That said, having seen exactly what a waterheater is capable of doing if something goes wrong. I'd probably stick with something less potentually explosive. I'd also have to ask where you intend to get the water from? I'd imagine that using water from the pond itself would be a really bad idea. if he's running electricity to the pond, he might as well install an electric trash pump.
|
|
|
Post by chriso on Jun 3, 2014 18:05:11 GMT
I was going to mention steam ejectors... But the amount of steam they use is rather large. And since you are using it to pump water, not inject it into a boiler, the heat in any steam used is lost in the pumped water. Which makes it very inefficient...
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Jun 4, 2014 8:50:29 GMT
I am looking through this and wondering why the need for heat.
Can I ask what is the water to be used for?... is it just irrigation?...
Either way, if you are pumping out of the creek, always have the hose tail pointing downstream in the creek... that way, large objects will flow past and not block the inlet.
A Small pond pump may do exactly what you want. Small low voltage 12v DC pumps are now quite efficient.... but low flow... they can be run via Solar power.... If you want higher flow you may have to go mains?...
Also electric pumps can run of a very basic timer system.
Going back to steam..... If the cylinder is full of steam, to accelerate the cooling process, inject a fine spray of cold water. This is basically steam power got to be so useful, from Vacuum engines to powered stroke engines, they cooled the steam that not only gave a faster vacuum but converted the steam back into water which could be recycled. High pressure steam one side of the piston and then a vacuum on the other side gave a fairly good efficiency. [at the time]
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 4, 2014 13:36:32 GMT
I am looking through this and wondering why the need for heat. Can I ask what is the water to be used for?... is it just irrigation?... Either way, if you are pumping out of the creek, always have the hose tail pointing downstream in the creek... that way, large objects will flow past and not block the inlet. A Small pond pump may do exactly what you want. Small low voltage 12v DC pumps are now quite efficient.... but low flow... they can be run via Solar power.... If you want higher flow you may have to go mains?... Also electric pumps can run of a very basic timer system. Going back to steam..... If the cylinder is full of steam, to accelerate the cooling process, inject a fine spray of cold water. This is basically steam power got to be so useful, from Vacuum engines to powered stroke engines, they cooled the steam that not only gave a faster vacuum but converted the steam back into water which could be recycled. High pressure steam one side of the piston and then a vacuum on the other side gave a fairly good efficiency. [at the time] the origin of the thread was the question of using a simple engine (AKA machine) to pump water up a small elevation from a pond, and whether you could make one that would use condensation of steam to create a vacuum.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 4, 2014 14:50:26 GMT
Right. I think the thread went from "will this crazy idea I have work" to " I need to get irrigation water out of a pond"
Not exactly sure where it is now but it looks to me like just about every possible solution has be discussed.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 4, 2014 15:33:04 GMT
Right. I think the thread went from "will this crazy idea I have work" to " I need to get irrigation water out of a pond" Not exactly sure where it is now but it looks to me like just about every possible solution has be discussed. sort of "can I build a contraption that will work with less effort than laying a hose across a road (not sure whether it is a traveled road) and rolling it back up?" mixed with "can I buld a contraption that will be less work than getting the rest of my household to participate in watering the garden?" which reminds me I need to check the rain gauge for my garden to determine whether I need to water it after work or not.
|
|
|
Post by rmc on Jun 5, 2014 0:22:28 GMT
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 5, 2014 2:52:27 GMT
My brother would call that "a high tech solution to a low tech problem."
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 5, 2014 4:04:03 GMT
There you go. Just order a 10lb sack of nanos and no more buckets.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 5, 2014 4:06:58 GMT
There you go. Just order a 10lb sack of nanos and no more buckets. having now shown my age...
|
|