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Post by wvengineer on Jul 23, 2014 16:27:22 GMT
Regarding the food issue:
Back when I work for Walmart, I remember that they would throw out melons that had been out too long. They could not sell them even though as far as anyone could tell they were fine to eat. They could not legally sell them due to health department rules. It was very hard for an average person to tell the difference between a fresh melon and a "too old to sell" one.
My point is a there is a big difference between fresh and soft melons, but there is not much difference between between fresh and not-quite-fresh-enough-to-sell. Some base lines test to show that there is a minimal difference in rind strength of the two. That way you only need a couple dozen at most fresh ones to develop the base line and original exploding melon principles and then you can ramp it up all you want with the out of date ones.
Although it is possible that local food regs are stricter than others.
Beyond that, I agree that the trailer itself does not seam to be needed in this myth. You could leave the trailer out and all you need is some form of oven to do your tests in. Heck, could you just a slightly modified kitchen oven? That alone would greatly reduce costs.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 23, 2014 17:58:01 GMT
You'd need to expose the melons to flame, as this would damage the rind and possibly create weak spots that might fail if the internal temperature and pressure gets high enough.
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 24, 2014 1:40:03 GMT
You'd need to expose the melons to flame, as this would damage the rind and possibly create weak spots that might fail if the internal temperature and pressure gets high enough. I actually think our best bet of getting some sort of explosion is if the rind is largely unscathed, but the temperature is driven up so fast that the moisture inside more or less flashes to steam. Damaging the rind is probably more likely to compromise it to the point that it will fail before there's enough pressure inside to provide any 'boom'. Hmm... That gives me an idea... If this is even remotely possible, you should be able to test it with a single melon to begin with. Slice it in half (or drill a hole into it), place some kind of heat source that can reach trailer fire temperatures and be remotely triggered in the middle of it (a small portion of thermite?). Duct tape the two halves together, making sure there's enough that the tape won't fail before the melon does, set off the heat source and see if you can actually flash the moisture to steam quickly enough to get an explosion. If you can't get that kind of pressure from heating the melon from the inside, there's not much chance of heating it enough from the outside, is there? |
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 3:04:06 GMT
You'd need to expose the melons to flame, as this would damage the rind and possibly create weak spots that might fail if the internal temperature and pressure gets high enough. I actually think our best bet of getting some sort of explosion is if the rind is largely unscathed, but the temperature is driven up so fast that the moisture inside more or less flashes to steam. Damaging the rind is probably more likely to compromise it to the point that it will fail before there's enough pressure inside to provide any 'boom'. Hmm... That gives me an idea... If this is even remotely possible, you should be able to test it with a single melon to begin with. Slice it in half (or drill a hole into it), place some kind of heat source that can reach trailer fire temperatures and be remotely triggered in the middle of it (a small portion of thermite?). Duct tape the two halves together, making sure there's enough that the tape won't fail before the melon does, set off the heat source and see if you can actually flash the moisture to steam quickly enough to get an explosion. If you can't get that kind of pressure from heating the melon from the inside, there's not much chance of heating it enough from the outside, is there? you could probably do that by drilling a hole in the side just large enough for your heat source - though the question of what would be an effective heat source may prove relevant. the flash heating idea seems like a promising direction. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 24, 2014 8:16:49 GMT
If its just frozen, then they buy a single setting fridge unit.
I have worked with them...
But I have also worked at the other end with very high technology "environmental control" type things that have temp and humidity controls....
I suppose its what you need for the job.. you cant deliver chilled products like lettuce and milk (Or Melons?..) in a trailer that can and will go down to minus 30degC.
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 24, 2014 8:21:27 GMT
I may have some bad news for this myth.
You all know I keep a Pond, I have Koi Carp, they love watermelon.
(Its good for their diet to eat fruit...)
So I have this watermelon that is going to go for fish food....
I expose one side of the melon to a flame from a blow-torch, it cooked, cracked, split, whatever, and the insides start going to mush.
The fish now have the other half of the melon and are enjoying it, but from what I can see, watermelons are not suitable for testing.
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 10:23:51 GMT
If its just frozen, then they buy a single setting fridge unit. I have worked with them... But I have also worked at the other end with very high technology "environmental control" type things that have temp and humidity controls.... I suppose its what you need for the job.. you cant deliver chilled products like lettuce and milk (Or Melons?..) in a trailer that can and will go down to minus 30degC. I'm sure they do have a thermostat so you can tell it when to stop cooling. I'd guess they also have two models of trailer - as the people who deliver milk don't NEED a trailer that is capable to go to minus 30C (although ice cream delivery does) |
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 24, 2014 11:02:42 GMT
I may have some bad news for this myth. You all know I keep a Pond, I have Koi Carp, they love watermelon. (Its good for their diet to eat fruit...) So I have this watermelon that is going to go for fish food.... I expose one side of the melon to a flame from a blow-torch, it cooked, cracked, split, whatever, and the insides start going to mush. The fish now have the other half of the melon and are enjoying it, but from what I can see, watermelons are not suitable for testing. Which was pretty much what I expected would happen if you expose a single melon to a single flame. The rind is compromised and only part of the insides are cooked, not all of it at once. This was exactly why I said our best shot would be indirect heat all around the melon, or, as I put it in a previous post, chimney effect. The same thing will happen if you attempt to bake a 20 inch loaf of bread by holding a single flame to the middle of it, only heating a small circle of about 2 inches. Those 2 inches will be baked and they'll be so quickly, but the rest will remain unbaked batter. Throw it in a preheated oven with consistent heat all around it and you'll bake the whole thing. Turn the heat up too high and you'll get a charred crust and a gooey center. That's what I think we should be going for with the melons. Heat the entire melon with indirect heat so fast that the moisture inside more or less flashes to steam. The difference between unbaked batter and a melon is that the batter is the same consistency throughout, but the melon has a hard outer shell encasing a much softer center, which, theoretically at least, should mean that the rind has a chance of withstanding the heat longer than the insides. The trick should be to heat the insides to steam and build up pressure before the rind fails. I'm not saying it'll definitely work. I'm just saying, if it's at all possible, I think this is our best shot. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 11:09:46 GMT
I may have some bad news for this myth. You all know I keep a Pond, I have Koi Carp, they love watermelon. (Its good for their diet to eat fruit...) So I have this watermelon that is going to go for fish food.... I expose one side of the melon to a flame from a blow-torch, it cooked, cracked, split, whatever, and the insides start going to mush. The fish now have the other half of the melon and are enjoying it, but from what I can see, watermelons are not suitable for testing. Which was pretty much what I expected would happen if you expose a single melon to a single flame. The rind is compromised and only part of the insides are cooked, not all of it at once. This was exactly why I said our best shot would be indirect heat all around the melon, or, as I put it in a previous post, chimney effect. The same thing will happen if you attempt to bake a 20 inch loaf of bread by holding a single flame to the middle of it, only heating a small circle of about 2 inches. Those 2 inches will be baked and they'll be so quickly, but the rest will remain unbaked batter. Throw it in a preheated oven with consistent heat all around it and you'll bake the whole thing. Turn the heat up too high and you'll get a charred crust and a gooey center. That's what I think we should be going for with the melons. Heat the entire rind with indirect heat so fast that the moisture inside more or less flashes to steam. I'm not saying it'll definitely work. I'm just saying, if it's at all possible, this is our best shot. now that you mention the too hot oven... - it may be melons higher in the pile that have the best chance of flashing to steam, as the ones exposed to higher temperatures have a better chance of burning from the outside before the inside heats sufficiently. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 24, 2014 11:15:37 GMT
Which was pretty much what I expected would happen if you expose a single melon to a single flame. The rind is compromised and only part of the insides are cooked, not all of it at once. This was exactly why I said our best shot would be indirect heat all around the melon, or, as I put it in a previous post, chimney effect. The same thing will happen if you attempt to bake a 20 inch loaf of bread by holding a single flame to the middle of it, only heating a small circle of about 2 inches. Those 2 inches will be baked and they'll be so quickly, but the rest will remain unbaked batter. Throw it in a preheated oven with consistent heat all around it and you'll bake the whole thing. Turn the heat up too high and you'll get a charred crust and a gooey center. That's what I think we should be going for with the melons. Heat the entire rind with indirect heat so fast that the moisture inside more or less flashes to steam. I'm not saying it'll definitely work. I'm just saying, if it's at all possible, this is our best shot. now that you mention the too hot oven... - it may be melons higher in the pile that have the best chance of flashing to steam, as the ones exposed to higher temperatures have a better chance of burning from the outside before the inside heats sufficiently. Exactly! That's why I've been pushing for the 3x3x6 foot 'chamber' with a pile of melons from the very beginning. Direct heat will burn, char and crack the rinds on the bottom melons, but the ones in the higher layers will experience more of an oven effect, giving the softer, moister insides time to boil before the harder, dryer rind fails. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 24, 2014 13:56:23 GMT
An electric heating element would be ideal. MB could make one of their own from heavy duty wiring in the shop if they had to.
Drill hole, insert element and turn on.
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 14:06:47 GMT
An electric heating element would be ideal. MB could make one of their own from heavy duty wiring in the shop if they had to. Drill hole, insert element and turn on. it would have to be pretty robust to produce the rapid heating needed to ensure a flash to steam - without burning out. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 24, 2014 14:22:03 GMT
Hence making one of their own.
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Post by mrfatso on Jul 24, 2014 17:06:14 GMT
Would it be possible make something very similar to What Time Team used to make when they did experimental Archeology in smelting bronze? Some kind of small blast kiln?
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 25, 2014 7:38:15 GMT
Whatever you do, Melons heated from the outside will...
well...
heat from the outside?..
I see no way you can super-heat the inside to flash to steam without cooking the outside and heating that up first.
Yer Cannae change tha' laws of Physics Jim...
I think I have theoretically proved this is a bust before we even start.
You can superheat the melon as a whole and get the whole to flash to steam, but then, where is the containment to make an explosion?...
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 25, 2014 11:56:47 GMT
Whatever you do, Melons heated from the outside will... well... heat from the outside?.. I see no way you can super-heat the inside to flash to steam without cooking the outside and heating that up first. Yer Cannae change tha' laws of Physics Jim... I think I have theoretically proved this is a bust before we even start. You can superheat the melon as a whole and get the whole to flash to steam, but then, where is the containment to make an explosion?... It's more than possible that you're right, but that's what they'll be testing if they pick this up. As I said, I have close to no hopes of this actually working, but if there's any conceivable way it would, I believe superheating and flashing to steam would be what made the difference. I just can't see any other possibility because, as you said, simply burning the rind will just char and crack it and make the insides go mushy. I suspect that superheating will do the same, but I could be wrong. I still think it's our best shot at getting an explosion, if there indeed is one to get at all. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 25, 2014 13:07:12 GMT
Whatever you do, Melons heated from the outside will... well... heat from the outside?.. I see no way you can super-heat the inside to flash to steam without cooking the outside and heating that up first. Yer Cannae change tha' laws of Physics Jim... I think I have theoretically proved this is a bust before we even start. You can superheat the melon as a whole and get the whole to flash to steam, but then, where is the containment to make an explosion?... It would depend in the structural strength of the rind as it is being heated. If it isn't compromised by the heat too much it is possible that it may be able to hold pressurized contents for a short time, which could cause the melon to 'explode' when the rind does split. |
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Post by wvengineer on Jul 25, 2014 13:10:57 GMT
If you are drilling into the melon, why not just hook it up to a hose and pipe in superheated steam? It would give better heat transfer than an electric element.
I guess the issue there is do they have access to a superheated steam source?
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Post by the light works on Jul 25, 2014 13:26:55 GMT
Whatever you do, Melons heated from the outside will... well... heat from the outside?.. I see no way you can super-heat the inside to flash to steam without cooking the outside and heating that up first. Yer Cannae change tha' laws of Physics Jim... I think I have theoretically proved this is a bust before we even start. You can superheat the melon as a whole and get the whole to flash to steam, but then, where is the containment to make an explosion?... now I remember what I wanted to post yesterday - melon in the microwave - to try to replicate the results. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 25, 2014 20:56:43 GMT
If you are drilling into the melon, why not just hook it up to a hose and pipe in superheated steam? It would give better heat transfer than an electric element. I guess the issue there is do they have access to a superheated steam source? I see two problems with that: 1. If too much pressure builds up too quickly, the melon might just shoot off the pipe. 2. If steam comes out of the hole the pipe is fed in through, there's no way of telling if it's the steam from the pipe or steam from the melon's scorched insides that's coming out. With an internal heat source, even if the steam comes out of the hole, rather than blowing the melon up, at least you'll have some indication of how much steam can be produced inside a melon and how fast it can be done. In other words: Even if it fails miserably, you'll still have viable data. |
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