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Post by the light works on Sept 11, 2015 14:24:08 GMT
So, Nuke Mars. Then destroy any hope we ever had of studying a "Developing planet" that isnt Earth... How will we ever work out what makes other planets work if the first thing we do is destroy them, and try and make them something else?.. Is Mars ever going to be a second Earth?. No. Its distance from the sun is completely different, so, there is zero chance that the atmosphere will ever be the same. Its always going to be colder, its half-again as far from the sun as Earth. If we dont leave it as it is, we wont ever find out what the natural weather there is. Do we know for sure there isnt any life on Mars yet?... Isnt that one of the reasons its being studied?. hmm... study a developing planet, or make it our 51st state... which do YOU think America will spring for. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 12, 2015 6:34:04 GMT
So, Nuke Mars. Then destroy any hope we ever had of studying a "Developing planet" that isnt Earth... How will we ever work out what makes other planets work if the first thing we do is destroy them, and try and make them something else?.. Is Mars ever going to be a second Earth?. No. Its distance from the sun is completely different, so, there is zero chance that the atmosphere will ever be the same. Its always going to be colder, its half-again as far from the sun as Earth. If we dont leave it as it is, we wont ever find out what the natural weather there is. Do we know for sure there isnt any life on Mars yet?... Isnt that one of the reasons its being studied?. hmm... study a developing planet, or make it our 51st state... which do YOU think America will spring for. And I thought asking the awkward questions was my job?... I have no idea. And there is the problem.? |
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2015 6:51:22 GMT
hmm... study a developing planet, or make it our 51st state... which do YOU think America will spring for. And I thought asking the awkward questions was my job?... I have no idea. And there is the problem.? that one should be a no-brainer. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 12, 2015 7:14:18 GMT
And I thought asking the awkward questions was my job?... I have no idea. And there is the problem.? that one should be a no-brainer. I had though we were all past the "Claim for king and country" part of exploring space, more of an international effort these days, if UK technology is being used to claim mars as 51st state of USA, we may just take out ball home?...  |
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2015 7:49:34 GMT
that one should be a no-brainer. I had though we were all past the "Claim for king and country" part of exploring space, more of an international effort these days, if UK technology is being used to claim mars as 51st state of USA, we may just take out ball home?... well, the enlightened among us are past it. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 12, 2015 7:56:04 GMT
I had though we were all past the "Claim for king and country" part of exploring space, more of an international effort these days, if UK technology is being used to claim mars as 51st state of USA, we may just take out ball home?... well, the enlightened among us are past it. I wonder just how much is being spent the other side of the iron curtain to possibly throw a spanner in there?... For me?... I would love to see the day when the ISS actually works and ALL the teams around the world get together in one place and combine the efforts for the good of the whole world. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2015 8:03:20 GMT
well, the enlightened among us are past it. I wonder just how much is being spent the other side of the iron curtain to possibly throw a spanner in there?... For me?... I would love to see the day when the ISS actually works and ALL the teams around the world get together in one place and combine the efforts for the good of the whole world. yeah, I'd kinda like to see people work together for mutual benefit, too. |
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 12, 2015 10:04:15 GMT
Eeeerrmmmm.... No. Just no. There's clearly something that the "terraforming Mars" crowd doesn't understand and that's the fact that Mars doesn't have a magnetic field. Without a magnetic field to protect the atmosphere you can release gasses and nuke away to your heart's content, but the solar wind will just blow the atmosphere away, as it has done in the past. Unless the good Mr. Musk has figured out a way to create a megnetic field around Mars, terraforming isn't going to happen. It's just not. I'm sorry, but it's a pipe dream. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 12, 2015 10:14:31 GMT
Question is, can atmosphere exist without magnetic poles?...
I have an inking that some atmosphere can be retained by gravity alone?....
Maybe not Mars though?... it may not be big enough?....
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2015 12:21:46 GMT
Question is, can atmosphere exist without magnetic poles?... I have an inking that some atmosphere can be retained by gravity alone?.... Maybe not Mars though?... it may not be big enough?.... mars does have an atmosphere - they couldn't have dust storms without it. as I understand, it is just not an atmosphere that is useful to humans. |
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 12, 2015 15:16:20 GMT
Question is, can atmosphere exist without magnetic poles?... I have an inking that some atmosphere can be retained by gravity alone?.... Maybe not Mars though?... it may not be big enough?.... mars does have an atmosphere - they couldn't have dust storms without it. as I understand, it is just not an atmosphere that is useful to humans. True. It's a very thin atmosphere, consisting mainly of carbon dioxide and traces of other gases and yes, those are held in place by the planet's gravity. But the reason for the rest of the early martian atmosphere being lost to space a couple of billion years ago is hypothezised to be because of the decline in the magnetic field and not because of the planet's relatively low gravity compared to that of Earth. The low gravity didn't help once the magnetic field became weak enough, but general consesus right now is that without protection from a magnetic field, the atmosphere and lakes/oceans were blown away by the solar wind and other sources of cosmic radiation. If gravity alone had been enough to hold on to high levels of water, nitrogen, oxygen and other gasses at some point, why wouldn't it have continued to be enough? Something else must have been in play to keep it on the surface and the best theory right now is that Mars' liquid metal core turned solid, stopped spinning and swirling and stopped producing a magnetic field strong enough to keep cosmic radiation at bay. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2015 15:38:14 GMT
mars does have an atmosphere - they couldn't have dust storms without it. as I understand, it is just not an atmosphere that is useful to humans. True. It's a very thin atmosphere, consisting mainly of carbon dioxide and traces of other gases and yes, those are held in place by the planet's gravity. But the reason for the rest of the early martian atmosphere being lost to space a couple of billion years ago is hypothezised to be because of the decline in the magnetic field and not because of the planet's relatively low gravity compared to that of Earth. The low gravity didn't help once the magnetic field became weak enough, but general consesus right now is that without protection from a magnetic field, the atmosphere and lakes/oceans were blown away by the solar wind and other sources of cosmic radiation. If gravity alone had been enough to hold on to high levels of water, nitrogen, oxygen and other gasses at some point, why wouldn't it have continued to be enough? Something else must have been in play to keep it on the surface and the best theory right now is that Mars' liquid metal core turned solid, stopped spinning and swirling and stopped producing a magnetic field strong enough to keep cosmic radiation at bay. I haven't read the science. maybe they think the nukes will defrost the core. |
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 12, 2015 15:49:57 GMT
True. It's a very thin atmosphere, consisting mainly of carbon dioxide and traces of other gases and yes, those are held in place by the planet's gravity. But the reason for the rest of the early martian atmosphere being lost to space a couple of billion years ago is hypothezised to be because of the decline in the magnetic field and not because of the planet's relatively low gravity compared to that of Earth. The low gravity didn't help once the magnetic field became weak enough, but general consesus right now is that without protection from a magnetic field, the atmosphere and lakes/oceans were blown away by the solar wind and other sources of cosmic radiation. If gravity alone had been enough to hold on to high levels of water, nitrogen, oxygen and other gasses at some point, why wouldn't it have continued to be enough? Something else must have been in play to keep it on the surface and the best theory right now is that Mars' liquid metal core turned solid, stopped spinning and swirling and stopped producing a magnetic field strong enough to keep cosmic radiation at bay. I haven't read the science. maybe they think the nukes will defrost the core. If that's what Musk thinks, then he really doesn't understand what's going on! The core isn't "frozen". It's solid iron. The chemistry and math suggests that the reason it solidified early in Mars' history was because of three things, as compared to Earth. 1. Mars doesn't have enough mass to produce the pressure to keep iron in a liquid state (in fact, Earth isn't even big enough to create that kind of pressure). 2. Mars doesn't rotate fast enough that the iron is kept from solidifying (Earth does). 3. Mars' moons don't have enough gravitational pull on the planet to create a tidal effect that heats up the planet's interior (our moon does). |
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2015 15:57:18 GMT
I haven't read the science. maybe they think the nukes will defrost the core. If that's what Musk thinks, then he really doesn't understand what's going on! The core isn't "frozen". It's solid iron. The chemistry and math suggests that the reason it solidified early in Mars' history was because of three things, as compared to Earth. 1. Mars doesn't have enough mass to produce the pressure to keep iron in a liquid state (in fact, Earth isn't even big enough to create that kind of pressure). 2. Mars doesn't rotate fast enough that the iron is kept from solidifying (Earth does). 3. Mars' moons don't have enough gravitational pull on the planet to create a tidal effect that heats up the planet's interior (our moon does). as I said, I haven't read the science. It probably isn't a short cut and I'm not even convinced Musk was serious in proposing it. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2015 16:00:32 GMT
note: Steven Colbert is a comedian.
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 12, 2015 16:18:57 GMT
note: Steven Colbert is a comedian. Note: Elon Musk isn't. Colbert was just asking questions and reacting to the answers. Musk made the claim all on his own. I've seen the clip. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 13, 2015 5:37:30 GMT
So where is/was the 'space' experiment to see if a heavy magnetic core can "Trap" an atmosphere?...
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Post by mrfatso on Sept 13, 2015 7:46:05 GMT
The Maths and lab experiments have been done by planetary scientists and physicists, a magnetic filed produced by the motion a hot liquid core will produce the same effect as it has on Earth and prevent the lighter gases from blowing away in the solar wind, without it an dense atmosphere will not last long. Even on the
Earth gases such as Hydrogen and Helium are lost to space to some degree, blown by the solar wind but it is just at a rate that is slow enough for out gassing from the rocks to replenish them.
Mars core became solid faster than the Earths as it is a smaller rocky planet, the core contains fewer of the radionuclides that keep our core hot enough to be liquid. It is not about the core being heavy it is more about it having a liquid state. At one point The core of Mars was liquid and did produce a magnetic field that is why we see evidence of ancient flowing water on the surface, it had a dense enough atmosphere and surface water. The Earths core could theoretically become solid in the same way at some stage, I do not know though if that will actually happen before the Sun enters its Red Giant phase and consumes it.
Most oF the Earths heat is due to the heat of formation and radionuclides, with some caused by Tidal forces from the Moon etc.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 13, 2015 8:31:29 GMT
The Earth, we have to presume, is Unique.
Until we find a planet that orbits a similar sun with a similar moon and similar geology....
Surely the observation of different planets will either prove or disprove this.
Observations have to be done "as is".
Until the full observation is done and comparisons made, ....
Just who are we as a race to decide, or even just one country, or even further, juts one scientist, to decide we need to alter that planet to replicate earth?...
No that isnt a moral question.
This is a scientific point of order.
Things are different until you make them the same.
If all you do is go around making EVERYTHING the same as California, where is the variety of life?..
What is the point?.
I get it that we need to explore space.
But not by nuclear war means....
We need to exude a peaceful existence, taking things by force will put out the wrong message.
To whom?... to anyone who takes part.
And if that does include "Aliens" at some point, they need to meet peaceful people...
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 13, 2015 11:03:23 GMT
The Maths and lab experiments have been done by planetary scientists and physicists, a magnetic filed produced by the motion a hot liquid core will produce the same effect as it has on Earth and prevent the lighter gases from blowing away in the solar wind, without it an dense atmosphere will not last long. Even on the Earth gases such as Hydrogen and Helium are lost to space to some degree, blown by the solar wind but it is just at a rate that is slow enough for out gassing from the rocks to replenish them. Mars core became solid faster than the Earths as it is a smaller rocky planet, the core contains fewer of the radionuclides that keep our core hot enough to be liquid. It is not about the core being heavy it is more about it having a liquid state. At one point The core of Mars was liquid and did produce a magnetic field that is why we see evidence of ancient flowing water on the surface, it had a dense enough atmosphere and surface water. The Earths core could theoretically become solid in the same way at some stage, I do not know though if that will actually happen before the Sun enters its Red Giant phase and consumes it. Most oF the Earths heat is due to the heat of formation and radionuclides, with some caused by Tidal forces from the Moon etc. Yes, our molten iron core is a remnant from Earth's formation, just as Mars' formerly molten core was. The way I understand it, our core is kept molten by a combination of the rotation of Earth itself and the tidal forces of both the Moon's orbit around it and its own eliptical orbit around the Sun. Mars, Venus and Jupiter even exert a little bit of a pull on Earth at times, keeping the core moving and providing the frictional heat to keep it molten and viscous, which produces our magnetic field. |
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