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Post by silverdragon on Dec 26, 2014 13:13:03 GMT
I am trying to get my head around a glaring great hole in Quantum theory, that "matter" can exist in a third state... The state of unknown.
Simplistic theory, it either is, isnt, or exists in a state of unknown, such as Schroedinger's cat.
I cant see how I can understand that..... It either is, isnt, or its science... as in... We Just Dont Know
I cant see how an object can exist in a state of unknown, only to be known once it is observed. Thats quite easy... spin a coin, heads or tails... Yes, I know, I am now entering into the realms of unknown, and I am attracting a discussion... We have delved into the realms of unknown before by the discussion of if a tree.... [If a tree falls and there is no one to hear, does it make a sound...] And yes, that, in its entirety, depends on how you view the description of sound. If sound is something that can be heard, if you cant hear it, it doesnt exist?... How?... The simple presence of a listening device that is totally independent of the sound can alter its true being?.. Just how?..
So here I enter into the realms of Quantum Cats and ask, just how does observing have any effect on an objects ability to be either one state or another?
Did it have a pre-determined state?...
I dont believe that. A Coin that is spinning in a random fashion may not have pre-determined state of heads or tails, and, I know its rare, but there has been a documented instance of it coming down edges. (It landed on one edge and balanced there...)
So, I am asking, in all honesty and scientifically, just how can we have a state of "we dont know" until we resolve the when and where we will know, and arguing that once we did know, it has negated the whole unknown.
I must also argue that Dark matter is just another element on the table that we have not found yet. Or even a whole group of elements that we dont see yet. It is quite possible that things exist outside our visible spectrum.... we have managed to see them. with a little help... So therefore, it is also quite possible that things exist outside our detectable spectrum. Once we work out what they are, we can detect them... Much like having a radio telescope... It has allowed us to see previously un-see-able objects.
Get my drifting here?.. And yes, I am drifting, on the edge of knowledge. The edge of my knowledge... Anyone got a rope?... a sail would be useful... maybe a rudder as well?...
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 26, 2014 14:22:57 GMT
Schroedinger's cat was, ironically, originally intended as an example as to how absurd quantum physics and the whole 'don't know until you look' aspect of it was.
The basic principle isn't that daft, if you flip a coin in the dark it can land heads up or heads down but you can't tell how it landed without looking at at. In the case of various subatomic particles that can be in one of two states something similar is at work - you don't know what state it is in until you look.
The catch is that the act of looking can affect what state the particle is in, most likely because all of the the techniques used to 'look' require putting energy into or taking it out of what was a fairly stable and sealed system - which alters it. Think of it as having a watch in a sealed box and asking 'are the hands luminous?'. Opening the box to take a look allows light to hit the hands, which makes them glow.
Dark Matter refers to matter that doesn't emit energy, and as such can't be directly observed. Black holes are dark matter, as you can't see the black hole itself only the effects it is having - be that warping of light, gravitational effects on objects we can see such as stars or the gas disk around the hole being compressed and releasing energy we can detect.
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Post by the light works on Dec 26, 2014 16:57:24 GMT
so in short the "third state" is: We don't know, and we can't look without interfering with it.
the best comparison I can come up with is that it is very vaguely like checking your tire pressure - a standard tire pressure gauge changes the tire pressure (though only by a very tiny amount) when you use it, because it releases a tiny volume of air from the tire. on the quantum scale, the same thing would happen only a LOT of air could be released.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 26, 2014 23:05:04 GMT
It's more than the third physical state being one of two possible, but just unknown as to which one. The single photon/double slit interference experiment shows that there is a lot more going on here. It may also show that a future event can cause a reaction in a present event. And then there's the whole entanglement thing to try to wrap your head around.
Anyone that claims to understand quantum physics just proves that they don't understand quantum physics.
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Post by the light works on Dec 27, 2014 1:24:36 GMT
It's more than the third physical state being one of two possible, but just unknown as to which one. The single photon/double slit interference experiment shows that there is a lot more going on here. It may also show that a future event can cause a reaction in a present event. And then there's the whole entanglement thing to try to wrap your head around. Anyone that claims to understand quantum physics just proves that they don't understand quantum physics. Quantum physics and I have an understanding - I stay out of its business and it stays out of my business.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 27, 2014 10:38:29 GMT
Before you look, its either heads or tails. So you say looking may change it from heads to tails?...
I dont get that bit. How can the simple action of observing change its state. The coin in the dark is either heads or tails, with about a 1:1,000,000 chance of it being edges..... If the method of observing can change the state, then what you have is not an observation, its a reaction..... So rather that think "quantum" as in think strange, should you not research your method of observance rather that just state your observation changes the substance you observe.
Heh heh heh... you know whats coming.... so by me saying I Dont understand, does that make me the quantum scientist here?.... Naw... I cant accept that, I havnt got a pot of glue, but that doesnt stop me trying does it?....
Dark matter is what we have theorised must exist... I cite the Higgs boson that was until recently unknown, that was at one point "dark", because we couldnt "see" it, where "see" is the act of observing it.
It is at this point invisible to all detection equipment. But so were Aircraft until we discovered Radar?...
I suspect we will re-invent Radar a little and be able to see a lot more?...
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Post by the light works on Dec 27, 2014 11:35:40 GMT
perhaps the best way of stating it is "I know I don't snore because I stayed awake one night and listened."
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 27, 2014 12:21:17 GMT
The problem we have is that all the ways we have to 'look' at something rely on something interacting directly or indirectly with what we want to look at or the thing emitting energy we can 'see'. If you are looking at a building light has no effect - sunlight isn't doing to shift a building six feet backwards or cause it to spin around. But when you get to smaller scales, certainly the subatomic level, such interactions light is quite capable of 'moving' the object.
Think of it rather like looking in a sealed room. If the object you are looking at is a King-sized oak bed opening the door will have no effect. If the object is a feather opening the door could cause a draft that moves the feather.
As I said, 'Dark Matter' is just matter that isn't emitting energy that we can detect or reflecting energy from other sources. Planets are technically 'dark' matter because we can't detect them directly, rather we have to rely on the effect their gravity has on the star they orbit and energy reflecting off the planet itself. A planet away from a star is effectively undetectable, just as many asteroids and comets are undetectable until they get close enough to the sun they start reflecting energy from it. Hell, on the stellar scale humans are dark matter as we don't emit detectable energy*
(*Actually we do emit heat, which is detectable, but not at any great range - hence the used of 'stellar scale' as a point of reference. You are not going to be able to 'see' a human from, say, Mars but could see the effects they have on the planet itself. This is also a line of thinking as to why there could be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe but no clear evidence of it. Prior to the use of radio waves for communication etc there is simply no way to be able to detect such life. And it is suspected that after a while communications systems would 'leak' less and any civilization would therefore become quiet again - and that is just assuming continued use of known technologies such as fiber optic communication lines.)
Most matter in the universe is 'dark' because it doesn't emit energy, or not enough to detect over any distance. For all we know the areas between galaxies may be filled with planets that were knocked out of their orbits, dead stars and black holes.
Aircraft WERE detectable prior to radar, they could be seen and heard. Radar just allowed for much more accurate and continuous detection.
Of course aircraft are a good example as to how observing something can change its behavior. A pilot who is on a bombing mission may well change his flightpath if he overflies an observation post and realizes he's been seen. Not that sub-atomic particles behave that way...as far as we know...Maybe God is shy?
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 2, 2015 18:13:55 GMT
Dark matter, if we're talking the scientific use of the term, does not cover any and all types of matter that we can't directly detect, like black holes, planets orbiting other stars or rogue planets. It's a "material" in its own right.
Black holes (or at least supermassive black holes) emit energy. Quite a lot of it actually. Mostly in the form of x-rays and quasars. No, the black holes themselves are not directly visible, but the matter and energy that they both consume and emit is. Those are some of the things astronomers use to detect them. Dark matter doesn't appear to emit or consume any type of energy at all. At least not any that we're yet capable of detecting.
The notion that we can't directly see planets orbiting other stars is wrong. We can and we have. Yes, the first time we detected a planet orbiting another star was by gravitational wobble of the star itself, but we've since then come to a point where we can detect them directly by toning down the glare of the star by use of filters and physically seeing the planet create a shadow when it passes between the star and us. There are also systems to detect alien planets that rely on audio detection (the star itself emits auditory frequencies that are distorted when a planet passes between it and the auditory equipment - by measuring the distortion, we're not only able to hear that a planet is there, but actually able to know how large the planet is compared to its star). Dark energy doesn't create gravitational wobble, doesn't leave any shadows and can't be detected with auditory equipment.
Rogue planets (planets that have been ejected from their star systems, in case someone didn't know) are more difficult, but again, not impossible to detect. Floating around out there in interstellar space with no nearby stars that can light them up, there's little to no reflection to detect, but it's been hypothezised that an x-ray or hyper sensitive infrared telescope might be able to detect them. Again, dark matter doesn't interact with any type of light and IR and x-rays are just light waves outside the visible spectrum, so again, not something we can use to detect dark matter.
While all of these types of matter might not be immediately visible to us, we'd still at least be able to physically touch them if we were to encounter them while flying through space. You might be able to make out the event horizon of a black hole if you got close enough and if it's actively drawing in matter, you'd at least be able to see the accretion disc (matter "circling the drain"). If you flew into an alien solar system, the planets that orbit that star would be as visible to you as the ones in our own solar system. If you were passing through interstellar space and came across a rogue planet, you would be able to shine a light on it, detect it with radiowaves or see it with IR or x-ray filtered goggles/telescopes. If none of those are available or they don't work, you wouldn't doubt the rogue planet's existance for a second once you got caught in its gavitational field and crashed on its surface. None of these options are available to detect what scientists call dark matter.
The whole reason for coming up with the term dark matter in the first place is that something is pulling all the stars and planets and asteroids and whatnot together to form galaxies and it's not the detectable matter itself. There's no way the visible matter (or even known, invisible matter like black holes) a galaxy consists of can create enough gravity to pull it all together to form the discs and ellipses we see in the universe today and it certainly wouldn't be capable of making the matter at the far reaches of said discs and elipses spin around the galaxy at the same speed as the matter at the center, so there must be something else doing it. Something is keeping all that matter from flying apart and we don't know what that something is.
Since the only thing in the universe we know to have gravitational pull is matter, but there's no matter to be seen to account for the gravity that's clearly there, the term "dark matter" was coined to convey that we THINK it's matter, but we can't see it, so we can't be sure. It could just as well have been named "ronkeydonk" or "habberplast" or just "we don't know matter". It's a term that's been applied because we just don't know what it is. For all we know, it might not even be matter at all.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 2, 2015 19:07:32 GMT
Something of a minor brain fart on my part.
The point should have been that 'dark' matter is that which isn't in and of itself emitting energy we can (right now) detect, but as long as it is something physical can be indirectly detected by interactions with other energy sources or matter. Planets can be detected because they interact with energy being thrown off by the star they orbit, as well as interacting with the star through their gravitational fields. Black holes are similar, in that we are not actually 'seeing' the hole itself but the gravitational interactions it is having on energy and matter near it. The energy we can detect comes from the disk of matter being sucked/pulled into it, rather than the hole itself.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 3, 2015 1:58:09 GMT
The point should have been that 'dark' matter is that which isn't in and of itself emitting energy we can (right now) detect, but as long as it is something physical can be indirectly detected by interactions with other energy sources or matter. As far as I can gather from what you're saying, you still think the term "dark matter" applies to anything and everything in the universe that is not directly observable, but can only be detected via its interactions with other things. If that's the case, you've misunderstood something. The scientific application of the term "dark matter" pertains to one thing and one thing only, namely the as yet unknown "material" that is causing the immense amount of gravity we know is there, but which can't be explained by any known type of matter, including black holes. Astronomers and cosmologists have detected supermassive black holes at the center of most galaxies, but the mass of those black holes combined with the mass of the stars, planets and debris orbiting them doesn't produce enough gravity to hold together a galaxy. Astronomer Fritz Zwicky concluded as much back in the 1930's and coined the term "dark matter" to explain this extra gravity holding galaxies, local groups of galaxies and galactic superclusters together, but he was met with skepticism by his peers. The theory wasn't brough to life again until the 1970's when two other astronomers, Vera Rubin and Kent Ford, set out to map the dynamics of galaxies, using a higly sensitive spectrometer that Kent had developed. What they expected to find was that the outermost stars of a galaxy move slower than the innermost stars, since the mass at the center of the galaxy should have less gravitational impact as you move further away from it, just as it is with the planets in our solar system. The closer a planet is to its parent star, the faster the orbit and the further away, the slower the orbit. What they actually found was that the outermost stars move at the same speed as the innermost stars. If the galaxies were held together only by their visible mass, that would be impossible, since the velocity of the outermost stars would fling them away from the rest of the galaxy. The only conclusion that could be made was that something unseen was creating the gravity that allowed the outermost stars to orbit at those immense speeds without flying out into space. The idea of dark matter got new life and no matter how many astronomers tried to prove Rubin and Kent wrong, they just couldn't. Zwicky had been right all along. Roughly 85% of the mass in the observable universe is invisible and indetectable by any means we have now. There are many theories as to what that mass is, but no one has the answer yet. All we know for certain is that there is something creating a gravitational force of some sort, keeping stars, planets, dust and gas together in galaxies, galaxies together in local groups and local groups together in superclusters. That something is what has been dubbed "dark matter". Sources: Wiki: Dark MatterVera Rubin and Dark MatterFurther reading: Ask Ethan: Are Black Holes Made of Dark Matter? (By cosmologist Ethan Siegel)
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Post by the light works on Jan 3, 2015 2:52:57 GMT
The point should have been that 'dark' matter is that which isn't in and of itself emitting energy we can (right now) detect, but as long as it is something physical can be indirectly detected by interactions with other energy sources or matter. As far as I can gather from what you're saying, you still think the term "dark matter" applies to anything and everything in the universe that is not directly observable, but can only be detected via its interactions with other things. If that's the case, you've misunderstood something. The scientific application of the term "dark matter" pertains to one thing and one thing only, namely the as yet unknown "material" that is causing the immense amount of gravity we know is there, but which can't be explained by any known type of matter, including black holes. Astronomers and cosmologists have detected supermassive black holes at the center of most galaxies, but the mass of those black holes combined with the mass of the stars, planets and debris orbiting them doesn't produce enough gravity to hold together a galaxy. Astronomer Fritz Zwicky concluded as much back in the 1930's and coined the term "dark matter" to explain this extra gravity holding galaxies, local groups of galaxies and galactic superclusters together, but he was met with skepticism by his peers. The theory wasn't brough to life again until the 1970's when two other astronomers, Vera Rubin and Kent Ford, set out to map the dynamics of galaxies, using a higly sensitive spectrometer that Kent had developed. What they expected to find was that the outermost stars of a galaxy move slower than the innermost stars, since the mass at the center of the galaxy should have less gravitational impact as you move further away from it, just as it is with the planets in our solar system. The closer a planet is to its parent star, the faster the orbit and the further away, the slower the orbit. What they actually found was that the outermost stars move at the same speed as the innermost stars. If the galaxies were held together only by their visible mass, that would be impossible, since the velocity of the outermost stars would fling them away from the rest of the galaxy. The only conclusion that could be made was that something unseen was creating the gravity that allowed the outermost stars to orbit at those immense speeds without flying out into space. The idea of dark matter got new life and no matter how many astronomers tried to prove Rubin and Kent wrong, they just couldn't. Zwicky had been right all along. Roughly 85% of the mass in the observable universe is invisible and indetectable by any means we have now. There are many theories as to what that mass is, but no one has the answer yet. All we know for certain is that there is something creating a gravitational force of some sort, keeping stars, planets, dust and gas together in galaxies, galaxies together in local groups and local groups together in superclusters. That something is what has been dubbed "dark matter". Sources: Wiki: Dark MatterVera Rubin and Dark MatterFurther reading: Ask Ethan: Are Black Holes Made of Dark Matter? (By cosmologist Ethan Siegel) of course, the other possibility is that there is a factor they haven't discovered and accounted for yet.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 3, 2015 3:08:28 GMT
And we think we're so smart.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 3, 2015 3:25:49 GMT
As far as I can gather from what you're saying, you still think the term "dark matter" applies to anything and everything in the universe that is not directly observable, but can only be detected via its interactions with other things. If that's the case, you've misunderstood something. The scientific application of the term "dark matter" pertains to one thing and one thing only, namely the as yet unknown "material" that is causing the immense amount of gravity we know is there, but which can't be explained by any known type of matter, including black holes. Astronomers and cosmologists have detected supermassive black holes at the center of most galaxies, but the mass of those black holes combined with the mass of the stars, planets and debris orbiting them doesn't produce enough gravity to hold together a galaxy. Astronomer Fritz Zwicky concluded as much back in the 1930's and coined the term "dark matter" to explain this extra gravity holding galaxies, local groups of galaxies and galactic superclusters together, but he was met with skepticism by his peers. The theory wasn't brough to life again until the 1970's when two other astronomers, Vera Rubin and Kent Ford, set out to map the dynamics of galaxies, using a higly sensitive spectrometer that Kent had developed. What they expected to find was that the outermost stars of a galaxy move slower than the innermost stars, since the mass at the center of the galaxy should have less gravitational impact as you move further away from it, just as it is with the planets in our solar system. The closer a planet is to its parent star, the faster the orbit and the further away, the slower the orbit. What they actually found was that the outermost stars move at the same speed as the innermost stars. If the galaxies were held together only by their visible mass, that would be impossible, since the velocity of the outermost stars would fling them away from the rest of the galaxy. The only conclusion that could be made was that something unseen was creating the gravity that allowed the outermost stars to orbit at those immense speeds without flying out into space. The idea of dark matter got new life and no matter how many astronomers tried to prove Rubin and Kent wrong, they just couldn't. Zwicky had been right all along. Roughly 85% of the mass in the observable universe is invisible and indetectable by any means we have now. There are many theories as to what that mass is, but no one has the answer yet. All we know for certain is that there is something creating a gravitational force of some sort, keeping stars, planets, dust and gas together in galaxies, galaxies together in local groups and local groups together in superclusters. That something is what has been dubbed "dark matter". Sources: Wiki: Dark MatterVera Rubin and Dark MatterFurther reading: Ask Ethan: Are Black Holes Made of Dark Matter? (By cosmologist Ethan Siegel) of course, the other possibility is that there is a factor they haven't discovered and accounted for yet. Absolutely. There are several theories as to what dark matter is and some argue that it's premature to even call it matter, since we have no real evidence that it isn't something else entirely. Theories range everywhere from "it IS regular matter, but we just haven't detected it yet" to "it's gravitational pull from a parallel universe" and pretty much everything in between. The point of my post is that Cyber seems to think (as far as I can tell - I may be misunderstanding him entirely) that the term "dark matter" applies to anything and everything we can't detect by any other means than how it interacts with other things, when in fact it only applies to a specific phenomenon that we can't yet explain.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 3, 2015 3:27:51 GMT
And we think we're so smart. As SD likes to say: We're really only at a point where we're beginning to realize the scope of what we don't know.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 3, 2015 9:46:51 GMT
Theory, and not a good one. We know Planets exist around other stars. We cant see them directly. Does that in fact make them, to us, "dark" matter?....
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Post by the light works on Jan 3, 2015 13:30:41 GMT
Theory, and not a good one. We know Planets exist around other stars. We cant see them directly. Does that in fact make them, to us, "dark" matter?.... according to oziris; no. my understanding of what he says is that "dark matter" is only the stuff that cannot be accounted for by planets, comets, asteroids, and such whether we have managed to spot them with a telescope or not. my understanding of dark matter theory is that they added up the gravitational attraction of the galaxy, and the velocity of the stars orbiting the galactic core, and determined that the stars should be at escape velocity, yet they are not flying off into space. therefore there must be something generating extra gravity, which has not yet been discovered.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 3, 2015 14:19:33 GMT
I think the problem may be that many of us are stuck on the idea that only matter can cause gravity so we gave it the term dark "matter." This gives the impression that there is something really there. Maybe a better term would have been "residue gravity" and not try to connect it to matter at all.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 3, 2015 16:45:08 GMT
Theory, and not a good one. We know Planets exist around other stars. We cant see them directly. Does that in fact make them, to us, "dark" matter?.... While exoplanets and black holes are "matter that is dark to us", they're not the same as the phenomenon that's been given the name "dark matter". TLW and GTCGreg have it exactly right. "Dark matter" is what has been determined as a gravitational force that keeps the stars in their galaxies, keeps galaxies grouped together in local groups and keeps local groups together in superclusters. Something is doing that and it's not any type of matter we've even theoretically been able to determine what is. We know there are exoplanets and we know there are black holes. We've had theories that said they were there and now we have evidence to support those theories. Not so for dark matter. All we know is that there's an unexplained (maybe) gravitational force holding everything together and we've named that "dark matter" for lack of a better term. We don't know that it actually is ANY type of matter or that it's even gravity holding them together in the first place. It could just as well be some other "universal glue" that we have yet to discover, which has nothing at all to do with matter or gravity. As GTCGreg says, what seems to throw most people off on this is the name itself. The fact that we've given it a name that involves the word "matter". I think his suggestion of calling it "residue gravity" instead makes more sense, but as I said, we might find out later on that it actually has nothing to do with gravity at all, so even that term might turn out to be misleading if we ever figure out what it really is. Same thing goes for "dark energy", the force that drives the accelerating expansion of the universe. The term "dark energy" is just a name that's been given to the phenomenon, but we have no clue what it actually is. One working theory is that, just like dark matter, dark energy may be the gravitational pull of a single or even multiple parallel or neighboring universes, pulling on the matter in our universe. Another theory is that spacetime in and of itself possesses the energy to drive expansion. We don't know. The point is, "dark matter" and "dark energy" are just terms that were coined for the sake of being able to name the phenomena in conversation while we try to figure out what they really are.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 4, 2015 12:50:00 GMT
Dark is just a name given to "Unseen" If it has a name, it makes it easier to talk about without understanding it. I therefore propose Dark anything is just "We really just dont know" when in this context. Until we actually turn it light..... we do not know what it is.
Ho Hum....
Can anyone see the irony?....
I am chuckling down to my shoes here, 'cos that realisation has just answered a question in my head that was glaringly obvious, we have come full circle, all the way around CERN even, and returned to our starting point.
"Dark" is the actual true physical form of the original question, it is, in full, the third state that I questioned, its is Quantum Cat............
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