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Post by silverdragon on Mar 7, 2015 7:28:37 GMT
Do you follow Le Mans? Audi have been running diesels in that race since 2006. And winning. Peugeot quickly followed and there are rumors that Porche are developing their own diesel version for the 2015 season. After Audi introduced the R10 TDI in 2006 and dominated in every race of that season, the IMSA had to change the rules mid-season to allow other teams to be able to compete. Teams running gasoline powered cars were allowed to strip additional weight off their cars and install a larger fuel tank, because they couldn't keep up. And it wasn't just about fuel efficiency either. Audi set lap records during qualifications, proving that the diesel didn't just get better fuel efficiency than gasoline (although that played a huge part in the 12+ hour indurance races, which was actually Audi's reason for trying it out in the first place), but could compete on speed as well, having been measured at up to 211 mph down a straight in one race, which was faster than any other car that season. After the success of the R10 TDI, Audi entered the R15 TDI, which also did extremely well and last year they entered a diesel hybrid, the R18 E-Tron Quattro, so development continues. So, which is faster, petrol/gasoline or diesel? Depends on who built the car. Exactly.... Porshe, they have problems, 'cos they are still trying to air-cool a diesel......  Your whole post is the exact reason I am putting this one up for test, because things Have changed. I loved the mid season scramble to allow other teams to break the rules... no one thought they would be that fast, they all laughed, and when they started winning "Hey that isnt fair"....... |
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 7, 2015 10:14:16 GMT
I can't exactly say that I follow Le Mans. Most of what I wrote, I had to look up. I just remembered that Audi did the diesel thing with great success. As a Dane, you kind of had to be living under a rock to not get SOME news about Le Mans - and especially the Audi team - up until last year. When you live in a country of only 6 million people and one of those 6 million is internationally hailed as "The King of Le Mans" after winning the 24 hour indurance race for the 9th time, you can't NOT take notice  The part I did follow a little at one point was the Audi R&D process. I remember seeing an interview that Tom Kristensen (the aforementioned "King of Le Mans" for those who don't know him) did for Danish TV with some of the R&D folks at Audi's test facility. The chief engineer told him that the main reason they wanted to focus more on the touring car stuff than on F1 type races was that the rules for touring cars are much looser than they are in F1, so there was a lot more potential for groundbreaking R&D. Sure, there are weight ratios for the different classes and a lot of other guidelines, but there's still some wiggleroom - like what types of fuel you can use - and the IMSA have no interest in removing that wiggleroom, because it brings new things to the sport all the time. That's one reason they like touring cars better than F1, but the conversion of new technology from touring car to production car isn't as extensive as it would be from F1 to production car, so that's also a huge factor for them. That's one of Audi's main goals with even being part of ANY racing. They want the R&D from that to go into making better, safer, more efficient production cars. I think that attitude deserves some respect in its own right. |
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 8, 2015 6:42:49 GMT
And in that you have a point.
We as a family are heavily F1, I as a person dont just do F1, I also watch as much BTCC touring car as I can, because its my own roots, and any other form, including the Formula E, because they are happier to bring on board any kind of driver safety, and innovations....
F1 had stability control, then they banned it, as being an unfair advantage.....
Bleh?... what now?...
Other forms of racing use it, and its welcome.
F1 is all about the race, and being a competition, and now and again they change the rules to outlaw advantages.
How can it still be the forefront of research and development?
BTCC WRC LeMans, the DTM German touring cars, STCC Sweden, Canada gets in on the act, south Americans are good, and Australia who had to go V8, (The americans do that as well) plus the rest of europe has others, its popular around most of the world?...
They ALL accept various kinds of racing differences, the BTCC famously welcomed Gas burners.... not gas as the yanks call petrol, but actual LPG gas, although they were heavily weighted down as to begin with the light engines and power production they were off on the B of Bang...
BTCC also does a three race meet, 1st race is a qualified start, 2nd race is reverse grid, third race is a lottery pick as to who starts first.
It can be quite fun to watch....
Personally, if you have a couple of grand to spare, you can get out there on the learners permit (After you get the licence) and have a good weekend at grass roots. I loved it. The beginners road going series (But you must have roll cage Harness HARMS and skid lid etc...) is not serious enough to be that dangerous...
Its all about taking part.
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Post by the light works on Mar 8, 2015 15:04:21 GMT
And in that you have a point. We as a family are heavily F1, I as a person dont just do F1, I also watch as much BTCC touring car as I can, because its my own roots, and any other form, including the Formula E, because they are happier to bring on board any kind of driver safety, and innovations.... F1 had stability control, then they banned it, as being an unfair advantage..... Bleh?... what now?... Other forms of racing use it, and its welcome. F1 is all about the race, and being a competition, and now and again they change the rules to outlaw advantages. How can it still be the forefront of research and development? BTCC WRC LeMans, the DTM German touring cars, STCC Sweden, Canada gets in on the act, south Americans are good, and Australia who had to go V8, (The americans do that as well) plus the rest of europe has others, its popular around most of the world?... They ALL accept various kinds of racing differences, the BTCC famously welcomed Gas burners.... not gas as the yanks call petrol, but actual LPG gas, although they were heavily weighted down as to begin with the light engines and power production they were off on the B of Bang... BTCC also does a three race meet, 1st race is a qualified start, 2nd race is reverse grid, third race is a lottery pick as to who starts first. It can be quite fun to watch.... Personally, if you have a couple of grand to spare, you can get out there on the learners permit (After you get the licence) and have a good weekend at grass roots. I loved it. The beginners road going series (But you must have roll cage Harness HARMS and skid lid etc...) is not serious enough to be that dangerous... Its all about taking part. I see room in motorsports for all degrees of nitpickiness. whether a driver wants a run what you brung race, or wants to be in a race where all the cars are exactly the same, barring paint and decals, there might as well be a racing organization available for that. some people are all about who is the best driver, and some people are all about who can put together the best car. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 8, 2015 17:18:40 GMT
I see room in motorsports for all degrees of nitpickiness. whether a driver wants a run what you brung race, or wants to be in a race where all the cars are exactly the same, barring paint and decals, there might as well be a racing organization available for that. some people are all about who is the best driver, and some people are all about who can put together the best car. That's why I pretty much lost interest in NASCAR. A team's lawyers is just as important as a team's driver. Almost as bad as American football. I'd love to see a "free for all" organization. You bring what you have and race it. First one across the finish line wins. No limits. Well, maybe have one for cars and one for bikes, but other than that, anything goes. |
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 8, 2015 20:21:20 GMT
I see room in motorsports for all degrees of nitpickiness. whether a driver wants a run what you brung race, or wants to be in a race where all the cars are exactly the same, barring paint and decals, there might as well be a racing organization available for that. some people are all about who is the best driver, and some people are all about who can put together the best car. That's why I pretty much lost interest in NASCAR. A team's lawyers is just as important as a team's driver. Almost as bad as American football. I'd love to see a "free for all" organization. You bring what you have and race it. First one across the finish line wins. No limits. Well, maybe have one for cars and one for bikes, but other than that, anything goes. The problem with that setup is that it would quickly become a case of the one with the most money wins every time. That's one of the things I really like about many American team sports, such as football, as opposed to European sports. Your team is a franchise in a larger organization and the money for player salaries is distributed evenly so every team has the same amount at the start of each season. From there, it's all about how wisely you choose to spend that money. It becomes more about leadership and team chemistry than salaries. You can choose to throw it all at a great quarterback or linebacker and hope he can carry an otherwise weak team, or you can choose to use it on a broader talent pool. Either way, you can't just buy your way to success like the biggest European soccer teams do. As a reference, FC Barcelona, one of the richest (and most winning) soccer clubs in the world, in the 2014-15 season have paid their 26 players a combined salary of around $416 mio. In comparison, the 2014-15 NFL salary cap for ALL 32 TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE was $133 mio. If memory serves me right, that needs to pay a minimum of 47 players and a maximum of 55, plus whatever you have on your practice squad. The kicker here (get it? Football - soccer - kicker?  ) is that ALL 32 teams in the NFL actually HAD $133 mio. to work with at the start of the season, while very few soccer teams in the world have $416 mio. to throw at their players. In other words, FC Barcelona can buy a winning team that no one else in the world can come close to. The Jacksonville Jaguars don't have that option any more than any of the 31 other teams in the NFL do, because they have the exact same amount of money to pay their players with as everyone else. |
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 8, 2015 21:53:04 GMT
That's why I pretty much lost interest in NASCAR. A team's lawyers is just as important as a team's driver. Almost as bad as American football. I'd love to see a "free for all" organization. You bring what you have and race it. First one across the finish line wins. No limits. Well, maybe have one for cars and one for bikes, but other than that, anything goes. The problem with that setup is that it would quickly become a case of the one with the most money wins every time. That's one of the things I really like about many American team sports, such as football, as opposed to European sports. Your team is a franchise in a larger organization and the money for player salaries is distributed evenly so every team has the same amount at the start of each season. From there, it's all about how wisely you choose to spend that money. It becomes more about leadership and team chemistry than salaries. You can choose to throw it all at a great quarterback or linebacker and hope he can carry an otherwise weak team, or you can choose to use it on a broader talent pool. Either way, you can't just buy your way to success like the biggest European soccer teams do. As a reference, FC Barcelona, one of the richest (and most winning) soccer clubs in the world, in the 2014-15 season have paid their 26 players a combined salary of around $416 mio. In comparison, the 2014-15 NFL salary cap for ALL 32 TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE was $133 mio. If memory serves me right, that needs to pay a minimum of 47 players and a maximum of 55, plus whatever you have on your practice squad. The kicker here (get it? Football - soccer - kicker? ) is that ALL 32 teams in the NFL actually HAD $133 mio. to work with at the start of the season, while very few soccer teams in the world have $416 mio. to throw at their players. In other words, FC Barcelona can buy a winning team that no one else in the world can come close to. The Jacksonville Jaguars don't have that option any more than any of the 31 other teams in the NFL do, because they have the exact same amount of money to pay their players with as everyone else. That's one of the things I like about the Rugby Union Premiership, they have a salary cap for the teams. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 8, 2015 22:09:20 GMT
That's why I pretty much lost interest in NASCAR. A team's lawyers is just as important as a team's driver. Almost as bad as American football. I'd love to see a "free for all" organization. You bring what you have and race it. First one across the finish line wins. No limits. Well, maybe have one for cars and one for bikes, but other than that, anything goes. The problem with that setup is that it would quickly become a case of the one with the most money wins every time. OK, let's stick with racing. The one with the best technology, mechanics, pit crew and driver will win. If that takes money, so be it. Or maybe the one with the best innovation. And that may not necessarily take the most money. |
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 9, 2015 0:43:50 GMT
The problem with that setup is that it would quickly become a case of the one with the most money wins every time. OK, let's stick with racing. The one with the best technology, mechanics, pit crew and driver will win. If that takes money, so be it. Or maybe the one with the best innovation. And that may not necessarily take the most money. Maybe not always, but it's a pretty sure bet that it'll be a huge factor 99 out of 100 times. And how fun is it to be a part of - as a participant or a spectator - if the same team always wins, just because they have the money to get the best tech, the best drivers, the best mechanics and the best pit crew? Hell, if money's going to decide the whole thing 99% of the time, why not just buy the trophy and get it over with? |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 9, 2015 1:09:07 GMT
OK, let's stick with racing. The one with the best technology, mechanics, pit crew and driver will win. If that takes money, so be it. Or maybe the one with the best innovation. And that may not necessarily take the most money. Maybe not always, but it's a pretty sure bet that it'll be a huge factor 99 out of 100 times. And how fun is it to be a part of - as a participant or a spectator - if the same team always wins, just because they have the money to get the best tech, the best drivers, the best mechanics and the best pit crew? Hell, if money's going to decide the whole thing 99% of the time, why not just buy the trophy and get it over with? To advance the sport. If it takes money to invent new technologies then that's what it takes. Everyone will benefit from it in the long run. Even those that are not really interested in racing. This isn't Junk Yard Wars. Take off all limits and see what they can come up with. |
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Post by the light works on Mar 9, 2015 1:22:17 GMT
besides which it would be pretty much self-regulating. unless you have, say, Warren Buffett deciding to make a hobby of winning trophies, the spending is going to be limited by the ability to draw sponsors, and the ability to draw sponsors will be limited by the audience. if it ain't interesting, you won't get the viewers. - thus I can see an unlimited class race being a viable concept.
otherwise, I have seen a lot of lower level competitions that give each team a budget limit. they can do whatever they want inside that limit.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 9, 2015 6:00:56 GMT
As a Co-Conspirator and therefore in at the inception and invention, when we raced Bikes, we started something called the Chicken Chase. You start with a 50cc engine, and it MUST pass scrutineers, so its safe on the track... It must be normally aspirated, so no blowers or suckers. After that the word is your oyster.... This was the bike of choice for many to start with.  Honda 50cc "Cub", reliable, went round the clock more times than mickeys right hand, 50cc, single pot four stroke. I knew it well, as it was the first bike I ever owned legally.... And learn't on, and passed my original bike license on... So a strip down and remove the unnecessary bits, change jets, swap carb for bigger one, fiddle a lot, and get rid of the mud guards and the rest for streamlining. The things could barely manage to break speed limits, the track was awash with fighting for places, corners were often three abreast, footpegs that hadn't been shortened sparked in the dusk of early evening, people fell off, but at 30mph, you just get up get back on and get back in the race... often the person who won was the one who fell off the least number of times, but EVERYONE fell off at least once... it wasnt a true race if you didnt?... Laugh?... It was the funniest race of the whole weekend. The one everyone stopped what they were doing to either take part or watch... It got so we had to start having heats because there were so many taking part.... Nothing was limited except the 50cc engine size and safety issues.  This is a modern take on what we tried to aspire to, a Cafe racer, small light nimble and corners on a halfpenny. But the race was a huge success.... |
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Post by the light works on Mar 9, 2015 14:33:27 GMT
over here, we have pocketbike racing which is roughly similar.  AKA Dad's playing on junior's bike. |
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Post by c64 on Jun 27, 2015 23:06:58 GMT
Exactly.... Porshe, they have problems, 'cos they are still trying to air-cool a diesel...... No problem at all. The most famous truck and tractor diesel engines were all air cooled until turbo charged engines became common for vehicles.  |
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Post by c64 on Jun 27, 2015 23:11:18 GMT
An ordinary diesel engine requires a greater mass. The engine has more weight per HP and much more moving masses. Especially changing the RPM requires much more energy and causes much more stress on the transmission and wheels while switching gears.
It's not a matter of strength, its a matter of agility.
The most modern high pressure direct injection turbo charged diesel engines are almost as agile as a gasoline engine so the difference becomes more and more negligible.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 28, 2015 8:43:34 GMT
Which one?.. the most famous air cooled diesel that is.
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Post by c64 on Jun 28, 2015 12:58:58 GMT
Which one?.. the most famous air cooled diesel that is. E.g. the Deutz Diesel engines but there were other manufacturers which made air cooled diesel engines. Air cooled internal combustion engines must be very crude and tolerance resistant or they would get stuck by the very uneven cooling by air on the outer surface only. While this lowers efficiency, it boosts reliability dramatically. So almost all tractors famous "to last forever" have air cooled engines. |
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) is that ALL 32 teams in the NFL actually HAD $133 mio. to work with at the start of the season, while very few soccer teams in the world have $416 mio. to throw at their players. In other words, FC Barcelona can buy a winning team that no one else in the world can come close to. The Jacksonville Jaguars don't have that option any more than any of the 31 other teams in the NFL do, because they have the exact same amount of money to pay their players with as everyone else.
