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Post by the light works on Jun 28, 2015 14:26:52 GMT
other way around, actually - they originally added lead to keep the valves from sticking, and then learned to make hardened valves. - but they left the lead in because they found it was a cheap way to increase the octane. older engines used to have to have regular valve and ring jobs to keep them running. Actually, that's a myth. During WW-1, they had to increase the power and decrease the weight of engines for airplanes. Gas engines were highly inefficient and failed after a few hours of operation because they choked due to all the residues from the combustion of gasoline. To make an engine last to be able to be used in airplanes, pure gasoline was needed but it was impossible to make it in large quantities. So there were two kinds of fuel, very expensive aerplane fuel and normal fuel. And even the expensive airplane fuel was real bad, it lacked octane. They couldn't make any engines with a reasonable compression to create much power. This was why Rudolf Diesel was looking for a way to make a high pressure engine and figured that this is impossible with gasoline so he had to look for alternative kinds of fuels and a different way to make use of it in an engine. The result was the diesel engine but back then it was way too slow and bulky for airplanes. So during the war they came up with Tetraethyllead which boosts octane in order to be able to increase compression to make smaller, lighter engines with more power. The effect of "microwelds" on the valves which makes the surface rough and cause grinding, pure lead and other materials could have been added. Tetraethyllead was originally used for octane only and the side effect was preventing microwelds. Actually Tetraethyllead has a serious side effect, it causes "spark plug fouling" but it was the only way to build engines with higher performance badly needed for WW-1 airplanes. Here is what Tetraethyllead does: If the compression ratio of an engine is too high, the fuel/air mixture spontaneously ignites due to breakups of the fuel. Tetraethyllead breaks up first binding the fuel radicals so the fuel can't ignite on its own in a low-temperature reaction. When Tetraethyllead is broken up, lead and lead-oxyde is a leftover which is actually bad for the engine. To prevent lead building up inside the engine, dibromoethane and dichloroethane is added to the fuel to get rid of the lead. The leftover lead is what is good for the valves. Leaded gasoline doesn't help for the piston rings - it is actually bad for them since it grouts them into place but they need to be able to move freely to prevent excessive grinding with the cylinder walls. And the reason old plain gasoline cars need a valve job is because all the "junk" in the gasoline (mainly sulphur but also tar and other stuff) coke the valves. Lead won't do anything about that, the solution was a much more sophisticated refinery process to make gasoline much more pure. If Tetraethyllead would be good for an engine, ask yourself why there never was any leaded Diesel fuel. The answer is simple, lead is actually bad for an engine, a Diesel engine doesn't need an octane boost and the only favour it does to the valve isn't necessary by using better valves in the first place. Using modern fuel in those old engines built before lead was added to all kinds of gasoline and not just for high-performing airplane engines is no problem. They don't need lead and with the modern, clean burning fuel they don't need the classic valve and piston ring jobs either. well, what do I know, I was trained by the gasoline industry, and have mechanics and old car buffs in my family. this must be a case of parallel development trains, because we didn't start using diesel until much later than you did - which had its disadvantages. it was much harder for us to burn your tanks than it was for you to burn our tanks. on the other hand, the only fuel problems we had were getting enough to where it was needed. |
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Post by c64 on Jun 28, 2015 16:47:29 GMT
this must be a case of parallel development trains, because we didn't start using diesel until much later than you did - which had its disadvantages. it was much harder for us to burn your tanks than it was for you to burn our tanks. on the other hand, the only fuel problems we had were getting enough to where it was needed. What do you think the oil industry likes to tell everybody: 1) We poison everything because we like to save money in production. or 2) Unfortunately we must do some pollution for your convenience to make your car last a lot longer. What do you think? And in the US, Diesel engines were used for motor boats and submarines during the war. If lead would have made them more reliable, why do you think they didn't make use of this? Lead isn't good for the engine. The only benefit it has is to simplify refinery production and it can prevent microwelds on valve shafts. But there are many alternatives to prevent microvelds and most of them much more environmentally friendly and not bad for the rest of the engine. If you have an old engine which need the lead, convert it. It's not that hard to do nor expensive. Converting keeps the engine healthy for a much longer time. While the lead or the lead free substitute prevents microwelds, it can't prevent the wear. The engine starts to burn oil very early when the shaft holes are worn. Hardened shaft holes last longer until worn and so do the better valves. The reason why engines depend on the lead is that the car manufacturer could save a few bucks during production and was able to get away with it when lead was in the gas. They were able to make diesel engines without problems, so why should they have been unable to make proper gasoline engines? |
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Post by the light works on Jun 28, 2015 21:56:35 GMT
this must be a case of parallel development trains, because we didn't start using diesel until much later than you did - which had its disadvantages. it was much harder for us to burn your tanks than it was for you to burn our tanks. on the other hand, the only fuel problems we had were getting enough to where it was needed. What do you think the oil industry likes to tell everybody: 1) We poison everything because we like to save money in production. or 2) Unfortunately we must do some pollution for your convenience to make your car last a lot longer. What do you think? And in the US, Diesel engines were used for motor boats and submarines during the war. If lead would have made them more reliable, why do you think they didn't make use of this? Lead isn't good for the engine. The only benefit it has is to simplify refinery production and it can prevent microwelds on valve shafts. But there are many alternatives to prevent microvelds and most of them much more environmentally friendly and not bad for the rest of the engine. If you have an old engine which need the lead, convert it. It's not that hard to do nor expensive. Converting keeps the engine healthy for a much longer time. While the lead or the lead free substitute prevents microwelds, it can't prevent the wear. The engine starts to burn oil very early when the shaft holes are worn. Hardened shaft holes last longer until worn and so do the better valves. The reason why engines depend on the lead is that the car manufacturer could save a few bucks during production and was able to get away with it when lead was in the gas. They were able to make diesel engines without problems, so why should they have been unable to make proper gasoline engines? our big boats ran diesel, our PT boats ran 100 octane AVgas. - basically, during WWII, only things that ran at the same pace all day were considered candidates for diesel engines because they were still big heavy lumbering things. however a GM history page from 1921 does reveal that the first discovery about tetraethyl lead in the US was related to raising the octane of gasoline for high compression engines. - and it was discovered a bit later that it also stopped the valves from burning out. the other cheap alternative for raising octane was ethanol, but GM couldn't patent that. www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-discover-that-leaded-gas-reduces-knock-in-auto-enginesnot sure what time frame hardened valves were developed in, but I know my parade engine has been upgraded, and it became mandatory to have them in all engines since the 70s. |
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Post by c64 on Jun 29, 2015 15:54:23 GMT
What do you think the oil industry likes to tell everybody: 1) We poison everything because we like to save money in production. or 2) Unfortunately we must do some pollution for your convenience to make your car last a lot longer. What do you think? And in the US, Diesel engines were used for motor boats and submarines during the war. If lead would have made them more reliable, why do you think they didn't make use of this? Lead isn't good for the engine. The only benefit it has is to simplify refinery production and it can prevent microwelds on valve shafts. But there are many alternatives to prevent microvelds and most of them much more environmentally friendly and not bad for the rest of the engine. If you have an old engine which need the lead, convert it. It's not that hard to do nor expensive. Converting keeps the engine healthy for a much longer time. While the lead or the lead free substitute prevents microwelds, it can't prevent the wear. The engine starts to burn oil very early when the shaft holes are worn. Hardened shaft holes last longer until worn and so do the better valves. The reason why engines depend on the lead is that the car manufacturer could save a few bucks during production and was able to get away with it when lead was in the gas. They were able to make diesel engines without problems, so why should they have been unable to make proper gasoline engines? our big boats ran diesel, our PT boats ran 100 octane AVgas. - basically, during WWII, only things that ran at the same pace all day were considered candidates for diesel engines because they were still big heavy lumbering things. however a GM history page from 1921 does reveal that the first discovery about tetraethyl lead in the US was related to raising the octane of gasoline for high compression engines. - and it was discovered a bit later that it also stopped the valves from burning out. the other cheap alternative for raising octane was ethanol, but GM couldn't patent that. www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-discover-that-leaded-gas-reduces-knock-in-auto-enginesnot sure what time frame hardened valves were developed in, but I know my parade engine has been upgraded, and it became mandatory to have them in all engines since the 70s. Expensive valves and shafts with high quality were available before cars were invented. Also all Diesel engines must have them. The gas car engine evolved from "gas light" powered stationary engines and so did the Diesel engine. Mass producing alcohol is expensive so lead was the cheapest method to boost octane and when gasoline was leaded, the car industry found out that they could get away with saving some production costs for (leaded) gas engines. |
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Post by the light works on Jun 30, 2015 4:33:28 GMT
our big boats ran diesel, our PT boats ran 100 octane AVgas. - basically, during WWII, only things that ran at the same pace all day were considered candidates for diesel engines because they were still big heavy lumbering things. however a GM history page from 1921 does reveal that the first discovery about tetraethyl lead in the US was related to raising the octane of gasoline for high compression engines. - and it was discovered a bit later that it also stopped the valves from burning out. the other cheap alternative for raising octane was ethanol, but GM couldn't patent that. www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gm-engineers-discover-that-leaded-gas-reduces-knock-in-auto-enginesnot sure what time frame hardened valves were developed in, but I know my parade engine has been upgraded, and it became mandatory to have them in all engines since the 70s. Expensive valves and shafts with high quality were available before cars were invented. Also all Diesel engines must have them. The gas car engine evolved from "gas light" powered stationary engines and so did the Diesel engine. Mass producing alcohol is expensive so lead was the cheapest method to boost octane and when gasoline was leaded, the car industry found out that they could get away with saving some production costs for (leaded) gas engines. our diesels are lubricated with sulfur in the diesel - except they have had to redesign to take that out because it clogs the exhaust filters. |
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Post by c64 on Jun 30, 2015 20:22:10 GMT
Expensive valves and shafts with high quality were available before cars were invented. Also all Diesel engines must have them. The gas car engine evolved from "gas light" powered stationary engines and so did the Diesel engine. Mass producing alcohol is expensive so lead was the cheapest method to boost octane and when gasoline was leaded, the car industry found out that they could get away with saving some production costs for (leaded) gas engines. our diesels are lubricated with sulfur in the diesel - except they have had to redesign to take that out because it clogs the exhaust filters. Interesting. Sulphur in fuels is banned in Europe. When exhaust gasses mix with rain, sulphuric acid is created. Acid rain used to be a great problem until they had started to remove sulphur in the early 80s and perfected removing sulphur in the late 90s. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 1, 2015 0:29:22 GMT
our diesels are lubricated with sulfur in the diesel - except they have had to redesign to take that out because it clogs the exhaust filters. Interesting. Sulphur in fuels is banned in Europe. When exhaust gasses mix with rain, sulphuric acid is created. Acid rain used to be a great problem until they had started to remove sulphur in the early 80s and perfected removing sulphur in the late 90s. well, the current grade approved for highway use is ultra low sulfur diesel. they've been weaning it down for years. |
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Post by c64 on Jul 4, 2015 20:57:23 GMT
Interesting. Sulphur in fuels is banned in Europe. When exhaust gasses mix with rain, sulphuric acid is created. Acid rain used to be a great problem until they had started to remove sulphur in the early 80s and perfected removing sulphur in the late 90s. well, the current grade approved for highway use is ultra low sulfur diesel. they've been weaning it down for years. And it still works fine with vintage diesels. What the lead prevents is "microwelds". This can be prevented easily by using metal alloys. It is a myth that lead lubricates the valve shafts. This is a different problem and not solved by lead. My dad once owned a furniture delivery truck and he picked the stronger Austin engine. He had learned to change the valves by himself since his truck just ate a lot of them. Those valves were of low quality since they were made when gas came with lead. One day he looked at various valves and picked valves from a Renault since they simply looked the same. Those had lasted many years until he sold the truck since he picked valves for unleaded gas by coincident. For the valve shafts, carbon is a fine lubricant as well but also not good for the engine. That's why the engine turns its oil black. The main task of the oil is to remove carbon deposits. In old engines, there is a rather wide gap between the valve shafts and the cylinder bore. The oil which flows over the top of the cylinder head works its way through the valve shaft bore while the engine is running to remove lead and carbon deposits. This had only changed about 25 years ago. "Classic" engines burn a lot of oil which is intended. Modern engines use tight valve shafts and burn very little oil through the valves. In modern cars, you never need to refill any oil. This is a great problem since people are not used to check the oil any more and when something is wrong or they push back the inspections (oil change), the car can run out of oil. More modern cars now all have sensors and refuse to start the engine if the oil is down past minimum. The classic engine I drive consumes 150ml per 1000km when new or rebuilt and around 400ml when with by 300,000km on it. So you need to refill some oil every time you used up a full tank of gas or it could run low. I remember when almost all gas stations used to have service and they always checked the oil when you ordered to top up the tank. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 5, 2015 5:10:36 GMT
well, the current grade approved for highway use is ultra low sulfur diesel. they've been weaning it down for years. And it still works fine with vintage diesels. What the lead prevents is "microwelds". This can be prevented easily by using metal alloys. It is a myth that lead lubricates the valve shafts. This is a different problem and not solved by lead. My dad once owned a furniture delivery truck and he picked the stronger Austin engine. He had learned to change the valves by himself since his truck just ate a lot of them. Those valves were of low quality since they were made when gas came with lead. One day he looked at various valves and picked valves from a Renault since they simply looked the same. Those had lasted many years until he sold the truck since he picked valves for unleaded gas by coincident. For the valve shafts, carbon is a fine lubricant as well but also not good for the engine. That's why the engine turns its oil black. The main task of the oil is to remove carbon deposits. In old engines, there is a rather wide gap between the valve shafts and the cylinder bore. The oil which flows over the top of the cylinder head works its way through the valve shaft bore while the engine is running to remove lead and carbon deposits. This had only changed about 25 years ago. "Classic" engines burn a lot of oil which is intended. Modern engines use tight valve shafts and burn very little oil through the valves. In modern cars, you never need to refill any oil. This is a great problem since people are not used to check the oil any more and when something is wrong or they push back the inspections (oil change), the car can run out of oil. More modern cars now all have sensors and refuse to start the engine if the oil is down past minimum. The classic engine I drive consumes 150ml per 1000km when new or rebuilt and around 400ml when with by 300,000km on it. So you need to refill some oil every time you used up a full tank of gas or it could run low. I remember when almost all gas stations used to have service and they always checked the oil when you ordered to top up the tank. and what year is your car? here, since my dad bought his first new car in 1969, it was considered bad if you burned more than a quart of oil between oil changes. in fact, once he stopped using bad oil, he never burned oil. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 5, 2015 9:07:48 GMT
Diesel lumps are heavy, reliable, low maintenance, they chug.
You dont get "performance" out of diesel, you get power, in a limited rev range, but its LOTS of power.
It used to be economical as well.
Their power is "industrial", and traditional.
These days engine evolve-ment means diesel in a car can now almost match Petrol for performance, and now, yes, thinking octane may be useful.
But they already solved that problem before it was a problem.
Diesel is not like any other petroleum product, it is just diesel.
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Post by the light works on Jul 5, 2015 14:52:41 GMT
Diesel lumps are heavy, reliable, low maintenance, they chug. You dont get "performance" out of diesel, you get power, in a limited rev range, but its LOTS of power. It used to be economical as well. Their power is "industrial", and traditional. These days engine evolve-ment means diesel in a car can now almost match Petrol for performance, and now, yes, thinking octane may be useful. But they already solved that problem before it was a problem. Diesel is not like any other petroleum product, it is just diesel. I saw a beautiful tractor at the parade yesterday. pistons the size of coffee cans, and it made a lovely "thud whump" sound running. |
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Post by c64 on Jul 5, 2015 17:47:01 GMT
And it still works fine with vintage diesels. What the lead prevents is "microwelds". This can be prevented easily by using metal alloys. It is a myth that lead lubricates the valve shafts. This is a different problem and not solved by lead. My dad once owned a furniture delivery truck and he picked the stronger Austin engine. He had learned to change the valves by himself since his truck just ate a lot of them. Those valves were of low quality since they were made when gas came with lead. One day he looked at various valves and picked valves from a Renault since they simply looked the same. Those had lasted many years until he sold the truck since he picked valves for unleaded gas by coincident. For the valve shafts, carbon is a fine lubricant as well but also not good for the engine. That's why the engine turns its oil black. The main task of the oil is to remove carbon deposits. In old engines, there is a rather wide gap between the valve shafts and the cylinder bore. The oil which flows over the top of the cylinder head works its way through the valve shaft bore while the engine is running to remove lead and carbon deposits. This had only changed about 25 years ago. "Classic" engines burn a lot of oil which is intended. Modern engines use tight valve shafts and burn very little oil through the valves. In modern cars, you never need to refill any oil. This is a great problem since people are not used to check the oil any more and when something is wrong or they push back the inspections (oil change), the car can run out of oil. More modern cars now all have sensors and refuse to start the engine if the oil is down past minimum. The classic engine I drive consumes 150ml per 1000km when new or rebuilt and around 400ml when with by 300,000km on it. So you need to refill some oil every time you used up a full tank of gas or it could run low. I remember when almost all gas stations used to have service and they always checked the oil when you ordered to top up the tank. and what year is your car? here, since my dad bought his first new car in 1969, it was considered bad if you burned more than a quart of oil between oil changes. in fact, once he stopped using bad oil, he never burned oil. My current car was built in 1990 but is using the most classic engine version available. 150ml/1000km translates to less than 1.5 liter of oil between regular oil changes. You change either once a year or every 10,000km, whatever comes first. True, this is an awful lot of oil especially for a car with catalytic converter, but it's normal for this particular engine. It is built to last forever so it's rather crude but still has excellent performance since it is designed to operate between 1000 and 6500 RPM. This engine is famous to have two major bad habits: 1) Occasionally puffing a blue cloud for no reason 2) Boiling 1/2 liter of water to steam for no obvious reason, at random times and always exactly 1/2 liter. Most people who think that 90HP is good enough like that engine since it has character. |
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Post by c64 on Jul 5, 2015 18:36:41 GMT
I saw a beautiful tractor at the parade yesterday. pistons the size of coffee cans, and it made a lovely "thud whump" sound running. I owned a small 1-piston Deutz tractor. It characteristic "klütt" noise must be the reason why "Klütter" is the synonym for (farming) tractor in my area. 1336ccm, 9HP Here's a Lanz Bulldog, 10 liter displacement, 35HP: |
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Post by the light works on Jul 5, 2015 21:32:46 GMT
and what year is your car? here, since my dad bought his first new car in 1969, it was considered bad if you burned more than a quart of oil between oil changes. in fact, once he stopped using bad oil, he never burned oil. My current car was built in 1990 but is using the most classic engine version available. 150ml/1000km translates to less than 1.5 liter of oil between regular oil changes. You change either once a year or every 10,000km, whatever comes first. True, this is an awful lot of oil especially for a car with catalytic converter, but it's normal for this particular engine. It is built to last forever so it's rather crude but still has excellent performance since it is designed to operate between 1000 and 6500 RPM. This engine is famous to have two major bad habits: 1) Occasionally puffing a blue cloud for no reason 2) Boiling 1/2 liter of water to steam for no obvious reason, at random times and always exactly 1/2 liter. Most people who think that 90HP is good enough like that engine since it has character. It's an audi engine isn't it? my brother had a cheap porsche with an audi engine and it had a lot of blow-by, too. |
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Post by c64 on Jul 5, 2015 22:16:43 GMT
My current car was built in 1990 but is using the most classic engine version available. 150ml/1000km translates to less than 1.5 liter of oil between regular oil changes. You change either once a year or every 10,000km, whatever comes first. True, this is an awful lot of oil especially for a car with catalytic converter, but it's normal for this particular engine. It is built to last forever so it's rather crude but still has excellent performance since it is designed to operate between 1000 and 6500 RPM. This engine is famous to have two major bad habits: 1) Occasionally puffing a blue cloud for no reason 2) Boiling 1/2 liter of water to steam for no obvious reason, at random times and always exactly 1/2 liter. Most people who think that 90HP is good enough like that engine since it has character. It's an audi engine isn't it? my brother had a cheap porsche with an audi engine and it had a lot of blow-by, too. No, this one is VW and sold in "reasonably priced cars" only. Air cooled engines are designed very crude to tolerate uneven cooling and parts running very hot. Those have to burn lots of oil to prevent seizures of the valves and/or pistons. There is a reason why air cooled cars were advertised as "Never boiling", they keep running until something melts. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2015 1:17:52 GMT
It's an audi engine isn't it? my brother had a cheap porsche with an audi engine and it had a lot of blow-by, too. No, this one is VW and sold in "reasonably priced cars" only. Air cooled engines are designed very crude to tolerate uneven cooling and parts running very hot. Those have to burn lots of oil to prevent seizures of the valves and/or pistons. There is a reason why air cooled cars were advertised as "Never boiling", they keep running until something melts. wait- your car is an aircooler? |
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 6, 2015 8:07:40 GMT
 Kohler Four-Stroke Air-Cooled Diesel Engine - 25.2 HP Tatra make a Truck engine that is diesel air cooled....  |
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2015 15:27:03 GMT
Kohler Four-Stroke Air-Cooled Diesel Engine - 25.2 HP Tatra make a Truck engine that is diesel air cooled.... I know there are still air cooled engines out there. I was just comparing C-64's car to liquid cooled engines. which is as unfair as comparing oil consumption in wankel engines to regular engines. |
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Post by c64 on Jul 7, 2015 20:02:41 GMT
No, this one is VW and sold in "reasonably priced cars" only. Air cooled engines are designed very crude to tolerate uneven cooling and parts running very hot. Those have to burn lots of oil to prevent seizures of the valves and/or pistons. There is a reason why air cooled cars were advertised as "Never boiling", they keep running until something melts. wait- your car is an aircooler? No, like I wrote earlier, it likes to boil half a quart of water for no reason every now and then. Some Porsche are air cooled and those are known to guzzle a lot of oil. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 8, 2015 0:42:10 GMT
wait- your car is an aircooler? No, like I wrote earlier, it likes to boil half a quart of water for no reason every now and then. Some Porsche are air cooled and those are known to guzzle a lot of oil. then why are you bringing up aircoolers in a conversation about why your car is designed to burn oil? |
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