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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 21, 2017 14:44:57 GMT
As I said before, if the mother's life is in jeopardy, that's the only time I would find abortion an acceptable choice. But a 50/50 chance? I don't know. That would be up to the mother, but if it was me, I'd have to take the risk. now, keep in mind, that some states want to enforce rules that would prohibit a mother from aborting a baby that was going to be stillborn. personally, I'm of the opinion that a viable fetus is to be considered alive, and doctors are to make every reasonable effort to care for it. but I am also very aware that in an emergency situation, I may be making decisions about who gets emergency care, and who is not likely to benefit from it - and thus will not get care. Unless giving one person care is jeopardizing giving care to another, I don't think that is a decision you can make. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 21, 2017 14:52:37 GMT
now, keep in mind, that some states want to enforce rules that would prohibit a mother from aborting a baby that was going to be stillborn. personally, I'm of the opinion that a viable fetus is to be considered alive, and doctors are to make every reasonable effort to care for it. but I am also very aware that in an emergency situation, I may be making decisions about who gets emergency care, and who is not likely to benefit from it - and thus will not get care. Unless giving one person care is jeopardizing giving care to another, I don't think that is a decision you can make. the definition of a mass casualty incident is more injured than medics. that can be as few as two patients. so far, I haven't been the triage officer in any MCIs where lives were in jeopardy - though I can immediately think of two where there was loss of life. - and in the one I wasn't on scene for, there was the "why aren't you tending to that one?" question. yes, it is a decision I am trained to make, and it is a decision I may be called on to make in my career as an emergency responder. why would it be me? I'm NOT a medic - so I can be spared to do triage. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 21, 2017 15:16:51 GMT
Unless giving one person care is jeopardizing giving care to another, I don't think that is a decision you can make. the definition of a mass casualty incident is more injured than medics. that can be as few as two patients. so far, I haven't been the triage officer in any MCIs where lives were in jeopardy - though I can immediately think of two where there was loss of life. - and in the one I wasn't on scene for, there was the "why aren't you tending to that one?" question. yes, it is a decision I am trained to make, and it is a decision I may be called on to make in my career as an emergency responder. why would it be me? I'm NOT a medic - so I can be spared to do triage. I hope you never have to make that decision, but if you do, I have no doubt you will make the correct one based on the information you have at hand. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 21, 2017 15:34:54 GMT
the definition of a mass casualty incident is more injured than medics. that can be as few as two patients. so far, I haven't been the triage officer in any MCIs where lives were in jeopardy - though I can immediately think of two where there was loss of life. - and in the one I wasn't on scene for, there was the "why aren't you tending to that one?" question. yes, it is a decision I am trained to make, and it is a decision I may be called on to make in my career as an emergency responder. why would it be me? I'm NOT a medic - so I can be spared to do triage. I hope you never have to make that decision, but if you do, I have no doubt you will make the correct one based on the information you have at hand. you have to become dispassionate enough to let it become a numbers game. wasting resources on a dead person and wasting resources on a person in no immediate danger are equally bad. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 21, 2017 15:49:43 GMT
I hope you never have to make that decision, but if you do, I have no doubt you will make the correct one based on the information you have at hand. you have to become dispassionate enough to let it become a numbers game. wasting resources on a dead person and wasting resources on a person in no immediate danger are equally bad. Right. but those are the easier ones. The tough ones are do you help this 30 year old woman that will probably not make it without your help or do you help this 10 year old kid that will not make it with out your help. Those are the ones you need a coin toss to decide. And once you decide, all you can do is tell yourself you made the right choice. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 21, 2017 16:00:51 GMT
you have to become dispassionate enough to let it become a numbers game. wasting resources on a dead person and wasting resources on a person in no immediate danger are equally bad. Right. but those are the easier ones. The tough ones are do you help this 30 year old woman that will probably not make it without your help or do I help this 10 year old kid that will not make it with out your help. Those are the ones you need a coin toss to decide. And once you decide, all you can do is tell yourself you made the right choice. the one the medics are closest to. that's the "where do you start the triage process?" lesson - you start with the closest casualty, an work from there. - and as soon as you identify the first "red" patient, you start the medics working. |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 22, 2017 7:25:08 GMT
It already is a point of positive discrimination... Against family hereditary disease and disability. Yes I know the film, but, ... Well in this country in recent history there was a scramble to search al places that keep old medical equipment to find an "Iron lung", because despite a massive effort when I was young to eliminate Polio, someone managed to catch it. It is suspected they travelled here from outside the Commonwealth.... Anyway, we here in this country, have eradicated Polio, Smallpox, and a few others already, by a form of genetic manipulation and immunisation in Children, and the children of those children passing on the genes that fight those diseases to their kids.... So what is the difference?. |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 22, 2017 7:28:19 GMT
now, to further complicate the equation, what if it is a condition that shows a 50% chance of taking the mother with the baby? As I said before, if the mother's life is in jeopardy, that's the only time I would find abortion an acceptable choice. But a 50/50 chance? I don't know. A 50/50 chance both will die vs a 100% chance that one will. That would be up to the mother, but if it was me, I'd have to take the risk. Could be other factors involved in the decision also. Such as how many other small kids are dependent on that mother. Some pretty hard decisions to make. Its a 50/50 chance further surgery on my back will make me wheelchair bound and unable to walk. Therefore, that operation is not to be taken whilst I can still walk................. If its 50/50, its time to act. For the best outcome. Loosing BOTH child and mother, is that something you want to look back and say "We stood by and let nature take its course"?.. nature can be cruel. |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 22, 2017 7:42:44 GMT
you have to become dispassionate enough to let it become a numbers game. wasting resources on a dead person and wasting resources on a person in no immediate danger are equally bad. Right. but those are the easier ones. The tough ones are do you help this 30 year old woman that will probably not make it without your help or do you help this 10 year old kid that will not make it with out your help. Those are the ones you need a coin toss to decide. And once you decide, all you can do is tell yourself you made the right choice. At this point, may I wish respectfully, that no one reading this has to make these type of decisions. Ever. I have, it aint easy, its still not easy, 30 yrs later. Mass collision on a busy road in very bad weather... You have to ask, in almost freezing conditions, how long may I have continued with an early Gortex coat that leaked being soaking wet through and early stages of exposure/hypothermia myself, before I was in danger of putting myself in danger?. Having had Hypothermia early stages a few times by then, I knew I was pushing the limit. So in poring rain that had soaked all parts of everything I was wearing, totally, I went from person to person checking, organised the not so badly wounded to help those that were, because at times like this, people need to be told what to do, because being in shock, they just dont know what to do until someone tells them, set about a search party to find all possible sources of first aid kits, and helped where I could until emergency services arrived. You help the ones moaning loudly as you get to them first. You treat whats close to you first. You make the decision what can I do and what can I leave to emergency services until they arrive. You lash a broken limb lightly to an umbrella and tell the person no to move it and move on, you apply field dressings to stop the claret from spilling, you act quickly, you dont question decisions, " anything" you do now will be of benefit, and, unfortunately, you must leave the ones you cant help. One person trapped, there is three people trying to force the door open, do they really need a fourth?.. I move on, someone with glass in their face..... pull it out and have a bleeder or leave it there until someone has a suitable field dressing?. I need to stop remembering right about now before it gives me the creeps for the rest of the day?>>>outahere>> Also, Thank [*BEEP*] it rained that day, it washed spilt fuel away from the scene, on a dry day, would this have been a fire?. So truth is, Me being wet may have saved lives that day. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 22, 2017 13:51:37 GMT
It already is a point of positive discrimination... Against family hereditary disease and disability. Yes I know the film, but, ... Well in this country in recent history there was a scramble to search al places that keep old medical equipment to find an "Iron lung", because despite a massive effort when I was young to eliminate Polio, someone managed to catch it. It is suspected they travelled here from outside the Commonwealth.... Anyway, we here in this country, have eradicated Polio, Smallpox, and a few others already, by a form of genetic manipulation and immunisation in Children, and the children of those children passing on the genes that fight those diseases to their kids.... So what is the difference?. the difference comes when the company says, "oh, you have genetic markers for diabetes. we don't want you on our medical plan" or "you have genetic markers for heart disease. we're not going to waste money training you." or "oh, you're a "god baby" you must be inferior." |
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Post by the light works on Aug 22, 2017 13:57:52 GMT
we are cruder than that.
step 1: ask all who can do so to come to the corner of the scene - these are your green patients. they are lowest priority.
then you start on the rest:
are they breathing? if not take ONE try to reestablish airway. if they still aren't breathing, they're dead. black tag and move on.
are they breathing too fast? if you press on a fingernail, does it take too long to return to color? can they not answer simple questions? if yes, red tag and move on.
otherwise yellow tag and move on.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 30, 2017 6:15:01 GMT
we are cruder than that. step 1: ask all who can do so to come to the corner of the scene - these are your green patients. they are lowest priority. then you start on the rest: are they breathing? if not take ONE try to reestablish airway. if they still aren't breathing, they're dead. black tag and move on. are they breathing too fast? if you press on a fingernail, does it take too long to return to color? can they not answer simple questions? if yes, red tag and move on. otherwise yellow tag and move on. You can declare people dead? Over here, not even paramedics have the right to do that unless the head is separated from the body, there's obvious decomposition or there are "other injuries incompatible with life", such as a full separation of upper and lower body with internals spread out over a large area or a huge gaping hole in the chest from something large passing through where the heart used to be. Anything less than that and no one but a doctor can declare anyone dead. You keep trying until that happens, or until you're physically incapable of trying anymore. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 30, 2017 14:00:13 GMT
we are cruder than that. step 1: ask all who can do so to come to the corner of the scene - these are your green patients. they are lowest priority. then you start on the rest: are they breathing? if not take ONE try to reestablish airway. if they still aren't breathing, they're dead. black tag and move on. are they breathing too fast? if you press on a fingernail, does it take too long to return to color? can they not answer simple questions? if yes, red tag and move on. otherwise yellow tag and move on. You can declare people dead? Over here, not even paramedics have the right to do that unless the head is separated from the body, there's obvious decomposition or there are "other injuries incompatible with life", such as a full separation of upper and lower body with internals spread out over a large area or a huge gaping hole in the chest from something large passing through where the heart used to be. Anything less than that and no one but a doctor can declare anyone dead. You keep trying until that happens, or until you're physically incapable of trying anymore. under normal circumstances, I can only declare DOA with obvious signs of death - injuries incompatible with life, cold and stiff, not breathing with a DNR (do not resuscitate) but in a triage situation, the medics have their hands full keeping more people from dying, so there is no effort to bring a dead person back to life until everyone living is out of danger. - and here, paramedics can call deceased, too. |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 31, 2017 10:00:22 GMT
You can declare people dead? Over here, not even paramedics have the right to do that unless the head is separated from the body, there's obvious decomposition or there are "other injuries incompatible with life", such as a full separation of upper and lower body with internals spread out over a large area or a huge gaping hole in the chest from something large passing through where the heart used to be. Anything less than that and no one but a doctor can declare anyone dead. You keep trying until that happens, or until you're physically incapable of trying anymore. under normal circumstances, I can only declare DOA with obvious signs of death - injuries incompatible with life, cold and stiff, not breathing with a DNR (do not resuscitate) but in a triage situation, the medics have their hands full keeping more people from dying, so there is no effort to bring a dead person back to life until everyone living is out of danger. - and here, paramedics can call deceased, too. We have that situation to deal with in the "Advanced" First Aid. For me, Mountain Rescue, then RAF, and now HGV Dangerous goods?. We are NOT paramedics, but, we must consider what e can and cant do with what we got. If its obvious someone has passed, but there are other people alive, you must consider who will benefit more from immediate action. Resuscitating a possible deceased body or helping the one who without help will die soon.... Again, here is a prayer to every god you may believe in that you dont have to make that decision. But when you do... Your actions may haunt you for decades?. [<<< experience...] And its now why I may have a first aid kit on board, but, I do not want to be "registered" as anything but bloody amateur in health care, despite what I may know, I dont want to be the "Registered" first aider on site. I cant handle that type of responsibility?. I can help, I WILL help, but thats all. Until the professionals arrive, and I can hand over without worries.... I have to have certain first aid certification to drive HGV with ADR Dangerous goods, but I dont want any more than is absolutely necessary. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 31, 2017 14:50:30 GMT
a friend just clued me in to an implication that Texas does not have a state fire code and prohibits most counties from adopting their own fire codes.
I'm getting mixed results from a search - it turns up one article behind an adwall that implies that, and several articles citing various fire codes.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 31, 2017 15:39:22 GMT
a friend just clued me in to an implication that Texas does not have a state fire code and prohibits most counties from adopting their own fire codes. I'm getting mixed results from a search - it turns up one article behind an adwall that implies that, and several articles citing various fire codes. Hard to believe that there would be no fire codes. But then, it is the country of Texas. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 31, 2017 15:44:51 GMT
a friend just clued me in to an implication that Texas does not have a state fire code and prohibits most counties from adopting their own fire codes. I'm getting mixed results from a search - it turns up one article behind an adwall that implies that, and several articles citing various fire codes. Hard to believe that there would be no fire codes. But then, it is the country of Texas. it appears that they still recognize national codes, but don't do their own. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 31, 2017 15:52:39 GMT
Hard to believe that there would be no fire codes. But then, it is the country of Texas. it appears that they still recognize national codes, but don't do their own. I think that is often the case. That's what they do in my hometown. Sometimes they also throw in a few of their own, but mostly it's the federal codes. |
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 31, 2017 22:01:28 GMT
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Post by the light works on Sept 1, 2017 2:12:35 GMT
there is a big *redacted* difference between brain dead and brain damaged/comatose/PVS. if he doesn't know or admit that, then he has no credibility as far as I'm concerned. |
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