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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 6, 2015 14:32:39 GMT
and if you had removed the condensor from the distiller, you would have achieved the same net effect as the system you built. That's just what the guy that designed the system thought, and that's essentially what he did. My part was just the electronics that controlled the system. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 14:46:13 GMT
and if you had removed the condensor from the distiller, you would have achieved the same net effect as the system you built. That's just what the guy that designed the system thought, and that's essentially what he did. My part was just the electronics that controlled the system. my only concern with the idea would be the heat added to the system. if you had adequate cooling, that wouldn't be an issue. |
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Post by c64 on Sept 6, 2015 15:23:15 GMT
And even if the sound method would actually produce pressurized steam, you need to put in more than twice as much energy into the steam than you can harvest by a turbine powered generator. by using natural gas turbines as the heat source, we're getting up to 54% efficiency as of plants installed in 2001. not sure if we've gotten better than that, yet. that plant also produces heating steam, and I don't know if that is counted or not. it also uses processed wastewater as coolant, which produces airborne humidity. - and advantage where the plant is located. [/quote] natural gas power plants don't use steam, they work with the exhaust gasses from burning the natural gas. While burned natural gas contains some steam, you can harvest a lot more energy before condensation becomes a problem. That's why they can be much more efficient. The trouble is that they are rather weak for their size and natural gas is much more expensive so they are not economic at all. There are only two reasons why they are built: 1. They can spin up and down real quickly. A coal power plant needs about an hour to change power throughput so it is too slow to react to load changes on the grid. Gas power plants are used to keep the grid balanced. 2. Common power plants can't work without power on the grid. When the grid is lost, the generators need to shut down and the plant is out of power. Gas power plants don't need power to shut them down without damage and they are rather small and can be regulated very quickly so they can generate power on their own without the grid. So they can be started on their own unsynchronized and without steady load safely from battery or a small diesel generator. In Germany, natural gas power plants are located near the nuclear power plants. First of all to restart the grid after a cascade failure and to serve as backup power generation for the nuclear power plants to prevent a Fukushima scenario. Also they can balance the grid for the very slow nuclear power plants. The save reaction time of a nuclear power plant is almost half a day! |
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Post by c64 on Sept 6, 2015 15:27:37 GMT
and if you had removed the condensor from the distiller, you would have achieved the same net effect as the system you built. That's just what the guy that designed the system thought, and that's essentially what he did. My part was just the electronics that controlled the system. I have made electronics for A/C systems, too. The kind of humidifier I used was much more simple and energy efficient. A tank with a large circular plastic sponge dipping inside. It looks like a whetstone. The lower half is submerged and there is a fan behind the top half blowing through the sponge. A toilet tank type valve keeps the water level constant and there are chemicals in the water preventing legionela and mould. The chemicals don't vaporize so as long as the tank isn't leaking, the system is efficient and safe. I added a bunch of moisture sensor stripes to detect leaks. When on, the sponge revolves and the fan is turned on. When off, the water in the sponge runs down so there is not much surface of water exposed. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 15:39:19 GMT
And even if the sound method would actually produce pressurized steam, you need to put in more than twice as much energy into the steam than you can harvest by a turbine powered generator. by using natural gas turbines as the heat source, we're getting up to 54% efficiency as of plants installed in 2001. not sure if we've gotten better than that, yet. that plant also produces heating steam, and I don't know if that is counted or not. it also uses processed wastewater as coolant, which produces airborne humidity. - and advantage where the plant is located. natural gas power plants don't use steam, they work with the exhaust gasses from burning the natural gas. While burned natural gas contains some steam, you can harvest a lot more energy before condensation becomes a problem. That's why they can be much more efficient. The trouble is that they are rather weak for their size and natural gas is much more expensive so they are not economic at all. There are only two reasons why they are built: 1. They can spin up and down real quickly. A coal power plant needs about an hour to change power throughput so it is too slow to react to load changes on the grid. Gas power plants are used to keep the grid balanced. 2. Common power plants can't work without power on the grid. When the grid is lost, the generators need to shut down and the plant is out of power. Gas power plants don't need power to shut them down without damage and they are rather small and can be regulated very quickly so they can generate power on their own without the grid. So they can be started on their own unsynchronized and without steady load safely from battery or a small diesel generator. In Germany, natural gas power plants are located near the nuclear power plants. First of all to restart the grid after a cascade failure and to serve as backup power generation for the nuclear power plants to prevent a Fukushima scenario. Also they can balance the grid for the very slow nuclear power plants. The save reaction time of a nuclear power plant is almost half a day![/quote] then how did I spend three weeks wrapping heat trace on the boiler of the power plant? and if the gas turbine is rather weak, how is the power plant rated at 54% efficiency? and if it doesn't use steam, why is the gas turbine used as a heat source and how can they sell heating steam to the nearby plywood mill? |
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Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 15:43:05 GMT
That's just what the guy that designed the system thought, and that's essentially what he did. My part was just the electronics that controlled the system. I have made electronics for A/C systems, too. The kind of humidifier I used was much more simple and energy efficient. A tank with a large circular plastic sponge dipping inside. It looks like a whetstone. The lower half is submerged and there is a fan behind the top half blowing through the sponge. A toilet tank type valve keeps the water level constant and there are chemicals in the water preventing legionela and mould. The chemicals don't vaporize so as long as the tank isn't leaking, the system is efficient and safe. I added a bunch of moisture sensor stripes to detect leaks. When on, the sponge revolves and the fan is turned on. When off, the water in the sponge runs down so there is not much surface of water exposed. so it would have a much slower humidification response than the one Greg mentioned. it sounds like a more mechanically involved version of our swamp coolers which pump water into the top of a plastic mesh, and the air circulation fan draws air through the mesh to be cooled and humidified by evaporation. |
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Post by c64 on Sept 6, 2015 16:11:01 GMT
I have made electronics for A/C systems, too. The kind of humidifier I used was much more simple and energy efficient. A tank with a large circular plastic sponge dipping inside. It looks like a whetstone. The lower half is submerged and there is a fan behind the top half blowing through the sponge. A toilet tank type valve keeps the water level constant and there are chemicals in the water preventing legionela and mould. The chemicals don't vaporize so as long as the tank isn't leaking, the system is efficient and safe. I added a bunch of moisture sensor stripes to detect leaks. When on, the sponge revolves and the fan is turned on. When off, the water in the sponge runs down so there is not much surface of water exposed. so it would have a much slower humidification response than the one Greg mentioned. it sounds like a more mechanically involved version of our swamp coolers which pump water into the top of a plastic mesh, and the air circulation fan draws air through the mesh to be cooled and humidified by evaporation. This is rather quick since no heat up time and when the sponge revolves, it starts to emit moisture almost instantly. Also the system was PID controlled so it could keep the humidity almost perfectly constant. The very sensitive hygrometer monitoring the art storage drew very straight lines. It is so sensitive that even standing next to it will show in the graph. |
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Post by c64 on Sept 6, 2015 16:15:36 GMT
by using natural gas turbines as the heat source, we're getting up to 54% efficiency as of plants installed in 2001. not sure if we've gotten better than that, yet. that plant also produces heating steam, and I don't know if that is counted or not. it also uses processed wastewater as coolant, which produces airborne humidity. - and advantage where the plant is located. natural gas power plants don't use steam, they work with the exhaust gasses from burning the natural gas. While burned natural gas contains some steam, you can harvest a lot more energy before condensation becomes a problem. That's why they can be much more efficient. The trouble is that they are rather weak for their size and natural gas is much more expensive so they are not economic at all. There are only two reasons why they are built: 1. They can spin up and down real quickly. A coal power plant needs about an hour to change power throughput so it is too slow to react to load changes on the grid. Gas power plants are used to keep the grid balanced. 2. Common power plants can't work without power on the grid. When the grid is lost, the generators need to shut down and the plant is out of power. Gas power plants don't need power to shut them down without damage and they are rather small and can be regulated very quickly so they can generate power on their own without the grid. So they can be started on their own unsynchronized and without steady load safely from battery or a small diesel generator. In Germany, natural gas power plants are located near the nuclear power plants. First of all to restart the grid after a cascade failure and to serve as backup power generation for the nuclear power plants to prevent a Fukushima scenario. Also they can balance the grid for the very slow nuclear power plants. The save reaction time of a nuclear power plant is almost half a day! then how did I spend three weeks wrapping heat trace on the boiler of the power plant? and if the gas turbine is rather weak, how is the power plant rated at 54% efficiency? and if it doesn't use steam, why is the gas turbine used as a heat source and how can they sell heating steam to the nearby plywood mill? [/quote] Then it is a conventional power plant with a gas burner. I don't know any plant in Europe built this way. Our gas powered plants work like a turboprop airplane. A gas turbine burning the natural gas internally and driving a generator over a reduction gear instead of a propeller. They also can sell heat since the exhaust gasses are captured and run through a heat exchanger. I assume your 56% include the sold heat? |
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 6, 2015 19:37:09 GMT
I have made electronics for A/C systems, too. The kind of humidifier I used was much more simple and energy efficient. A tank with a large circular plastic sponge dipping inside. It looks like a whetstone. The lower half is submerged and there is a fan behind the top half blowing through the sponge. A toilet tank type valve keeps the water level constant and there are chemicals in the water preventing legionela and mould. The chemicals don't vaporize so as long as the tank isn't leaking, the system is efficient and safe. I added a bunch of moisture sensor stripes to detect leaks. When on, the sponge revolves and the fan is turned on. When off, the water in the sponge runs down so there is not much surface of water exposed. I really don't know why they designed the system the way they did. The head mechanical engineer they had working there seemed to be very knowledgeable when it came to HVAC systems. In fact, I learned a LOT about refrigeration systems from that man. It was a rather sophisticated system that could cool, dehumidify without cooling by using full or partial hot gas bypass, provide heat working as a heat pump and/or using electric resistance heaters, and humidify using the boiler pan. They had been selling these systems for many years but with a large box of electro-mechanical controls operating it. They wanted a more updated control system and that's when I got involved. They sold about 300 more systems, using my controls, over the next couple of years but then the owner of the company died. The man's wife sold off the company and that was pretty much the end of my involvement with them. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 6, 2015 19:59:13 GMT
Here's the lowdown on how gas turbine power plants work. It appears there are two types. The smaller type just uses a jet engine type turbine to turn a generator. These are usually used in "peaker" power plants to provide power only during peak load times on the grid. They fire up fast and their output can be easily varied as needed. They are not that efficient. The larger type power plants often has an exhaust heat recuperating system that uses steam to preheat the air from the compressor stage going into the power stage of the turbine. If the waste heat steam is also used to generate electricity using an additional steam turbine, overall fuel efficiencies as high as 60% are possible. When that steam is also used for industrial heating, they claim the overall fuel efficiency of the plant can be as high as 80%. energy.gov/fe/how-gas-turbine-power-plants-work |
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Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 22:37:41 GMT
natural gas power plants don't use steam, they work with the exhaust gasses from burning the natural gas. While burned natural gas contains some steam, you can harvest a lot more energy before condensation becomes a problem. That's why they can be much more efficient. The trouble is that they are rather weak for their size and natural gas is much more expensive so they are not economic at all. There are only two reasons why they are built: 1. They can spin up and down real quickly. A coal power plant needs about an hour to change power throughput so it is too slow to react to load changes on the grid. Gas power plants are used to keep the grid balanced. 2. Common power plants can't work without power on the grid. When the grid is lost, the generators need to shut down and the plant is out of power. Gas power plants don't need power to shut them down without damage and they are rather small and can be regulated very quickly so they can generate power on their own without the grid. So they can be started on their own unsynchronized and without steady load safely from battery or a small diesel generator. In Germany, natural gas power plants are located near the nuclear power plants. First of all to restart the grid after a cascade failure and to serve as backup power generation for the nuclear power plants to prevent a Fukushima scenario. Also they can balance the grid for the very slow nuclear power plants. The save reaction time of a nuclear power plant is almost half a day! then how did I spend three weeks wrapping heat trace on the boiler of the power plant? and if the gas turbine is rather weak, how is the power plant rated at 54% efficiency? and if it doesn't use steam, why is the gas turbine used as a heat source and how can they sell heating steam to the nearby plywood mill? Then it is a conventional power plant with a gas burner. I don't know any plant in Europe built this way. Our gas powered plants work like a turboprop airplane. A gas turbine burning the natural gas internally and driving a generator over a reduction gear instead of a propeller. They also can sell heat since the exhaust gasses are captured and run through a heat exchanger. I assume your 56% include the sold heat? [/quote] It uses a natural gas turbine as the primary generator, the turbine exhaust runs through a superheated steam boiler to drive a steam turbine as a secondary generator. I don't know if the 56% figure includes selling heating steam to the mill. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 22:39:49 GMT
Here's the lowdown on how gas turbine power plants work. It appears there are two types. The smaller type just uses a jet engine type turbine to turn a generator. These are usually used in "peaker" power plants to provide power only during peak load times on the grid. They fire up fast and their output can be easily varied as needed. They are not that efficient. The larger type power plants often has an exhaust heat recuperating system that uses steam to preheat the air from the compressor stage going into the power stage of the turbine. If the waste heat steam is also used to generate electricity using an additional steam turbine, overall fuel efficiencies as high as 60% are possible. When that steam is also used for industrial heating, they claim the overall fuel efficiency of the plant can be as high as 80%. energy.gov/fe/how-gas-turbine-power-plants-workhere is the plant I worked on. iberdrolarenewables.us/klamath.htmlso I guess on reviewing, the superheated steam is sold to the mill as process steam - to turn THEIR gear, rather than turning a second generator. the write up isn't 100% clear - and it's been nearly 15 years since I worked on it. |
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Post by c64 on Sept 7, 2015 18:04:50 GMT
Here's the lowdown on how gas turbine power plants work. It appears there are two types. The smaller type just uses a jet engine type turbine to turn a generator. These are usually used in "peaker" power plants to provide power only during peak load times on the grid. They fire up fast and their output can be easily varied as needed. They are not that efficient. The larger type power plants often has an exhaust heat recuperating system that uses steam to preheat the air from the compressor stage going into the power stage of the turbine. If the waste heat steam is also used to generate electricity using an additional steam turbine, overall fuel efficiencies as high as 60% are possible. When that steam is also used for industrial heating, they claim the overall fuel efficiency of the plant can be as high as 80%. energy.gov/fe/how-gas-turbine-power-plants-workIn Germany there is a very unique gas turbine plant which was designed to balance the load on the nuclear power plants when we still had those in operation. A giant electric blower consumes excess energy pumping air into vast underground caverns. When the cavern has a good pressure and there is a demand for electricity, the compressed air is then fed into the gas turbine. This boosts the efficiency of the turbine since it lacks the compressor stage. Also you get the greater efficiency of burning the gas plus most of the energy back the blower had consumed charging the cavern. |
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