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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 19, 2015 23:29:49 GMT
If you detonated 1 ton of TNT in an enclosed trailer, could you extrapolate the blast radius & shockwave zone from the result? Though, increasing the amount of TNT, would the damage be a linear relation (2T TNT = 2x damage of 1T) or exponential (2T TNT = damage of 1T ^2)? Is there a formula for figuring out how much damage is caused by a certain amount of TNT? Define "damage". That's an extremely subjective term. Would 'resulting force' be better? |
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 19, 2015 23:52:46 GMT
Define "damage". That's an extremely subjective term. Would 'resulting force' be better? Sounds more like something you could express through an equation, yes  Now, I'm no math shark, but I'm guessing it's going to be a little more advanced than double/double or an exponential increase. Without knowing how to put any of it together in mathematical terms, I can at least deduce that just some of the factors are going to be energy output, blast wave velocity, air density/humidity, surface material properties (how much of the energy the surface on which the TNT is placed will absorb/deflect) and energy dissipation over time and distance. And that's just if you detonate it in the open. Enclose it in a container and there's bound to be some extra factors thrown in, like how and where the container will fail and how the resistance from that material will deflect parts of the shockwave. I've seen members here do math in the past that I couldn't even begin to understand, but I think this might just be too big of a handful for anyone here to take on... |
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Post by the light works on Aug 20, 2015 1:14:28 GMT
If you detonated 1 ton of TNT in an enclosed trailer, could you extrapolate the blast radius & shockwave zone from the result? Though, increasing the amount of TNT, would the damage be a linear relation (2T TNT = 2x damage of 1T) or exponential (2T TNT = damage of 1T ^2)? Is there a formula for figuring out how much damage is caused by a certain amount of TNT? Define "damage". That's an extremely subjective term. energy produced would probably be the most quantifiable thing to measure. though how one measures the energy produced by big explosions and what units you would use are beyond me. |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 20, 2015 5:37:19 GMT
To clear up some things. First, it was not TNT that caused that blast, I suspect Sodium cyanide from what was mentioned on some reports was being stored on site, what it was detonated with remains a mystery, although I have given up smoking completely since the blast....  (I may smoulder gently...) [edit, of course I was not anywhere close to this event... just joking?...]The blast was the "equivalent" of 21 tons TNT, not an actual 21 tons of TNT, as mentioned, you dont get to store 21 tons of TNT in the same place for very long.... The blast its self was reported as a seismic event from as far away as America. From the needle jumps and knowing what explosions do already, they worked out that a blast of 21 tons of TNT would cause the same jump on the Seismometer, or whatever they use to monitor global events like that. |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 20, 2015 6:07:27 GMT
Multiple blasts.
I have a question about multiple "sympathetic detonation" events.
Because I believe that this blast was caused by a sympathetic detonation....It aint sympathetic to the poor sod that lit it, only to its self, but its "trade union" detonation, one out, the lot out, once one goes bang, it will quickly set off all others in its blast radius.
So, if you set off one huge blast of a whole pile of 20 odd tons, you get a certain shock wave, of a certain predictable "shape".
Right.
Now as I mention above, you dont get to store that amount of explosive in ONE shipping container at the same time because of safety fears....
So.
Questions
Sodium cyanide, what creates the bang where this is used.
If a small container of this detonated, how close would another container have to be to create sympathetic detonation.
What are exactly the quantity limitations on storage at a docks where this stuff is imported.
What exactly are the limitations on quantity transportation.
How exactly does this equate to TNT as explosive.
As in, is it a 1:1 in weight, or a 3:1 equivalent of weight.
When that has been worked out, what quantity would have to be used to get an equivalent of 21 tons of TNT.
What would be the exact storage arrangements under ADR for either UK / USA or Chinese laws
HOW THE (BEEP) WERE THEY ALLOWED TO STORE THAT AMOUNT INSIDE CITY LIMITS....
Further questions on LQ of ADR Explosion risks.
If a suitable container is found, what could make that detonate with enough force to detonate the one next to it if it was stored.
Next question.
If a "row" of smaller blasts were created simultaneously, going back to the "shape" of one huge pile, how would a row of detonations change the shape of that blast.
As in, simplified, do you get one BIG mushroom, or lots of little ones.....
If that was a series of sympathetic detonations, one blast causing the next, there would be a time delay, maybe only micro-seconds between, but how would that shape the blast.
Think controlled building demolition on that, they will use a time delay between blasts to keep the blast waves down and shape the demolition on that, but this will of course be less time between blasts.
So looking at all that, can we go back to the thread proposition...
In the case of explosives that WILL have sympathetic detonation risks, in the current law of limited quantity transport, can we....
Design a shipping crate that will contain the blast.
Design a crate that in containing the blast will also prevent the blast detonation a crate stored close.
Design a crate that DOES blow the bloody doors of if it should fail, but ONLY blows the bloody doors of, therefore, if the crate blows, the blast wave would not detonate a crate stored on top or below or to the side of the detonated crate.
And by the way, this explosion shows graphically the reason why ADR....
I expect "Dodgy dealings" to be behind the blast already.....
Why?
Because it went bang.
If the safety failed at that site, something went horribly wrong, and I expect that the safety procedures were NOT being followed, the exclusion zones were NOT in place, the safety barriers were NOT in place, and several other charges of miss handling.
I cant say until the truth comes out.
You expecting that truth any time soon?...
I aint.
So here is a conundrum....
Can you take the "word" of an EX ADR dangerous goods driver at this point?.. no you bloody well shouldnt.
Its just that in what I do, under "almost perfect conditions", I can tell you that this blast is a should never have happened event, and extremely suspicious, mainly because it has happened....
I suspect a small "event" cause a fire that set of one blast, that blast set off another, and so on, they still dont know exactly how many minor blasts there were preceding the main event, but that blast somehow managed to get to all the storage facility and triggered a multiple blast and everything else went up simultaneously.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 20, 2015 6:37:37 GMT
I've never held an ADR lisence myself, but I know enough about it that I smell something fishy by the mere mentioning of them storing different potentially explosive chemicals very close to each other. That just can't be legal.
As per reports I've read/heard on the news, they stored the sodium cyanide right next to a very large quantity of ammonium nitrate. And we all know ammonium nitrate from movies and TV shows as "that chemical", used in bombs by terrorists the world over. It's the "AN" in "ANFO" and there's not a person on this board who hasn't seen what ANFO can do.
Safety regulations have certainly been set aside and - this having happened in China - I wouldn't be surprised at all if the investigation uncovers that it's nothing more sinister than a classic case of "pay with peanuts, get monkeys".
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 20, 2015 13:18:55 GMT
I love the way our minds work around here! While other message boards on the interwebz are concentrating on conspiracy theories (Jimmy Hoffa paid Bigfoot to do it...), we're dissecting what we learn in news reports and applying our individual knowledge & expertise to try to figure out the how/why of it happening. On top of that, we are thinking of ways to test to, perhaps, prevent this from happening again (container design, arrangement, etc).
Unfortuntely, I have not been able to find a conversion factor to go from Sodium Cyanide to TNT (as with ANFO to TNT). Most of what I've learned about the chemical is that it is dangerous stuff and poses threats after the explosion, such as it being corrosive/hazardous to human contact. So, perhaps, we should work off the concept of it being the equivalent of a 21T TNT explosion because that's something we can quantify and explore.
Thinking more about what it means to be bombproof: Is it more important to examine the damage done to the container holding the TNT or the damage done to the containers around that one? Does the container holding the TNT have to be completely decimated to cause a catastrophic chain reaction?
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Post by the light works on Aug 20, 2015 13:49:54 GMT
on the topic of AN. it was AN, without the FO that built the blast in the town of West, in Texas, not too long ago. if you get it hot enough, then even without the FO it goes WHOMP. and since then, our government had come down hard on places that produce and store it, because as implied, at room temperature, it is just an irritant and takes gloves and dust mask level precautions. but when you store it in big wooden tubs, and the big wooden tubs catch fire, it becomes dangerous.
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(I may smoulder gently...)[edit, of course I was not anywhere close to this event... just joking?...]