|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 17, 2015 0:16:47 GMT
first up: target s behind a wall - shooter tracks the target and shoots him through the wall.
first; shoot through the wall.
1: lath & plaster.
2: drywall with insulation
3: steel stud
4: wood stud
5: copper plumbing
6: steel electrical box.
next: from shoot-em-up.
handful of bullets HELD in a fire - will it work?
next: can you track your target (behind the wall) either by best guess, or by sound?
thoughts:
i would have liked to see water in the plumbing. it may not have made any difference in the result, but it would have looked cool and been more accurate.
bullets in the fire: they've done this before. hence I wasn't all that surprised.
|
|
|
|
Post by ironhold on Aug 17, 2015 0:28:27 GMT
A few years back I picked up a how-to DVD on tactical shooting in "everyday" environments; it was part of a large batch lot of used DVDs I got at a garage sale.
One sequence had the host examining a mock-up of a large house; the training exercise involved people having to move tactically and make quick judgments as to whether or not a target was friend or foe. One of the trainees, during the debrief, noted that he could actually see one of the "bad guy" cut-outs through a crack in a partially-opened door, and wondered if he should have simply shot through the door. The instructor responded by resetting those two rooms (the one the shooter was in and the one the target was in), at which point he realized that a person could, indeed, see the "bad guy" cutout through the crack in the door.
He then responded by shooting through the door (a generic plywood number like what most houses have), in the process getting the cutout as well.
Given that most interior walls aren't that much more solid, I knew it could happen anyway.
As it is, though, they used fiberglass insulation, but didn't use spray foam insulation.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 17, 2015 1:07:29 GMT
A few years back I picked up a how-to DVD on tactical shooting in "everyday" environments; it was part of a large batch lot of used DVDs I got at a garage sale. One sequence had the host examining a mock-up of a large house; the training exercise involved people having to move tactically and make quick judgments as to whether or not a target was friend or foe. One of the trainees, during the debrief, noted that he could actually see one of the "bad guy" cut-outs through a crack in a partially-opened door, and wondered if he should have simply shot through the door. The instructor responded by resetting those two rooms (the one the shooter was in and the one the target was in), at which point he realized that a person could, indeed, see the "bad guy" cutout through the crack in the door. He then responded by shooting through the door (a generic plywood number like what most houses have), in the process getting the cutout as well. Given that most interior walls aren't that much more solid, I knew it could happen anyway. As it is, though, they used fiberglass insulation, but didn't use spray foam insulation. spray foam is horrible stuff. it will stop a remodel, but it probably won't stop a bullet. |
|
|
|
Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 17, 2015 1:12:18 GMT
thoughts: i would have liked to see water in the plumbing. it may not have made any difference in the result, but it would have looked cool and been more accurate. I'm with you on this. But, I think having water in the pipes would have a made a significant difference since they showed in a different show (a couple seasons ago) that bullets tend to explode when they make contact with water. Done before? Yes and no. Yes, it was done before to the extent of seeing whether or not bullets would go off in a fire. No, they did not test time to firing or the accuracy of the shot. But, regardless, I didn't give much credence to this myth. |
|
|
|
Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 17, 2015 1:20:18 GMT
Other thoughts: How about a wall with a 'birds nest' of wiring inside of it, would that have effected the outcome? I believe they used standard drywall outside the lath & plaster, why not sheetrock or greenboard (Hardybacker)? I'm sure there are a multitude of variables they left out due to time constraints. I enjoyed watching A&J going through the Hitman mock-up house. They were like two little kids in the proverbial candy store. And, it got me thinking that if all of us ever met, THAT is where we would meet before the bar.  I also enjoyed watching J do the blacksmithing and discussing it ('turning nothing into something') as well as A talking about how wonderful the Hitman course was ('there's something about the silence...'). |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 17, 2015 1:46:16 GMT
Other thoughts: How about a wall with a 'birds nest' of wiring inside of it, would that have effected the outcome? I believe they used standard drywall outside the lath & plaster, why not sheetrock or greenboard (Hardybacker)? I'm sure there are a multitude of variables they left out due to time constraints. I enjoyed watching A&J going through the Hitman mock-up house. They were like two little kids in the proverbial candy store. And, it got me thinking that if all of us ever met, THAT is where we would meet before the bar. I also enjoyed watching J do the blacksmithing and discussing it ('turning nothing into something') as well as A talking about how wonderful the Hitman course was ('there's something about the silence...'). drywall and sheetrock are the same product. greenboard is sheetrock treated for mold and mildew resistance. structurally the same. a tile wall with hardibacker would have been interesting and different. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 17, 2015 1:50:02 GMT
thoughts: i would have liked to see water in the plumbing. it may not have made any difference in the result, but it would have looked cool and been more accurate. I'm with you on this. But, I think having water in the pipes would have a made a significant difference since they showed in a different show (a couple seasons ago) that bullets tend to explode when they make contact with water. Done before? Yes and no. Yes, it was done before to the extent of seeing whether or not bullets would go off in a fire. No, they did not test time to firing or the accuracy of the shot. But, regardless, I didn't give much credence to this myth. water is a bit of a wild card. a guy I knew reportedly shot a styrofoam cup of water with a .44 magnum and found the slug behind the cup. I've put a .22 magnum through a gallon jug of water. the bullets in the fire episode was also a question of whether they carried enough energy to be dangerous - so the added factors was really whether you could do it without burning your hand off, and whether you could aim them. |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Aug 17, 2015 6:40:28 GMT
As opposed to many previous myths done in this season, I have no problems with how any of this was tested. All tests seemed thought out, were done properly and made entertaining TV.
On the other hand, the results of both myths - at least to me - were glaringly obvious before the tests even started and I think at least the 'Shoot 'Em Up' myth was to Adam and Jamie as well. Adam did seem genuinely surprised at how relatively easy it was to track and shoot someone through a wall, but I can't say I was surprised.
A bullet has a lot of kinetic energy and most inside wall coverings in houses are weak enough that, if you know where to do it (avoid studs and other stuff inside the wall) and you apply enough force, you can punch your hand straight through materials like plywood and drywall. If you punch with enough force to go through both layers, insulation isn't going to do much to stop you. I've seen it done numerous times.
As for the tracking part, well... Inside walls aren't all that thick, so hearing movement and pinpointing it with at least some degree of accuracy isn't that hard. And if you know the other guy has a gun as well and you have enough ammo, why not try to get him through the wall before he has a shot at you? You might not make the shot every time, but it can definitely be worth a try. If nothing else, just getting close enough that pieces of wall are flying around his ears will stress him to a point where you might get the psychological upper hand.
The hitman maze was by far the best part of the show and one of the best tests they've done this season. Both Adam's description of the intensity of the experience and Jamie's explanation of how he was able to make the shots made it even better.
I've always been impressed with Adam's storytelling abilities, both on Mythbusters and when he does other stuff, but my main joy at this point in the show is seeing Jamie become more comfortable and natural in front of the camera. The man has a lot of knowledge and has a knack for understanding how things work that most people just don't. It's like he sees the world with a child's eyes, but is able to apply adult logic to it, which I think is also why he's so good at explaining things in total layman's terms. Him becoming more comfortable with doing that in front of the camera adds a new dimension to the show that I really like.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 17, 2015 14:20:25 GMT
As opposed to many previous myths done in this season, I have no problems with how any of this was tested. All tests seemed thought out, were done properly and made entertaining TV. On the other hand, the results of both myths - at least to me - were glaringly obvious before the tests even started and I think at least the 'Shoot 'Em Up' myth was to Adam and Jamie as well. Adam did seem genuinely surprised at how relatively easy it was to track and shoot someone through a wall, but I can't say I was surprised. A bullet has a lot of kinetic energy and most inside wall coverings in houses are weak enough that, if you know where to do it (avoid studs and other stuff inside the wall) and you apply enough force, you can punch your hand straight through materials like plywood and drywall. If you punch with enough force to go through both layers, insulation isn't going to do much to stop you. I've seen it done numerous times. As for the tracking part, well... Inside walls aren't all that thick, so hearing movement and pinpointing it with at least some degree of accuracy isn't that hard. And if you know the other guy has a gun as well and you have enough ammo, why not try to get him through the wall before he has a shot at you? You might not make the shot every time, but it can definitely be worth a try. If nothing else, just getting close enough that pieces of wall are flying around his ears will stress him to a point where you might get the psychological upper hand. The hitman maze was by far the best part of the show and one of the best tests they've done this season. Both Adam's description of the intensity of the experience and Jamie's explanation of how he was able to make the shots made it even better. I've always been impressed with Adam's storytelling abilities, both on Mythbusters and when he does other stuff, but my main joy at this point in the show is seeing Jamie become more comfortable and natural in front of the camera. The man has a lot of knowledge and has a knack for understanding how things work that most people just don't. It's like he sees the world with a child's eyes, but is able to apply adult logic to it, which I think is also why he's so good at explaining things in total layman's terms. Him becoming more comfortable with doing that in front of the camera adds a new dimension to the show that I really like. I was actually surprised the steel junction box trapped the slug. I've hit a transmission oil pan with a .45 ACP and it punched a hole. of course, I was shooting ball and they were shooting JHP. |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Aug 17, 2015 14:44:03 GMT
I assume that if I'd ever watched Breaking Bad the bits with the guest star would have made more sense? (I know they mentioned online that he was from that show.) It seemed like he was brought on to shoot the intro, and then they were looking for some reason to shoehorn him into the rest of the episode.
Is the camera that shot the 73,000 FPS gunshot a new one for the show, or did they borrow it?
It would have been nice if they'd made some reference to the bullets in a fire test, but the movie scene they were testing was different enough that I can understand why they didn't.
I would have expected the walls to do more to slow bullets -- maybe not the lath and plaster one (a friend's home is built that way, and I saw how easily they tore those walls out during the bathroom remodel), but if you'd asked me before the episode I would have guessed that the overlapping fibers in fiberglass insulation would have done a lot to slow that round.
I wasn't surprised at all by the results of the Hitman mockup house contest, though I hope Adam had some paintball armor under his costume.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 17, 2015 15:10:33 GMT
I assume that if I'd ever watched Breaking Bad the bits with the guest star would have made more sense? (I know they mentioned online that he was from that show.) It seemed like he was brought on to shoot the intro, and then they were looking for some reason to shoehorn him into the rest of the episode. Is the camera that shot the 73,000 FPS gunshot a new one for the show, or did they borrow it? It would have been nice if they'd made some reference to the bullets in a fire test, but the movie scene they were testing was different enough that I can understand why they didn't. I would have expected the walls to do more to slow bullets -- maybe not the lath and plaster one (a friend's home is built that way, and I saw how easily they tore those walls out during the bathroom remodel), but if you'd asked me before the episode I would have guessed that the overlapping fibers in fiberglass insulation would have done a lot to slow that round. I wasn't surprised at all by the results of the Hitman mockup house contest, though I hope Adam had some paintball armor under his costume. fiberglass batt insulation is very low density. I expected the lath and plaster to make more difference than the sheetrock, because the sheetrock is made from softer material than plaster. of course, the plaster is thinner than the sheetrock. I would have liked to see blalistics gel blocks behind the wall tests, just to see wound paths, as well, but the critical part was that the slugs still carried significant energy. |
|
|
|
Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 17, 2015 15:14:05 GMT
I assume that if I'd ever watched Breaking Bad the bits with the guest star would have made more sense? (I know they mentioned online that he was from that show.) It seemed like he was brought on to shoot the intro, and then they were looking for some reason to shoehorn him into the rest of the episode. Is the camera that shot the 73,000 FPS gunshot a new one for the show, or did they borrow it? It would have been nice if they'd made some reference to the bullets in a fire test, but the movie scene they were testing was different enough that I can understand why they didn't. I would have expected the walls to do more to slow bullets -- maybe not the lath and plaster one (a friend's home is built that way, and I saw how easily they tore those walls out during the bathroom remodel), but if you'd asked me before the episode I would have guessed that the overlapping fibers in fiberglass insulation would have done a lot to slow that round. I wasn't surprised at all by the results of the Hitman mockup house contest, though I hope Adam had some paintball armor under his costume. The actor seemed extraneous to the show, outside adding to the intro. Jamie very clearly was wearing paintball armor. Adam appeared to be wearing rather substantial leather gloves, which should have helped against the wrist shot he received, not sure about any other armor for him...perhaps they addressed that during the aftershow. |
|
|
|
Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 17, 2015 15:16:12 GMT
I assume that if I'd ever watched Breaking Bad the bits with the guest star would have made more sense? (I know they mentioned online that he was from that show.) It seemed like he was brought on to shoot the intro, and then they were looking for some reason to shoehorn him into the rest of the episode. Is the camera that shot the 73,000 FPS gunshot a new one for the show, or did they borrow it? It would have been nice if they'd made some reference to the bullets in a fire test, but the movie scene they were testing was different enough that I can understand why they didn't. I would have expected the walls to do more to slow bullets -- maybe not the lath and plaster one (a friend's home is built that way, and I saw how easily they tore those walls out during the bathroom remodel), but if you'd asked me before the episode I would have guessed that the overlapping fibers in fiberglass insulation would have done a lot to slow that round. I wasn't surprised at all by the results of the Hitman mockup house contest, though I hope Adam had some paintball armor under his costume. fiberglass batt insulation is very low density. I expected the lath and plaster to make more difference than the sheetrock, because the sheetrock is made from softer material than plaster. of course, the plaster is thinner than the sheetrock. I would have liked to see blalistics gel blocks behind the wall tests, just to see wound paths, as well, but the critical part was that the slugs still carried significant energy. They did give most of the exit velocities (about 20% less than entry), but there were a couple sections of wall they glanced over and gave almost no data outside 'The bullet went through...' |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Aug 17, 2015 22:22:14 GMT
I assume that if I'd ever watched Breaking Bad the bits with the guest star would have made more sense? (I know they mentioned online that he was from that show.) It seemed like he was brought on to shoot the intro, and then they were looking for some reason to shoehorn him into the rest of the episode. Yeah, that annoyed me as well. There was absolutely no point in him being there. He added nothing to any of the tests, or even the stories. I know Adam is a fan of Breaking Bad, but it has to stop now. Mythbusters is not a Breaking Bad spin-off. Enough already! |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Aug 17, 2015 22:28:59 GMT
I was actually surprised the steel junction box trapped the slug. I've hit a transmission oil pan with a .45 ACP and it punched a hole. of course, I was shooting ball and they were shooting JHP. I was just surprised they chose to go with JHP's instead of FMJ's. Hollow points are specifically designed to deform on impact to cause more damage and, as such, they fare worse when encountering obstacles (like body armor) than full metal jacket slugs. I'm guessing the reason why the slug didn't make it through the junction box is because it deformed on impact with the metal and a lot of its energy dissipated. Another thing I wondered about: If they were going full on with hitman movie tropes, why'd they use 9mm at all? Anyone who's ever seen a 90's or 00's hitman movie knows that movie hitmen prefer .22's, because they deform and splinter on impact, seldomly leaving anything behind for ballistics comparison. Actually, that's more or less a hitman myth in its own right, isn't it? |
|
|
|
Post by ironhold on Aug 18, 2015 2:28:05 GMT
I was actually surprised the steel junction box trapped the slug. I've hit a transmission oil pan with a .45 ACP and it punched a hole. of course, I was shooting ball and they were shooting JHP. I was just surprised they chose to go with JHP's instead of FMJ's. Hollow points are specifically designed to deform on impact to cause more damage and, as such, they fare worse when encountering obstacles (like body armor) than full metal jacket slugs. I'm guessing the reason why the slug didn't make it through the junction box is because it deformed on impact with the metal and a lot of its energy dissipated. Another thing I wondered about: If they were going full on with hitman movie tropes, why'd they use 9mm at all? Anyone who's ever seen a 90's or 00's hitman movie knows that movie hitmen prefer .22's, because they deform and splinter on impact, seldomly leaving anything behind for ballistics comparison. Actually, that's more or less a hitman myth in its own right, isn't it? The bit I heard was that a .22 would have enough force to penetrate the average skull but not enough to get back out, leaving the various bits to shred the victim's brain. |
|
|
|
Post by tom1b on Aug 18, 2015 7:17:26 GMT
People die every month from stray bullets coming through walls. Someone sitting on a couch watching TV gets hit from a bullet that came through a couple walls. An 18 month old kid jumping on a bed was killed from a bullet that passed through an exterior wall. That's why people argue what is the best weapon for home defense: rounds from a pistol & a rifle will penetrate several walls (interior and exterior). A shotgun with buckshot will stop at one. I can easily drive a nail through spray foam insulation so it's not stopping a bullet. I use 1/2" foam insulation as my backer board to hold my targets up. There was nothing to test in the "Shoot 'em Up" clip. There is no barrell to contain the explosion and no barrell to provide the rifling. No rifling means no spin so it is just a musket ball. Then there is the problem with the explosion being radial because it's not contained. You can add to it: heat doesn't transfer that fast. 2 seconds to heat the smokeless powder to 320°-360°F? It's not happening. I can't find an MSDS on anybody's primers, but lead azide has an auto ignition temperature of 662° and lead styphnate 626°F. I don't know where the "470°F" number came from. It was Episode 85 when they put rounds of ammunition in an oven. Their data and video showed the shell casings caused more damage than the bullets. What they should have shown was the damage done to a "real" hand by having 3-4 rounds of ammunition explode in your hand. And, if I can find the article, "hitmen" prefer silenced .22s because they are extremely quiet. A friend's grandfather was distraught over the death of his wife. Her uncle went to check on him and found him laying on the kitchen floor, bleeding. Grandpa tried to commit suicide with a .22 rifle: a shot to the head, a shot to the chest and a shot to the abdomen. She never mentioned if her grandpa ever attempted suicide again. Can't find the article, but here is a study: Criminal Use of Firearm SilencersConclusions "First, use of silencers are rare." 22 cal surgery"A man who suffered from severe obsessive-compulsive behavior apparently cured himself when he shot a .22-caliber bullet through the front of his brain while attempting suicide, it was reported Monday." |
|
|
|
Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 18, 2015 12:21:23 GMT
People die every month from stray bullets coming through walls. Someone sitting on a couch watching TV gets hit from a bullet that came through a couple walls. An 18 month old kid jumping on a bed was killed from a bullet that passed through an exterior wall. That's why people argue what is the best weapon for home defense: rounds from a pistol & a rifle will penetrate several walls (interior and exterior). A shotgun with buckshot will stop at one. I can easily drive a nail through spray foam insulation so it's not stopping a bullet. I use 1/2" foam insulation as my backer board to hold my targets up. There was nothing to test in the "Shoot 'em Up" clip. There is no barrell to contain the explosion and no barrell to provide the rifling. No rifling means no spin so it is just a musket ball. Then there is the problem with the explosion being radial because it's not contained. You can add to it: heat doesn't transfer that fast. 2 seconds to heat the smokeless powder to 320°-360°F? It's not happening. I can't find an MSDS on anybody's primers, but lead azide has an auto ignition temperature of 662° and lead styphnate 626°F. I don't know where the "470°F" number came from. It was Episode 85 when they put rounds of ammunition in an oven. Their data and video showed the shell casings caused more damage than the bullets. What they should have shown was the damage done to a "real" hand by having 3-4 rounds of ammunition explode in your hand. And, if I can find the article, "hitmen" prefer silenced .22s because they are extremely quiet. A friend's grandfather was distraught over the death of his wife. Her uncle went to check on him and found him laying on the kitchen floor, bleeding. Grandpa tried to commit suicide with a .22 rifle: a shot to the head, a shot to the chest and a shot to the abdomen. She never mentioned if her grandpa ever attempted suicide again. Can't find the article, but here is a study: Criminal Use of Firearm SilencersConclusions "First, use of silencers are rare." 22 cal surgery"A man who suffered from severe obsessive-compulsive behavior apparently cured himself when he shot a .22-caliber bullet through the front of his brain while attempting suicide, it was reported Monday." I think the biggest potential problem with using a 'real' hand (ballistics gel analog?) would be the fact that the 'flesh' would be melted before the bullets actually exploded considering the 0:43 seconds needed. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 18, 2015 14:19:58 GMT
the best way to have a "silent" gunshot is use of .22 caliber subsonic ammunition. with a longish gun barrel, it starts out pretty quiet.
|
|
|
|
Post by breesfan on Aug 18, 2015 22:50:16 GMT
I wonder if the DVR guide didn't show a new episode even though I did ask you guys. I didn't check to make sure it was recording or maybe it somehow got deleted magically and magically does not show up.
I liked the shooting parts. I didn't care for the Breaking Bad actor and thought he was a bit of a jerk and was not needed in the episode. Hopefully no more Breaking bad ideas.
I thought maybe they could have used carpets in the last shooting as well as regular floor, I thought.
Didn't care for the fire and bullets but didn't think it'd work.
EDIT: Wished they used different guns though.
|
|
