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Post by rmc on Oct 17, 2015 15:44:50 GMT
Apparently, there are substsnces that are repulsed instead of attracted to certain magnetic forces. In some sense, I have been trying to address that concern, Cybermortis. Instead of being drawn toward the electromagnet, I recently have been considering pushing away a quantity of dust as a sort of electromagnetic dust gun. However, the problem I ran accross last night is that this would produce a single impulse of forceful dust.
What I propose this time is still the dust gun, but having it rigged so that dust is "poured" into the magnetic field, producing a steady stream of ejected dust material, reproducing the constant force you seek.
This whole apparatus depends on the notion that we have discounted the force of thin Martian gases as anything important here, since everyone on the web insists it would only impart the force of an 11 mph wind. So, right off, we accept that this rig produces forces that are short the force of an 11 mph wind in getting Buster to move.
The problem I have in any rig determined to recreate Martian static friction forces (martian gravity) is that Buster needs to stand unaided (so we can see if he's blown over by the antenna launched solely by your proposed dust forces) and if he's perched such that he stands, most any tiny acceleration (other that those needed to reduce Earth's gravity) could knock him over off his feet early -- especially in the vomit comit, or a Trig calculated ramp angle, what-have-you as far as I can tell. In other words, I wonder if the vomit comit is so steady - besides, can a vacuum chamber big enough go in the vomit comit? Or are we needing to do this, instead, in a Mig 25 at 120,000 feet AGL, in order to reduce air pressure? Joking.
1. Wind or dust forces 2. Habitat seal 3. Pressure suit breach solved by dried blood. 4. Making water.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 17, 2015 16:19:57 GMT
You'd want to create a large plastic tank/vacuum chamber that you could not only bring up to the right pressure, but in which you could duplicate the Martian atmosphere. This would allow you to test the effects on both Mars and on Earth by altering the pressure and the nature of the atmosphere - such as seeing if a largely CO2 atmosphere has a different effect.
You'd want to look at simplicity in terms of the build, and the simplest and most practical way to create a dust storm in a box would be to use a fan that is blowing air through a pipe with the dust being fed through a hopper. This would not only mean that you could use 'dust' comparable to Martian dust, magnetic dust is not going to be the same size or density as the real thing. But it would also allow you to vary the force of the wind.
This kind of build would be quick and simple, even for a large tank, with the most difficult aspect being the design of the fan itself - which needs to be something that isn't going to overheat in a low pressure environment and/or not get clogged up by the dust. Would it be possible to create a fan blade that can be rotated by magnets outside the pipe? Does such a design exist?
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Post by rmc on Oct 17, 2015 18:02:58 GMT
NASA considered a fan, but was faced with the fact that fan could not spin fast enough for their vacuum chamber tests, duplicating dust storms and twisters at low pressures: linkIt's not just the force of dust or wind hitting the dish and then person, but also the fact that the person's traction with the ground resists movement, and this has to be looked at in deciding if there is plausible launch or not, in my opinion. THIS SORT OF IMPORTANT STATIC FRICTION FORCE IS IMPARTED BY GRAVITY. I totally agree that this has to be simple. But, I am obviously having great difficulty factoring in all reasonable issues. What NASA was forced to use was, like I originally suspected, a blast of gas. I was once in a high-altitude chamber where they pumped the out air of another compartment to (I don't know, to 20,000 feet?) and then opened a door between the two compartments and Whoosh! The air rushed out of my compartment, vapor appeared, it was quite forceful. Anyway, apparently, back at NASA they pumped out air for three days at the giant vacuum chamber and then, when they needed Martian wind, they opened a door to a pressurized chamber, allowing in a blast of wind, but calculated such as to result in no more than 1% atmosphere. I was merely trying to focus specifically on what force particles could make if flying in an array and going near 100 mph. Granted, that doesn't solve the problem itself of looking at the actual situation, but it could verify that dust alone, if raised to high enough velocity, could produce some of the effects declared by this film. Still, in my opinion, have to consider how much resisting traction a person would have in keeping himself from being launched by a supposedly fast-moving antenna. Earth's gravity produces too much resisting force, in my opinion, to properly test the right situation... Plus, the launching of dust by whatever means, also suffers from too much initial friction (traction), if done in Earth's gravity acceleration. The simplest way to test force of flying dust and get the right momentum resulting, is to just hang buster by wires in a smaller vacuum chamber, blast dust at the antenna (near Buster) using a jet of gas, thereby launching the antenna at "hanging-buster", and watch how much height is obtained. The Earth's gravity would still be there, but the resulting figures could be scaled back to factor in Martian gravity instead. Once the momentum is obtained for that, it could be further tested to see (in a different test) if this quantity of momentum would launch Buster far enough **in Martian gravity** by doing some sort of rig that drops appropriately, where buster is somehow hit with THAT momentum (it being recreated for this last test). If Buster launches more than twenty feet, then possibly plausible film scene.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 17, 2015 18:29:34 GMT
I think that adding a human into the mix isn't going to be testable as that would require a massive chamber and, as you noted, Mars gravity. Testing in scale in regards a human wouldn't really give viable information, as the mass and surface area are not going to scale that well. So it would probably be better just to look at the effect of the wind and dust on the dish, which should scale better and not be as affected by gravity (since its bolted into the ground not sitting on the ground).
I wonder if you could use the air cannon system they already have in the shop, rigging that through a pipe that has an un-powered fan near the end and a wide muzzle. The fan should help break up the dust so it doesn't come out as a solid mass, while a wide opening should diffuse the air so its likewise not a single 'bolt' of air.
That rig seems simple enough for MB, as plastic tubing and plastic sheets are things they should already have in the shop along with the air cannon. So they should be able to put together a large chamber in a day...Figure two days to design and build in total (and the design is something they could do over time rather than all at once) and a day to a day and a half of testing. So that would be an estimated two or three day build and test.
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Post by rmc on Oct 17, 2015 18:51:34 GMT
Could be. I added in the mass of a human analog because the regular way of obtaining bullet momentum involves launching the bullet into a larger mass of wood hung by wires. So, Buster becomes the block of wood and the bullet is 100 mph-going dust (by whatever means) AND the then-moving antenna.
Anyway, I was going to draw up a complicated diagram capable of being done in the super-large vacuum chamber, one where a platform falls and ends up landing in empty boxes to break the fall, but, I think you have the premise under far better control.
Did you see my list of three other possible things to look at above? Any of those need their own thread or can they be worked on here? (I actually think this one right now is just a free-form think tank, and will need rewriting and placed somewhere else once cleaned up. Sorry for that. I am a bit unorganized.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 17, 2015 22:47:01 GMT
I know the feeling. I'd think it would be better to try and keep all The Martian myths in one thread for now, as this is the one the researchers are likely to look at.
Maybe change the threads title so its less specific to one idea, that might help the researchers as they are not going to waste time looking for other threads when everything is here.
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Post by the light works on Oct 18, 2015 0:59:59 GMT
formulate them here, then transfer them to the finished ideas forum.
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 18, 2015 5:22:51 GMT
Seriously?... whats that in say PSI.... For some reason I thought it would be more. Ho Hum, you learn something new...
Well, on my "Specialist" subject, I have to ask about transport.
Some guy has done a huge amount of time on the ISS, but, is that the same as say the trip to Mars?... obviously nowhere close.
How long is the projected flight, and once there, just how will the "Trip" have affected the ability to walk about. Muscle wastage.
Having "been there" whilst off my feet after my initial Mo-Cycle accident, and then again after my Back injury, even at Earth's gravity, six months immobile, apart from a little house wandering, it took me a while to get back to match fitness. Six months sealed in a tin can at low-to-zero gravity with not so much as a good walk from the couch to the fridge?...
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 18, 2015 5:33:07 GMT
Follow my suggested design of a duct from the far end back to the fan, add in some fine gauze at 45% to the flow of air, as a filter, with a gravity return for the dust, in that the duct has a reduction in size after the filter, the dust can then either be collected in the duct in a side tank or returned to the main chamber.
(You could experiment with a cyclonic collection of dust, search home-brew shop vacs for sawdust for further details)
The fan then will have a "clean" air flow.
Obviously, if you decide to collect the blown dust, the system will have to be emptied after a time, and the dust returned to the main tank.
You can go without a filter if you use a large enough cylindrical fan blade.... "teflon" type blades wont collect the dust on them?...
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Post by the light works on Oct 18, 2015 14:05:51 GMT
Seriously?... whats that in say PSI.... For some reason I thought it would be more. Ho Hum, you learn something new... Well, on my "Specialist" subject, I have to ask about transport. Some guy has done a huge amount of time on the ISS, but, is that the same as say the trip to Mars?... obviously nowhere close. How long is the projected flight, and once there, just how will the "Trip" have affected the ability to walk about. Muscle wastage. Having "been there" whilst off my feet after my initial Mo-Cycle accident, and then again after my Back injury, even at Earth's gravity, six months immobile, apart from a little house wandering, it took me a while to get back to match fitness. Six months sealed in a tin can at low-to-zero gravity with not so much as a good walk from the couch to the fridge?... one atmosphere is 14.7 PSI, give or take a millimeter or two. when diving, you add one atmosphere for each 33 feet or so you descend. as for muscle wastage, it depends on the acceleration you are under. the classic "fast trip" assumes you are accelerating towards the planet, and then at the midpoint, you reverse thrust and accelerate in the opposite direction to match speed with the planet. I remember we has a discussion on this topic and whether we could practically maintain 1G of acceleration in transit, but I forget the conclusion. the other option is spin gravity, which we could maintain. I'd be inclined to think we would want to try to maintain twice Mars gravity, as that would theoretically render the travelers "superstrong" for a while to help them set up camp. on your fan design, if you really want to play with engineering, you could set up your ducting so the dust was dropped back into the supply hopper. And yes, it is theoretically possible to have your motor outside, driving the fan through a magnetic coupling. motor load is not really an issue - it is pretty easy to make a motor that can run indefinitely at minimum load. I might be inclined to make a BIG centrifugal fan, and direct drive the fan through the equivalent of a linear motor. but it might be easier to seal the motor in, or provide a through-the-wall heat sink system than to design it.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 18, 2015 20:39:40 GMT
formulate them here, then transfer them to the finished ideas forum. Yeap, that is how the finished ideas forum is meant to work since the researchers don't always have the time and inclination to go through several pages in order to find what they are looking for.
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 19, 2015 11:18:04 GMT
I have not seen the film yet, I am going tomorrow and they may have covered this in the plot.
But from what I understand the main character grows plants for food in the Martian soil mixed with human faeces would this really work? The Martian soil would lack the nitrogen fixing and decomposing bacteria that Earths soil naturally has in it and Human gut flora is specialised to live in the conditions found there and fill a particular niche. So would mixing this material with sterile Martian soil create a plant growing medium or could it potentially fail, the plants not having an ability to unlock the nutrients in the waste? I understand the experiment might be beyond what could be done and pose health issues but imagine several trays with plants in them growing in different mediums a control of normal soil, normal soil mixed with human waste, a Martian soil simulation, Martian soil mixed with Human waste etc. You could measure how well the plants grow in the various mediums and what happens to the Bactrial load in them.
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Post by the light works on Oct 19, 2015 13:39:46 GMT
I have not seen the film yet, I am going tomorrow and they may have covered this in the plot. But from what I understand the main character grows plants for food in the Martian soil mixed with human faeces would this really work? The Martian soil would lack the nitrogen fixing and decomposing bacteria that Earths soil naturally has in it and Human gut flora is specialised to live in the conditions found there and fill a particular niche. So would mixing this material with sterile Martian soil create a plant growing medium or could it potentially fail, the plants not having an ability to unlock the nutrients in the waste? I understand the experiment might be beyond what could be done and pose health issues but imagine several trays with plants in them growing in different mediums a control of normal soil, normal soil mixed with human waste, a Martian soil simulation, Martian soil mixed with Human waste etc. You could measure how well the plants grow in the various mediums and what happens to the Bactrial load in them. I have not seen the movie, but my first question was, how long is he going to be waiting for dinner?
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Post by ironhold on Oct 19, 2015 14:19:06 GMT
I have not seen the film yet, I am going tomorrow and they may have covered this in the plot. But from what I understand the main character grows plants for food in the Martian soil mixed with human faeces would this really work? The Martian soil would lack the nitrogen fixing and decomposing bacteria that Earths soil naturally has in it and Human gut flora is specialised to live in the conditions found there and fill a particular niche. So would mixing this material with sterile Martian soil create a plant growing medium or could it potentially fail, the plants not having an ability to unlock the nutrients in the waste? I understand the experiment might be beyond what could be done and pose health issues but imagine several trays with plants in them growing in different mediums a control of normal soil, normal soil mixed with human waste, a Martian soil simulation, Martian soil mixed with Human waste etc. You could measure how well the plants grow in the various mediums and what happens to the Bactrial load in them. I have not seen the movie, but my first question was, how long is he going to be waiting for dinner? In their hurry to leave, the crew abandoned all of their gear and personal effects. This included all of the pre-packaged rations. One of the first things he did after collecting himself was to crunch the numbers concerning these rations and how long they could last; after all, instead of six people consuming them, it was just him. The rations kept him going until such time as the first crop of potatoes could start, at which point he cut back on the rations he ate in favor of the potatoes he was growing.
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Post by the light works on Oct 19, 2015 14:27:32 GMT
I have not seen the movie, but my first question was, how long is he going to be waiting for dinner? In their hurry to leave, the crew abandoned all of their gear and personal effects. This included all of the pre-packaged rations. One of the first things he did after collecting himself was to crunch the numbers concerning these rations and how long they could last; after all, instead of six people consuming them, it was just him. The rations kept him going until such time as the first crop of potatoes could start, at which point he cut back on the rations he ate in favor of the potatoes he was growing. so who thought it was a good idea to ship whole potatoes to Mars? were they for an agricultural experiment or for food?
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Post by ironhold on Oct 19, 2015 14:31:56 GMT
In their hurry to leave, the crew abandoned all of their gear and personal effects. This included all of the pre-packaged rations. One of the first things he did after collecting himself was to crunch the numbers concerning these rations and how long they could last; after all, instead of six people consuming them, it was just him. The rations kept him going until such time as the first crop of potatoes could start, at which point he cut back on the rations he ate in favor of the potatoes he was growing. so who thought it was a good idea to ship whole potatoes to Mars? were they for an agricultural experiment or for food? When he was looking through the kitchen to see what rations were left, he came upon a bag of vacuum-sealed potatoes. In the film, someone took a permanent marker and wrote "Do not open until Thanksgiving" (or words to that effect) on the package. Given this, it would appear that the potatoes - which were above and beyond what was supposed to have been included in the normal rations - was intended as a treat of some sort that the group could have with a holiday dinner.
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Post by the light works on Oct 19, 2015 14:42:45 GMT
so who thought it was a good idea to ship whole potatoes to Mars? were they for an agricultural experiment or for food? When he was looking through the kitchen to see what rations were left, he came upon a bag of vacuum-sealed potatoes. In the film, someone took a permanent marker and wrote "Do not open until Thanksgiving" (or words to that effect) on the package. Given this, it would appear that the potatoes - which were above and beyond what was supposed to have been included in the normal rations - was intended as a treat of some sort that the group could have with a holiday dinner. Hm. that is, if not a believable reason to send them intact, at least a reason.
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Post by ironhold on Oct 19, 2015 15:07:13 GMT
The film at least depicted him as being rather surprised to discover their presence; he seemingly had no idea that the potatoes were even there.
Likely, only the person who brought them knew about them so as to "ensure" that they would remain around until the holiday.
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Post by the light works on Oct 19, 2015 15:18:51 GMT
The film at least depicted him as being rather surprised to discover their presence; he seemingly had no idea that the potatoes were even there. Likely, only the person who brought them knew about them so as to "ensure" that they would remain around until the holiday. knowing what I know about the rules for bringing personal belongings on space missions, I doubt they would have gone unnoticed on a real mission, but I am relieved that there was an explanation given.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 19, 2015 16:06:22 GMT
I have not seen the film yet, I am going tomorrow and they may have covered this in the plot. But from what I understand the main character grows plants for food in the Martian soil mixed with human faeces would this really work? The Martian soil would lack the nitrogen fixing and decomposing bacteria that Earths soil naturally has in it and Human gut flora is specialised to live in the conditions found there and fill a particular niche. So would mixing this material with sterile Martian soil create a plant growing medium or could it potentially fail, the plants not having an ability to unlock the nutrients in the waste? I understand the experiment might be beyond what could be done and pose health issues but imagine several trays with plants in them growing in different mediums a control of normal soil, normal soil mixed with human waste, a Martian soil simulation, Martian soil mixed with Human waste etc. You could measure how well the plants grow in the various mediums and what happens to the Bactrial load in them. There would not be a heath issue here, since they would not have to handle the poo themselves (or at least not without wearing protective gear) and would have no intention of eating the produce. Using human waste might, however, be nixed by Discovery on taste grounds. So they'd most likely have to look at finding animal waste that is as close to human poo as possible. That or look at creating their own poo, which might be possible by drying and sterilizing poo and then adding water and bacteria.
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