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Post by the light works on May 20, 2018 3:38:10 GMT
so at what point does it stop being an outlier and start being a trend? when it goes from averaging over one firearm discharge in a school per week for the year to averaging one firearm discharge in a school per week over a 28 year period? It will stop when we start to treat schools at the same security level we use for government buildings. How many nuts with guns have we had get into the White House in the past 28 years? How many in the Capitol building? I recently had to go to the Federal Building in downtown Chicago. I had to remove everything from my pockets, take off my shoes and belt, and then pass through a metal detector. When we have that level of security in our schools, the shootings will stop. But I guess our kids just aren't as important to protect as politicians and lawyers. many schools DO have metal detectors and an armed police presence. but as far as nuts getting into the white house, apparently over 20 got onto the grounds, and two got into the building, since Jimmy Carter's administration. www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/09/22/35-breaches-of-white-house-security-mapped/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5d2a5fe23a4bas far as our kids not being that important to us, you're right, they are quite obviously considered acceptable losses in our war to preserve status quo. |
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Post by GTCGreg on May 20, 2018 5:05:39 GMT
It is of my opinion that no child is an "acceptable loss", including those that haven't been born yet.
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Post by the light works on May 20, 2018 11:06:28 GMT
It is of my opinion that no child is an "acceptable loss", including those that haven't been born yet. the NRA doesn't seem to share that opinion. and some radicalized branches of the church seem to place all their priority on the unconceived ones. |
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Post by GTCGreg on May 20, 2018 13:17:12 GMT
We didn't elect the NRA to keep the country safe and the first amendment gives you the right to choose any church you wish. If you don't believe in what they preach, you should have no problem finding one that does.
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Post by the light works on May 20, 2018 13:55:26 GMT
We didn't elect the NRA to keep the country safe and the first amendment gives you the right to choose any church you wish. If you don't believe in what they preach, you should have no problem finding one that does. and yet, the NRA and the teavangelical churches still think they can dictate to the rest of the country. |
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Post by GTCGreg on May 20, 2018 14:13:34 GMT
We didn't elect the NRA to keep the country safe and the first amendment gives you the right to choose any church you wish. If you don't believe in what they preach, you should have no problem finding one that does. and yet, the NRA and the teavangelical churches still think they can dictate to the rest of the country. While I try to keep an open mind, I allow neither to affect my thinking. I suspect you also don't let them affect yours. |
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Post by kharnynb on May 20, 2018 15:29:53 GMT
my problem, also in finland with some of the more extreme lutheran politicians, is that they keep trying to make/keep laws that discriminate against gays, prevent women from having abortions, even if they are not in their church.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 20, 2018 16:32:10 GMT
my problem, also in finland with some of the more extreme lutheran politicians, is that they keep trying to make/keep laws that discriminate against gays, prevent women from having abortions, even if they are not in their church. In the U.S. even the most extreme Lutherans are mild compared to some of our churches. While I don't believe our laws should reflect the views of any one religion, I also don't believe that any religion should not be allowed to express their views. |
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Post by the light works on May 20, 2018 23:19:01 GMT
my problem, also in finland with some of the more extreme lutheran politicians, is that they keep trying to make/keep laws that discriminate against gays, prevent women from having abortions, even if they are not in their church. In the U.S. even the most extreme Lutherans are mild compared to some of our churches. While I don't believe our laws should reflect the views of any one religion, I also don't believe that any religion should not be allowed to express their views. right. here, lutherans are considered catholic lite. |
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Post by silverdragon on May 21, 2018 6:22:45 GMT
"No child is an acceptable loss"
Couple of weeks ago, I posted about a "patch" being repaired in our lane outside the house, and local kids trying to dig it out again?.
Well I aint the only one with that problem.
Someone did a whole drive laying from kerb to house in brick, and because they had a lowered kerb put in, they had to re-tarmac the pavement {$idewalk} with the new shape, which was done in that "Cold set" stuff?...
6hrs after they finished, late at night, they look out the front, and the local "wildlife" of neighbourhood kids is digging up big lumps of it and throwing it around as dirty snowballs.
Ask them about "acceptable loss"?..
On a more serious note
There should be no acceptable in any loss where innocent non combatant kids are involved.
Forget some war in outer bongistan landlocked island, where they employ 8 yr olds to patrol the compounds fully armed who then delight in taking pot-shots at pigeons, forget the "Freedom fighters" of some third world country where they arm the under 15's and tell them "You in the army now boy", this is the First world problem of a BLOODY SCHOOL, and the only acceptable loss on a school is the pencil case dropped in the playground at lunch.
Last year, about this time, there was the Manchester arena bombing, Manchester lost its sh[cr@p] about that, the whole family of Manchester is still limping over that kicking, we took it personally, and there is still a healthy trade in boot stickers of a Bee that show solidarity against terrorism, this is something that has altered Manchester "for life", in that we came together and are now a closer community, because we now watch out more for each other.
We have not accepted that as a acceptable loss, because it was never and will never, ever be acceptable.
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Post by Lokifan on May 21, 2018 14:04:21 GMT
It is of my opinion that no child is an "acceptable loss", including those that haven't been born yet. the NRA doesn't seem to share that opinion. and some radicalized branches of the church seem to place all their priority on the unconceived ones. Show us where the NRA talks about children being an "acceptable loss" or retract that as the lie that it is. It's a popular strawman argument, an appeal to the emotions that has no basis in reality. The truth in the matter is that anyone with an ounce of decency finds the murder of a child a terrible loss, and strives to avoid such things. Should schools be safe places? Of course, and people are finally starting to think about hardening these soft targets against the lunatics that pop up. Unfortunately, many somehow freak out when the NRA (and others) talk about making it harder to get access to children. They somehow think it's better to leave the kids in idyllic "gun-free" zones that simply don't work when a person doesn't care about the law. You can pass every restriction you want, but the lunatics are still out there--hence the mass murders that occur outside the US in societies that have stricter gun control than the US (see the Brevik incident in Norway, or the recent one in Australia mentioned previously). It's also of the same type as those who think that teaching men not to rape is all that is necessary to end sexual assault forever--again, as if any rational human isn't aware that rape is a Bad Thing. Instead of chasing that kind of utopian dream, here are some simple ways to stop school shooters relatively cheaply and easily: 7 Simple Steps to Eliminate School Shootings OvernightThese steps could be implemented tomorrow. Rather than try to wildly accuse 5 million average Americans that they want dead kids (as fun as some find that hatred to be), why not try something that has a demonstrated ability to work? I've visited a private Jewish school that took at least some of the advice, and I can say that I didn't feel like I was being oppressed--I was just consciously aware that these people wanted a safe environment for their kids, and were prepared to take real action, instead of pretty words that meant nothing. |
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2018 15:34:09 GMT
the NRA doesn't seem to share that opinion. and some radicalized branches of the church seem to place all their priority on the unconceived ones. Show us where the NRA talks about children being an "acceptable loss" or retract that as the lie that it is. It's a popular strawman argument, an appeal to the emotions that has no basis in reality. The truth in the matter is that anyone with an ounce of decency finds the murder of a child a terrible loss, and strives to avoid such things. Should schools be safe places? Of course, and people are finally starting to think about hardening these soft targets against the lunatics that pop up. Unfortunately, many somehow freak out when the NRA (and others) talk about making it harder to get access to children. They somehow think it's better to leave the kids in idyllic "gun-free" zones that simply don't work when a person doesn't care about the law. You can pass every restriction you want, but the lunatics are still out there--hence the mass murders that occur outside the US in societies that have stricter gun control than the US (see the Brevik incident in Norway, or the recent one in Australia mentioned previously). It's also of the same type as those who think that teaching men not to rape is all that is necessary to end sexual assault forever--again, as if any rational human isn't aware that rape is a Bad Thing. Instead of chasing that kind of utopian dream, here are some simple ways to stop school shooters relatively cheaply and easily: 7 Simple Steps to Eliminate School Shootings OvernightThese steps could be implemented tomorrow. Rather than try to wildly accuse 5 million average Americans that they want dead kids (as fun as some find that hatred to be), why not try something that has a demonstrated ability to work? I've visited a private Jewish school that took at least some of the advice, and I can say that I didn't feel like I was being oppressed--I was just consciously aware that these people wanted a safe environment for their kids, and were prepared to take real action, instead of pretty words that meant nothing. #1: so create a gun free zone? what is it the NRA says about gun free zones? #2: I agree with this one. how many of our recent mass shootings happened because people had access to guns when they wouldn't have if gun laws were enforced? #3: in all recent school shootings, active shooter drills were creditited with reducing the number of casualties. #4: even the author admitted all they did was reduce the effectiveness of the shooter. #5: how is that school resource officer in Texas doing in the hospital? #6: how is the student hit with shrapnel when the armed teacher accidentally discharged his pistol in class doing? #7: when half the school shooters finish their rampage by shooting themselves, getting killed doesn't seem to me like much of a deterrent. www.politico.com/story/2018/03/01/school-shootings-security-guns-431424addendum: and re acceptable losses: www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-bill-o-reilly-calls-mass-shootings-the-1506980448-htmlstory.html |
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Post by GTCGreg on May 21, 2018 19:18:51 GMT
While I agree that the "seven steps" may reduce school shooting, these just treating the symptoms and do nothing to address the root cause.
Gun control laws have increased dramatically in the past 30 years, so have school shootings. So why expect even more gun control laws to reduce shootings?
Maybe we need to start enforcing the laws we have including locking up people that are shown to be a menace to society instead of treating these people as some kind of victim. If one in one-thousand can't function in society, how is that society's fault? Some nut job goes off on a killing rampage and we blame the guns. Let's start putting the blame where it belongs.
Something has obviously changed in the past 30 years to create this school shooting problem. Since it's not easier availability of guns, what is it? Could it be the special snowflake syndrome? Maybe Hollywood's obsession with violent movies showing that revenge is sweet and justifiable. I personally believe that all the violent shoot-em-up computer games aren't helping in spite of what the gaming industry lobbyists tell us.
As much as some hate the NRA, abolishing it would increase gun deaths. The NRA offers many gun safety programs. I don't know of a single "here's how to kill" program that they offer in spite of what some left-wing lunatics will tell you. In fact, I'm so sick of seeing all these wackos running around with their hair on fire pointing at the NRA as the problem that I've actually considered joining the NRA just as a show of support.
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Post by the light works on May 22, 2018 5:15:16 GMT
While I agree that the "seven steps" may reduce school shooting, these just treating the symptoms and do nothing to address the root cause. Gun control laws have increased dramatically in the past 30 years, so have school shootings. So why expect even more gun control laws to reduce shootings? Maybe we need to start enforcing the laws we have including locking up people that are shown to be a menace to society instead of treating these people as some kind of victim. If one in one-thousand can't function in society, how is that society's fault? Some nut job goes off on a killing rampage and we blame the guns. Let's start putting the blame where it belongs. Something has obviously changed in the past 30 years to create this school shooting problem. Since it's not easier availability of guns, what is it? Could it be the special snowflake syndrome? Maybe Hollywood's obsession with violent movies showing that revenge is sweet and justifiable. I personally believe that all the violent shoot-em-up computer games aren't helping in spite of what the gaming industry lobbyists tell us. As much as some hate the NRA, abolishing it would increase gun deaths. The NRA offers many gun safety programs. I don't know of a single "here's how to kill" program that they offer in spite of what some left-wing lunatics will tell you. In fact, I'm so sick of seeing all these wackos running around with their hair on fire pointing at the NRA as the problem that I've actually considered joining the NRA just as a show of support. I would love to see the NRA go back to being a gun safety organization and encourage safe, responsible gun ownership. I just don't have any expectation they will do so. |
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Post by silverdragon on May 22, 2018 10:04:45 GMT
The last 30 yrs and increase of [xyz].
In any subject, not just this one.
In the last 30 yrs cars have become more accessible to all.
There has been a massive increase in laws on car safety at the same time.
There has been a massive increase of car Crime alongside that.
One is not at all dependant on the other.
The additional laws are there because of the mass increase of numbers of cars on the streets.
Those laws are not in any way encouraging car crime, they are however helping to keep the numbers of KSI down.
Its exactly the same with Gun crime in the USofA ?.
In the same way that "there will always be" those who abuse the law, there will always be those that will try to take weapons to schools.
You have the laws that need updating a little, but even IF you go for full mandatory testing and licensing, there will always be the one who has access to unregistered illegal firearms.
How to stop them getting into anywhere, is exactly the same as stopping them getting into an airport, you need that level of security or even higher.
So the final answer to school shootings will only be when you have the latest technology to detect the firearms at the school perimeter.
That is what is needed NOW.....
In the future, better educational standards to detect the ones liable to be a problem and deal with them are needed.
It scares me to know that many of these assailants are already on a "watch" list.
It shouldnt be a "watch" list, it should be a "Take action".....
I agree with Greg on what he says about that subject, we NEED to start admitting that some people are so un-hinged that they are not safe in society, and need removal and treatment and prohibition from being let out alone.
And yet I am sitting here trying my hardest not not say that they are "Mental"?.
I cannot suggest we need mental hospitals and Loony bins?.. because we have loonies about on the streets, and by saying that I may offend some people with mental health issues?.
Look folks, I have suffered with depression, because of my disabilities, and because of the family arguments around at the time of my fathers death.
This isnt anything about those people at all that have minor heath issues, it isnt about the people with Downs syndrome, its not about epileptic, nor is it about the people that even have a slight issue with multiple personalities.
This is about the ones who reject society reject rules reject help and just wanna go out and kill people "because", the anarchist who are not Ill, this isnt an illness, its not a behavioural problem, its a mal formed issue that they want to reject the world around them, and, we have to identify those people, and reject their needs, for the safety of others.
Can we help them?.
Probably not, they will reject your help.
Can we help in any way?.
Yes, prohibit them from entering society unless they have a "handler" who is able to control them.
Some people shouldnt be let out on their own, we need to accept this.
When we do and stop treating them as special snowflakes and treating them all the same, perhaps we have a starting point.
Remember, this is an emotional time right here, its one year ago that we had that Manchester Bomb at an Ariana Grande[sp?] concert here in Manchester, that has affected me, this is my home town, they were Kids, what had they done wrong?.
As for the people that did that bombing, those that helped him, I have no compassion for them at all.
For all I care, they can rot in a concrete cell for the rest of their life.I will NOT accept that they can be "rehabilitated", I believe they are a risk to the public.
They need locking up. For life. No parole. EVER.
Again, this is an emotional subject for me, this is my home town, we defend its safety?.
I may not know them kids personally, but Manchester is one big 'family', kick one, we all limp.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 22, 2018 12:28:44 GMT
While I agree that the "seven steps" may reduce school shooting, these just treating the symptoms and do nothing to address the root cause. Gun control laws have increased dramatically in the past 30 years, so have school shootings. So why expect even more gun control laws to reduce shootings? Maybe we need to start enforcing the laws we have including locking up people that are shown to be a menace to society instead of treating these people as some kind of victim. If one in one-thousand can't function in society, how is that society's fault? Some nut job goes off on a killing rampage and we blame the guns. Let's start putting the blame where it belongs. Something has obviously changed in the past 30 years to create this school shooting problem. Since it's not easier availability of guns, what is it? Could it be the special snowflake syndrome? Maybe Hollywood's obsession with violent movies showing that revenge is sweet and justifiable. I personally believe that all the violent shoot-em-up computer games aren't helping in spite of what the gaming industry lobbyists tell us. As much as some hate the NRA, abolishing it would increase gun deaths. The NRA offers many gun safety programs. I don't know of a single "here's how to kill" program that they offer in spite of what some left-wing lunatics will tell you. In fact, I'm so sick of seeing all these wackos running around with their hair on fire pointing at the NRA as the problem that I've actually considered joining the NRA just as a show of support. I would love to see the NRA go back to being a gun safety organization and encourage safe, responsible gun ownership. I just don't have any expectation they will do so. I agree that the NRA's mission has come somewhat out of focus, but to blame them for the school shootings is also out of focus. It's easy to use them as a scapegoat, but it does nothing to solve the real problem. |
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Post by the light works on May 22, 2018 14:21:08 GMT
I would love to see the NRA go back to being a gun safety organization and encourage safe, responsible gun ownership. I just don't have any expectation they will do so. I agree that the NRA's mission has come somewhat out of focus, but to blame them for the school shootings is also out of focus. It's easy to use them as a scapegoat, but it does nothing to solve the real problem. you are aware, of course, that there are NRA members who are still clamoring for the abolishment of gun free zones, and that the solution the NRA has recommended for stopping school shootings is to put enough guns into schools, that you can't tell the difference between the good guy and the bad guy until the shooting starts. the real problem: there are people who have the idea that the solution to their problems is to kill a bunch of people. those people can easily get hold of guns to do it with. those people and their guns can blend into the crowd of non-murderous people with guns until they decide to start the killing. the NRA is unwilling to allow any legislation that makes it harder for murderous people to get hold of guns which are designed for killing large numbers of people. the NRA opposes the idea of making it harder for murderous people to blend in with the crowd by encouraging the crowd to not parade guns around. and for a bonus, the NRA rushes to excuse anyone who fails to keep their gun in such a manner it prevents an accidental discharge. it's kind of like how the neighbors of anyone who does something atrocious is quick to excuse them. "he was such a nice guy I don't know what happened." |
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Post by ironhold on May 22, 2018 15:52:27 GMT
it's kind of like how the neighbors of anyone who does something atrocious is quick to excuse them. "he was such a nice guy I don't know what happened." Nowadays, half the time something happens the neighbor goes "Yeah; we knew something was wrong with _____, but we couldn't get anyone to believe us" or something to that effect. In this case, the same day the shooting took place, a student who knew the shooter was talking with a local television station about how even the coaches were bullying the shooter and that he figured something must have finally snapped. |
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Post by the light works on May 22, 2018 16:41:58 GMT
it's kind of like how the neighbors of anyone who does something atrocious is quick to excuse them. "he was such a nice guy I don't know what happened." Nowadays, half the time something happens the neighbor goes "Yeah; we knew something was wrong with _____, but we couldn't get anyone to believe us" or something to that effect. In this case, the same day the shooting took place, a student who knew the shooter was talking with a local television station about how even the coaches were bullying the shooter and that he figured something must have finally snapped. and the mother of victim number one was talking with the local television station about how the shooter had been hitting on her daughter for over a month and the daughter finally told him off in public - in the class he started his shooting spree in. the friends of the daughter corroborated the story. "The father of the teenager accused of killing 10 people at Santa Fe High School in Texas says his son was a "good boy," and he believes bullying drove him to perpetrate last week's deadly rampage. " www.cnn.com/2018/05/22/us/texas-santa-fe-school-shooting/index.htmlwww.latimes.com/nation/la-na-texas-shooter-20180519-story.html |
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Post by GTCGreg on May 22, 2018 19:14:04 GMT
I agree that the NRA's mission has come somewhat out of focus, but to blame them for the school shootings is also out of focus. It's easy to use them as a scapegoat, but it does nothing to solve the real problem. you are aware, of course, that there are NRA members who are still clamoring for the abolishment of gun free zones, and that the solution the NRA has recommended for stopping school shootings is to put enough guns into schools, that you can't tell the difference between the good guy and the bad guy until the shooting starts. the real problem: there are people who have the idea that the solution to their problems is to kill a bunch of people. those people can easily get hold of guns to do it with. those people and their guns can blend into the crowd of non-murderous people with guns until they decide to start the killing. the NRA is unwilling to allow any legislation that makes it harder for murderous people to get hold of guns which are designed for killing large numbers of people. the NRA opposes the idea of making it harder for murderous people to blend in with the crowd by encouraging the crowd to not parade guns around. and for a bonus, the NRA rushes to excuse anyone who fails to keep their gun in such a manner it prevents an accidental discharge. it's kind of like how the neighbors of anyone who does something atrocious is quick to excuse them. "he was such a nice guy I don't know what happened." I am not aware of any school shooter being an NRA member, nor am I aware of any school shooter being mistaken for a "good guy with a gun." I am also not aware of any NRA policy to make it easier for murderous people to get hold of a gun. Any other "facts" you wish to make up? |
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