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Post by silverdragon on Dec 20, 2017 10:23:29 GMT
Research on brakes, and new braking systems, and the art of dropping a magnet down a copper tube... Try this yourself, drop a small magnet down a copper pipe, it slows down, because it creates a magnetic field?. This CAN be used by use of electromagnets passing a copper plate, switch the magnets on, you get a braking effect, and no heat generated. It basically the same as using an electric engine to create back-emf braking, but, not as heavy?. They are now working on a mechanical system that changes the distance between copper plate and permanent magnets, but all this is new technology, so still a work in progress, but as for how effective it is, allaboutmagnets.wikispaces.com/How+does+the+Giant+Drop+use+magnets%3FThis ride's braking is ALL "Eddy current" braking.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 20, 2017 10:25:50 GMT
Added bonus of eddy current braking, if used on a vehicle, if the wheel nuts come loose, and your on steel rims, the wheels dont fall off until you come to a stop?. Unexpected results, you may feel your fillings tingling, and dont wear braces whilst driving?.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 20, 2017 13:14:36 GMT
You are correct on dynamic braking except for one point. Heat is still created. When you drop the magnet down the copper tube, electrical current is generated in the copper. When stopping heavy loads, this eddy current can be substantial and creates heat from I2R losses in the copper. In fact, it would be exactly the same amount of heat you would get from friction breaking.
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Post by the light works on Dec 20, 2017 14:44:10 GMT
Added bonus of eddy current braking, if used on a vehicle, if the wheel nuts come loose, and your on steel rims, the wheels dont fall off until you come to a stop?. Unexpected results, you may feel your fillings tingling, and dont wear braces whilst driving?. I've ridden roller coasters that use eddy current braking. they just have a set of copper blades that stick up from the track, and the roller coaster has a set of permanent magnets that pass the blades from what I understand, they brake the coaster more consistently than friction mechanisms.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 21, 2017 9:13:09 GMT
You are correct on dynamic braking except for one point. Heat is still created. When you drop the magnet down the copper tube, electrical current is generated in the copper. When stopping heavy loads, this eddy current can be substantial and creates heat from I 2R losses in the copper. In fact, it would be exactly the same amount of heat you would get from friction breaking. Yes but not in the same place. Large copper "fin" is in its self a heatsink, and the heat is not on the surface of a friction pad that resists heat transfer, and in that friction, wears down at the same time, so is easier to dissipate than a heavy brake drum and friction pad set, or even disk. From what I can find, the heat is dissipated a hell of a lot easier, yes they have to find a way of creating a heatsink that can cool, but because of the lack of friction, the brakes last longer under heavy braking than traditional brakes, and you dont get brake fade. This is why the interest from heavy haul...
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 21, 2017 14:43:23 GMT
You are correct on dynamic braking except for one point. Heat is still created. When you drop the magnet down the copper tube, electrical current is generated in the copper. When stopping heavy loads, this eddy current can be substantial and creates heat from I 2R losses in the copper. In fact, it would be exactly the same amount of heat you would get from friction breaking. Yes but not in the same place. Large copper "fin" is in its self a heatsink, and the heat is not on the surface of a friction pad that resists heat transfer, and in that friction, wears down at the same time, so is easier to dissipate than a heavy brake drum and friction pad set, or even disk. From what I can find, the heat is dissipated a hell of a lot easier, yes they have to find a way of creating a heatsink that can cool, but because of the lack of friction, the brakes last longer under heavy braking than traditional brakes, and you dont get brake fade. This is why the interest from heavy haul... The biggest obstetrical with electric dynamic breaking is how to control it. On a drop ride or roller coaster, the breaking force of the magnetic part of the system is preset and the same on every cycle. Precise control is still done with a friction breaking system. When using it on a vehicle, you have to be able to turn it on and off and control the amount of breaking needed at any given time. That means you either have to use electromagnets or some type of mechanical linkage to move the parts of the system to magnetically engage them. Of course, this is probably no more complicated than friction breaking where you have pads and calipers and pistons and all.
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2017 14:49:59 GMT
You are correct on dynamic braking except for one point. Heat is still created. When you drop the magnet down the copper tube, electrical current is generated in the copper. When stopping heavy loads, this eddy current can be substantial and creates heat from I 2R losses in the copper. In fact, it would be exactly the same amount of heat you would get from friction breaking. Yes but not in the same place. Large copper "fin" is in its self a heatsink, and the heat is not on the surface of a friction pad that resists heat transfer, and in that friction, wears down at the same time, so is easier to dissipate than a heavy brake drum and friction pad set, or even disk. From what I can find, the heat is dissipated a hell of a lot easier, yes they have to find a way of creating a heatsink that can cool, but because of the lack of friction, the brakes last longer under heavy braking than traditional brakes, and you dont get brake fade. This is why the interest from heavy haul... I would love to find a way to incorporate this technology into long downgrades on either railroads or freeways. build a system that generates power as it prevents vehicles from running away on the downgrade. it would take a lot of engineering to make it work, but it is an interesting thought.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 21, 2017 15:19:30 GMT
Yes but not in the same place. Large copper "fin" is in its self a heatsink, and the heat is not on the surface of a friction pad that resists heat transfer, and in that friction, wears down at the same time, so is easier to dissipate than a heavy brake drum and friction pad set, or even disk. From what I can find, the heat is dissipated a hell of a lot easier, yes they have to find a way of creating a heatsink that can cool, but because of the lack of friction, the brakes last longer under heavy braking than traditional brakes, and you dont get brake fade. This is why the interest from heavy haul... I would love to find a way to incorporate this technology into long downgrades on either railroads or freeways. build a system that generates power as it prevents vehicles from running away on the downgrade. it would take a lot of engineering to make it work, but it is an interesting thought. The cable cars in San Fransisco (built in 1873) use such a system. As the cars go down the hills, they stay coupled to the same cable that is pulling other cars up the hills. Some electric powered locomotives can also dump electrical power from regenerative breaking back into the overhead wires when going down hill. Most Hybrid cars also use regenerative breaking and dump the breaking energy back into the batteries. Just to clerify terminology. Dynamic breaking is when the breaking energy is just dissipated as heat and regenerative breaking is when that energy is stored for future use or dumped back into the grid for other vehicles to use. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2017 15:40:50 GMT
I would love to find a way to incorporate this technology into long downgrades on either railroads or freeways. build a system that generates power as it prevents vehicles from running away on the downgrade. it would take a lot of engineering to make it work, but it is an interesting thought. The cable cars in San Fransisco (built in 1873) use such a system. As the cars go down the hills, they stay coupled to the same cable that is pulling other cars up the hills. Some electric powered locomotives can also dump electrical power from regenerative breaking back into the overhead wires when going down hill. Most Hybrid cars also use regenerative breaking and dump the breaking energy back into the batteries. Just to clerify terminology. Dynamic breaking is when the breaking energy is just dissipated as heat and regenerative breaking is when that energy is stored for future use or dumped back into the grid for other vehicles to use. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking never noticed an electric locomotive going down donner pass on the freeway or on the rails... and not many cable cars around there, either. haven't noticed any going over the hill by Butte, either. lot of trucks riding the jake, though.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 21, 2017 16:46:56 GMT
The cable cars in San Fransisco (built in 1873) use such a system. As the cars go down the hills, they stay coupled to the same cable that is pulling other cars up the hills. Some electric powered locomotives can also dump electrical power from regenerative breaking back into the overhead wires when going down hill. Most Hybrid cars also use regenerative breaking and dump the breaking energy back into the batteries. Just to clerify terminology. Dynamic breaking is when the breaking energy is just dissipated as heat and regenerative breaking is when that energy is stored for future use or dumped back into the grid for other vehicles to use. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_braking never noticed an electric locomotive going down donner pass on the freeway or on the rails... and not many cable cars around there, either. haven't noticed any going over the hill by Butte, either. lot of trucks riding the jake, though. How many hybrid cars have you seen? And as far as trucks go, the Tesla semi will have regenerative breaking.
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Post by the light works on Dec 22, 2017 3:59:54 GMT
never noticed an electric locomotive going down donner pass on the freeway or on the rails... and not many cable cars around there, either. haven't noticed any going over the hill by Butte, either. lot of trucks riding the jake, though. How many hybrid cars have you seen? And as far as trucks go, the Tesla semi will have regenerative breaking. not every trucker drives a Tesla.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 22, 2017 6:26:39 GMT
How many hybrid cars have you seen? And as far as trucks go, the Tesla semi will have regenerative breaking. not every trucker drives a Tesla. At this point, no trucker drives a Tesla.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 22, 2017 7:50:24 GMT
not every trucker drives a Tesla. At this point, no trucker drives a Tesla. And judging by the price he will be charging, no trucker will be driving a Tesla at that point either?. The idea around back-EMF braking, which in truth, I have already on a Monster truck radio Control vehicle, is bloody good, except its expensive, and it weighs a few tons. The problem now is that the full load can weigh no more than combined 44 tons. Either they combine an extra axle and go for an axle weight limit, or, the full load on a "semi-" or Artic, will be compromised by heavy battery configuration. Dont get me wrong at all, I am no longer a doom-sayer in Electric vehicle and will never be saying this will never happen, because I can see it happening soon, its just, not that soon, because they aint finished twiddling with it yet. When, not if, but when, when they can replace a 900 horsepower diesel and tank full of fuel, with a 900 horse electrical engine with 500 mile battery that has a 45min recharge time to 80%, and can do that 500mile in Winter with the Heating up full retaining a 20degC inside in a Minus 5 outside, and then repeat with a 20degC inside in a 40degree outside during summer, whilst towing a "refer" van, refrigerated, and also plan on at least 100 mile of those 500 mile in maximum walking pace traffic, do all that, be able to keep a refer refrigerated overnight on a long haul run if there is no hookup, between charges, and bring all that in at an affordable price or price plan over say 5 yrs that matches an average running cost of a diesel, than we have progress. 900 horse diesel, it has to be that option, because thats whats expected of todays heavy haul. 45min recharge, thats the legal requirement on a lunch break, plug the tractor in and go get lunch, full charge when you finish, is a good plan to attract Truck drivers to your Truck stop during the day. 5 yr payment plan, to make it affordable, if you price out what it costs in Diesel to run a HGV for 5 yrs, and do a lease plan that rents out or Hire purchases a vehicle that makes it economical to do that over a 5 yr plan, you may have a gold mine, if it works out cheaper to run Electric than it does to run a diesel over that period. But at the moment, the difference between a Diesel truck and a Tesla for initial purchase.... aint nobody got the brass to take that risk?.
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Post by the light works on Dec 22, 2017 15:30:11 GMT
At this point, no trucker drives a Tesla. And judging by the price he will be charging, no trucker will be driving a Tesla at that point either?. The idea around back-EMF braking, which in truth, I have already on a Monster truck radio Control vehicle, is bloody good, except its expensive, and it weighs a few tons. The problem now is that the full load can weigh no more than combined 44 tons. Either they combine an extra axle and go for an axle weight limit, or, the full load on a "semi-" or Artic, will be compromised by heavy battery configuration. Dont get me wrong at all, I am no longer a doom-sayer in Electric vehicle and will never be saying this will never happen, because I can see it happening soon, its just, not that soon, because they aint finished twiddling with it yet. When, not if, but when, when they can replace a 900 horsepower diesel and tank full of fuel, with a 900 horse electrical engine with 500 mile battery that has a 45min recharge time to 80%, and can do that 500mile in Winter with the Heating up full retaining a 20degC inside in a Minus 5 outside, and then repeat with a 20degC inside in a 40degree outside during summer, whilst towing a "refer" van, refrigerated, and also plan on at least 100 mile of those 500 mile in maximum walking pace traffic, do all that, be able to keep a refer refrigerated overnight on a long haul run if there is no hookup, between charges, and bring all that in at an affordable price or price plan over say 5 yrs that matches an average running cost of a diesel, than we have progress. 900 horse diesel, it has to be that option, because thats whats expected of todays heavy haul. 45min recharge, thats the legal requirement on a lunch break, plug the tractor in and go get lunch, full charge when you finish, is a good plan to attract Truck drivers to your Truck stop during the day. 5 yr payment plan, to make it affordable, if you price out what it costs in Diesel to run a HGV for 5 yrs, and do a lease plan that rents out or Hire purchases a vehicle that makes it economical to do that over a 5 yr plan, you may have a gold mine, if it works out cheaper to run Electric than it does to run a diesel over that period. But at the moment, the difference between a Diesel truck and a Tesla for initial purchase.... aint nobody got the brass to take that risk?. and if you can figure out a way to create a field that acts on the steel frame of the truck and causes a counter EMF against it, or a lightweight assembly you bolt onto the bottom of the frame - and provides a set amount of resistance to motion against it, like the magnet falling through the copper tube, then install that on long downgrades, connected into the power grid, to utilize the generated electricity for more than just generating waste heat; how many truckers wouldn't take advantage of such a system to reduce wear on their truck? especially if any hardware to add to the truck came free-of-charge? (subsidized by the sale of the power generated) the engineering challenge is making it so it is a simple modification at most on the truck, and that the braking force is appropriate to the grade. - this may require an onboard control, or it may be able to be passive.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 29, 2017 10:07:58 GMT
Just for consideration. In Winter, sudden road closures, whilst you are on them, may be of concern, especially f you are stuck for several hours. Keep that in mind when thinking "I have enough fuel for today".... Do you really?. How many hours will half-a-tank of fuel keep you warm for if stranded in the snow.
Hmmm... now there is a thing... is this worth putting as a myth to be tested to see how much fuel is used per hour keeping a stranded car warm enough to survive in?.. how would you propose that idea to the MB's?..
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Post by the light works on Dec 29, 2017 15:19:13 GMT
Just for consideration. In Winter, sudden road closures, whilst you are on them, may be of concern, especially f you are stuck for several hours. Keep that in mind when thinking "I have enough fuel for today".... Do you really?. How many hours will half-a-tank of fuel keep you warm for if stranded in the snow. Hmmm... now there is a thing... is this worth putting as a myth to be tested to see how much fuel is used per hour keeping a stranded car warm enough to survive in?.. how would you propose that idea to the MB's?.. in my truck, about an hour before the engine cools off too much to keep the cab warm. but at the road closure mentioned, it took barely a quarter tank to keep the cab warm all night. because yes, since they were saying vehicles with four wheel drive or chains were allowed to go through, we didn't make an immediate run for a hotel, and so couldn't get a room.
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Post by wvengineer on Dec 29, 2017 23:20:03 GMT
Yes but not in the same place. Large copper "fin" is in its self a heatsink, and the heat is not on the surface of a friction pad that resists heat transfer, and in that friction, wears down at the same time, so is easier to dissipate than a heavy brake drum and friction pad set, or even disk. From what I can find, the heat is dissipated a hell of a lot easier, yes they have to find a way of creating a heatsink that can cool, but because of the lack of friction, the brakes last longer under heavy braking than traditional brakes, and you dont get brake fade. This is why the interest from heavy haul... I would love to find a way to incorporate this technology into long downgrades on either railroads or freeways. build a system that generates power as it prevents vehicles from running away on the downgrade. it would take a lot of engineering to make it work, but it is an interesting thought. Diesel electric locomotives use dynamic breaking heavily. Normally the power generated by dynamic breaking is sent to a large bank of resistors and dumped off as waste heat. I actually don't think it would be that hard to setup a switching system that would send it to an outside connection. My first thought would be sort of an inverse of the electric rail supply lines that trains currently use. Instead of feeding power to the train, the train would feed power to the local grid. If you have a area where you commonly run the dynamic breaking on a down grade, you could setup the power lines and let the engine and physics do its thing. There are plenty of grades through the Rocky Mountains that would be ideal. Two challenges I could see. 1. Equipping your fleet. time and money, bit not very challenging from a technical stand point. 2. What will the grid do with that power? If you have a train that takes 3x3,500 HP engines to control it on a down grate, that is 10,500 HP worth of power or 7.8MW of electricity generated. That is a lot of power for a grid to be able to absorb and react to in a short period of time. You either have to have some way to store that influx of power and then release it as needed, or a grid designed with enough capacity that can be shut down quickly enough to allow for the new source of energy.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 30, 2017 0:56:01 GMT
I would love to find a way to incorporate this technology into long downgrades on either railroads or freeways. build a system that generates power as it prevents vehicles from running away on the downgrade. it would take a lot of engineering to make it work, but it is an interesting thought. Diesel electric locomotives use dynamic breaking heavily. Normally the power generated by dynamic breaking is sent to a large bank of resistors and dumped off as waste heat. I actually don't think it would be that hard to setup a switching system that would send it to an outside connection. My first thought would be sort of an inverse of the electric rail supply lines that trains currently use. Instead of feeding power to the train, the train would feed power to the local grid. If you have a area where you commonly run the dynamic breaking on a down grade, you could setup the power lines and let the engine and physics do its thing. There are plenty of grades through the Rocky Mountains that would be ideal. Two challenges I could see. 1. Equipping your fleet. time and money, bit not very challenging from a technical stand point. 2. What will the grid do with that power? If you have a train that takes 3x3,500 HP engines to control it on a down grate, that is 10,500 HP worth of power or 7.8MW of electricity generated. That is a lot of power for a grid to be able to absorb and react to in a short period of time. You either have to have some way to store that influx of power and then release it as needed, or a grid designed with enough capacity that can be shut down quickly enough to allow for the new source of energy. I wouldn't think the power grid would have much difficulty handling a 7.8MW power fluctuation. It handles fluctuation much greater than that from wind and solar farms all the time.
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Post by the light works on Dec 30, 2017 2:30:03 GMT
I wuoldn't expect it to be a fast dump, so the grid control systems would be able to throttle back combustion fueled power plants as the power came into the system.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 30, 2017 3:11:10 GMT
I wuoldn't expect it to be a fast dump, so the grid control systems would be able to throttle back combustion fueled power plants as the power came into the system. Even if it was a sudden dump, the voltage may go up slightly ( a fraction of a volt at the 120 volt level) and the frequency increase a couple of millihertz until the power plants can respond. That's how the grid compensates and it happens all the time.
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