|
|
Post by silverdragon on Jul 3, 2016 6:53:47 GMT
Read an interesting question in an article that I can't find now: Why are the Brits the only indigenous people that are not allowed to control their own territory? Which is also why Brexit. We tried that. Honestly we did. We got offered peanuts and a comfy chair. Time to admit the donkey died a long time ago and try something else. We are ignored as an "Insignificant" little outpost on the north of france who isnt worth listening to. Well, we aint, and are fed up of people talking over us. If europe doesnt want to give us the good manners of at least listening to what we have to say, then the battle is lost, and we must retreat. How we do that will be the way we define being British. Yeah at the moment, there is a lot of gnashing of teath and waily-waily from those who didnt get the right result. But we had a vote, we got a result, now we have to deal with it. And Majority wins. No matter how much crying there is from the loosing side, we VOTED, you had your opportunity, but its a majority wins vote, and your team lost. This is not an easy win. We knopw, already, stop telling us, honestly we heard it the first time, shut the (del) up for hells sake, its NOT going to be easy... However, like completely re-planning the whole of a garden, its going to be better when its done, its hard work and we know it, but we will be much better off when the hard work is done. You dont like hard work?. You know where the doors are, please use them. And PLEASE register clearly your dislike for the plan. We want to know who NOT to invite to the part when we finish the hard work and celebrate. WEe dont want a bus load of freeloaders who complained like hell and resisted us at every turn turning up to the party and saying "I really voted out you know" Memories are long. Those who question what the hell we do now, yeah, I know, its a kind of mass cluster duck at the moment, the ideas we had of whom to lead us are pulling out of the race (Cowards?) being stabbed in the back or just plainly the muppet of himself, the one who [craped] up education, the Gove, the one who looks like the spitting image of himself, the one who cant be trusted to look after a crash barrier, the one who stabbed Boris in the back, so is plainly unsuitable to govern. We need strong leadership, but we need leadership, if not to have someone to say "Well, we have to look after ourselves now, who will join me to sort this mess out?" We need to move on and work out how to go forward together. Not stand and waste time recounting "what could have been" The time is now, the future beckons, we need to plan that together. Those that attack me today for saying "You got it wrong" will be remembered... The alternative was to slowly be dissolved in a sea of red tape designed to take away our identity and weaken our will. On our OWN. We need to get a little help from our friends, sure, we have to work with them, but what we need now is PRIDE in our own country, and make big of the fact that we work better together when we acknowledge each others identity, and thus acknowledge each others true strengths.... Not plan on how to make advantage of their weaknesses. Those that say "You got it wrong" are playing on weaknesses. Wrong is NOT listening to the needs wants and ideas of the very people you are SUPPOSED to represent.... I ask, how many "Rulings" that the eu have made would have gone ahead if they had asked the people they govern first?. We would still be using Imperial measurements if they has actually listened to what we wanted. Just one example. Meanwhile, figures have shown.... Part of an EU ruling that "forced" us into new law were that you may NOT smoke in a car is anyone under the age of 17 is present. How mush did the creation of that law cost?.. in real time monetary value?.. Number of actual prosecutions. either won or lost?.. There are no figures because no one has EVER been questioned on the subject. Not one single case has ever been reported of tickets issued or warnings given. Same with Smoking in a works vehicle. There have been numerous cases of the actual firm making complaint and dealing with its workforce for the matter, not one single criminal case involving the police has ever been bought to anyones attention as a figure for incidences of crime. Has anyone EVER been prosecuted for actually selling [banana's that were too bent]?...[insert other insane food regulations as required....] Oh no. However, there have been cases of cases and cases and cases of food THROWN AWAY as unsuitable for sale because someone FEARED prosecution.... What a bloody waste of good food. My Local supermarket has a "white label" now, of "Wonky Veg". In those bags you will find vegetables that are maybe strange shape, over size, under size, may have slight blemishes, but are perfectly good for chopping up to make a stew out of, but are deemed "Not perfect" and would have otherwise been rejected as animal feed or sent for compost. Slightly cheaper than the "perfect" veg. They are on my "Why not?>" list. What we need to do now?. Work out exactly which of the european laws need replacing with BRITISH standards, or even better, go back to using the original BRITISH standards some of them replaced, and work out what we want from europe. A Fair Level Playing Field. That is all we ask. We have TONS of ripe apples for sale, you have thousands of gallons of milk, if you dont tax our apples, we wont tax your milk. |
|
|
|
Post by mrfatso on Jul 3, 2016 7:42:44 GMT
I understand what OziRis is saying about changing the EU by citizens making their voices heard, that's what I wanted for the UK, but the trouble is that not enough of the rest of the electorate thought that it would be possible to do.
They chose to quit because they thought that the UK and other countries like Denmark would always be drowned out by France and Germany.
|
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Jul 3, 2016 7:51:16 GMT
I understand what OziRis is saying about changing the EU by citizens making their voices heard, that's what I wanted for the UK, but the trouble is that not enough of the rest of the electorate thought that it would be possible to do. They chose to quit because they thought that the UK and other countries like Denmark would always be drowned out by France and Germany. Exactly. More and more "Developing" countries are joining up, and being "Advised" by certain countries to vote a certain way. The mentality of [Even if "Its a good idea", its not "Our" idea, so we vote against it] has taken over. |
|
|
|
Post by kharnynb on Jul 3, 2016 9:41:18 GMT
boohooo, utterly untrue Silver. The UK has had a huge say in most decisions over the last few years, and repeatedly even went against majority votes within europe and decided to take their ball home and play by themselves again and again. see, Euro, Shengen, fundamental citizen rights and "area of freedom, security and justice" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_UnionSo don't say anything about how much "you had to bear eu rules" and you have no vote on anything. it's utter and complete male bovine excrement. |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Jul 3, 2016 15:35:40 GMT
boohooo, utterly untrue Silver. The UK has had a huge say in most decisions over the last few years, and repeatedly even went against majority votes within europe and decided to take their ball home and play by themselves again and again. see, Euro, Shengen, fundamental citizen rights and "area of freedom, security and justice" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_UnionSo don't say anything about how much "you had to bear eu rules" and you have no vote on anything. it's utter and complete male bovine excrement. Right. UK and Danish representatives have had plenty of say in the EU. What they use that say for just doesn't represent what the citizens of their respective countries want and that's the main problem. The "Leave" side of the argument in the UK either didn't bother to figure out that's what's going on, or conveniently left that part out of the debate and misled a majority of the public into believing that the EU is an extra-national organization that they have no say over. They have as much say as their representatives will allow them to have, but when the representatives you send just sit there and nod at most of what's said, you don't get EU agreements that suit the people. The "Remain" side could possibly have won if they hadn't arrogantly maintained that the way the UK's EU membership works now is just peachy. If they had met the "Leave" side halfway and conceded that maybe the representatives they'd sent to Brussels hadn't always acted in accordance with public wishes and guaranteed the British public that a "Remain" vote would come with votes on who got to represent them in the EU in the future, they might just have won. In short, the British public has to some degree been deceived by both sides of the argument. We have the same problem here in Denmak. Ultimately, we want to be a part of the EU. What we don't want is our government sending a bunch of puppets down there who will just nod and smile whenever Merkel or Hollande suggests something. We want someone who represents the Danish public. Someone who isn't afraid to come back home and explain to us what's going on down there and how that affects us. Because we don't get that any more than the Brits do, since our politicians obviously don't trust the average citizen to understand or even care what goes on in Brussels, many are beginning to side with the Brits that maybe leaving is the best option. It's not. We can get the agreements we want, as long as our politicians are willing to work for it. Problem is they're not. After our referendum on the whole Europol thing where we voted to opt out, our PM and the representatives he's chosen have put in exactly ZERO effort to get us a good parallel agreement. They've had almost a year and are now claiming that a deal isn't likely, so we'll have to have another referendum in December. If that's how this is going to work - having a referendum and if the powers that be don't agree with the outcome, they just don't lift a finger, threaten us with fire and brimstone, have another referendum, lather, rinse, repeat ad nauseum until they get their way - is it any wonder that they don't have public backing? And as long as they keep framing it as "the EU won't budge on this", instead of admitting it's their own damn stubborness that's in the way of a good deal, is it any wonder people don't trust the Union? |
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jul 3, 2016 17:32:59 GMT
Local smaller government is always better than larger wide range government. The United States has shown that and the European Union has confirmed it.
|
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Jul 3, 2016 18:05:12 GMT
Local smaller government is always better than larger wide range government. The United States has shown that and the European Union has confirmed it. If a lot of local, smaller governments want to cooperate on a wide variety of things, then having a larger, wider government to ensure everyone has a level playing field can be a good thing. The moment it starts to be detrimental is when the local representatives forget who they're representing and the larger government starts to take over, because the larger government has a hard time appreciating the day to day plights of people in smaller, local communities. Just as a representative from California can have a hard time understanding the daily difficulties people in Ohio face, as can a representative from Denmark have a hard time understanding the everyday problems people in Spain have to deal with. When that's so obviously the case, why should someone from Denmark have any say in things that affect the daily life of the average Spaniard? "One size fits all" is as much a lie when it comes to government as it is with clothes. |
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Jul 4, 2016 6:07:12 GMT
boohooo, utterly untrue Silver. The UK has had a huge say in most decisions over the last few years, and repeatedly even went against majority votes within europe and decided to take their ball home and play by themselves again and again. see, Euro, Shengen, fundamental citizen rights and "area of freedom, security and justice" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_UnionSo don't say anything about how much "you had to bear eu rules" and you have no vote on anything. it's utter and complete male bovine excrement. Your Wrong. How much say have I had. How much say have the 60 million people who live here had. How long since we had any kind of referendum on any kind of rule. How much of what UK had to say actually changed the way europe went. Opt OUT is not the same as being able to prevent the thing happening at all is it?. The idea of open borders was plain lunacy from the start, look at the middle east "Invasion" of economic refugees for a starting point there, we tried to say it was a bad idea, but all we were left with is the option to "well if you dont like it there is the door", which we took, and have been berated for ever since. And just how many of the member states are now deciding to close their own borders to help control migration now?... Were we right?. And because of your attitude "Shut up and put up with it", half the country has revolted against that kind of revolting rule. We dont want the only option of "taking the ball home", what we wanted was some actual SAY in how the europe was run. Instead we got ignored. Again, And again, and again, and again, repeat ad-nausea. The last time Our PM had the backing of the people, he asked that europe loosen its stranglehold on us, and who the hell were they to ask us to pay an extra 160 billion in "Tax" just because we had pulled ourselves out of recession... we were being punished for working HARD and our own govt. Austerity rules?.. Shengen?.. dont make me laugh. The country is full. Again and again we have to say this. We have not enough housing for our own people. And yet europe want us to take anyone european without even challenging their reason to be here. Then you want to just open the borders and let ANYONE in... And use us as a dumping ground for all the unwanted refugees who are force marched over france and fast tracked to callais. The euro. We did not opt out of anything there, we just refused to surrender out own currency and control of our own banks. There is a difference between blindly signing up to anything suggested and being forced to sign against our wishes. "Area of freedom security and justice" Light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance.?.. seriously?... you use that against me?... The highest court of rule is the Crown Court. The highest of that is The Old Bailey. Our justice system is so great that many other countries have based their own system on it. 99% of the time, when the Old Bailey says "Your guilty", you damn well know your guilty before the trial started. [ I do not state there have never been mistakes because that would be a lie anywhere in the world. ] Yet the europen courts can OVERTURN our decision to deport the Hook Hamza for trial in America?.. [one of] the most wanted men in USA?.. 100% of the country [minus anyone who supported his terrorism rules] wanted him out. Ian Brady, serial child killer, can not be removed from his hospital bed, even though everyone knows he is not sick, and be returned to the jail cells he is supposed to be in, because "Its against 'is uman rights" Our own legal system is one of the finest in the world, and yet, you want to be able to OVER RULE it?... That, and that one in particular, in fact that is maybe the highlight of everything, that is why Brexit. We are fed up of making decisions and having them over-ruled. |
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Jul 4, 2016 7:01:14 GMT
But how do you stop the ever increasing protest vote of "Stop bloody lying to us"
If it wasnt for the continual "spin" on how "This will be better for all of us in the end", the continual mis-direction, the out and out blatant LIES, maybe it would be easier to live with.
Cameron "Resigning"
He in his heart of heart knew that the whole country wanted to leave.
Yet he was picked to run the Remain camp.
Simply because he was TOLD to do that.
Who by?.. maybe europe only allowed him the small breaks he won by "Strong-arming" him into getting the country to stay part of europe.
Maybe it was the heads or tails between him and Boris as to who would run each side.
Yet the whole camp of "remain" used SCARE WARE tactics of "It will all go to pot is we leave" and "The country will fall apart".
Not once did we get the TRUTH on how better we will be when we stay in europe... just a whole lot of lies lies damn lies about what "MAY" happen if we leave.
BOTH sides use the same tactics.
And failed.
What you have is a protest vote of "We dont want to hear the BS".?.. maybe thats partly true.
If europe had stated that we could remain part of europe without their over-watch of our every decision, just maybe we may have voted different.
|
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Jul 4, 2016 7:19:52 GMT
I just fact-checked my posts.
Thats an increase of half a million a year. For a population of 55 million people in the last century, thats a whole lot of new people.
These are Census figures.
This does not make fast and loose with the migration, this includes those who leave and those who arrive, the figures are from multiple sites, search "UK population" for your own if you need to, they include data from the 2001, 2011, and estimates for 2016 on a lower case scenario.. it could be more by now.
Close on to Half a million people per year, thats a whole new town every year...?.. its a whole CITY, because my own city of Manchester was estimated at around 514,417 in 2013.
That is a LOT of immigration.
For a country smaller than many United States county states.. [isnt there a farm in texas bigger than the whole UK?..]
Should we be worried yet?.
We are trying to build homes, but are currently managing enough housing for 300,000 per year.... [at some estimates, exacts are hard to find...]
So where are we putting them all?..
And who is paying the benefits bill for all of them without work?.
Reason for fact check, I stated 60 million people, I needed to know how far out I was.
3 million people out.
Thats half a dozen cities worth.
Thats a LOT of error.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jul 4, 2016 13:39:29 GMT
I believe the UK is approximately the same amount of acreage as Oregon.
our population as of 2014 was just shy of 4 million. it is beginning to feel a little crowded.
do you wonder why we don't plan to visit London when we come to visit the UK?
|
|
|
|
Post by kharnynb on Jul 4, 2016 14:02:06 GMT
The UK still has a way to go before it's anywhere near as densely populated as the netherlands or belgium.
|
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Jul 4, 2016 14:03:01 GMT
I believe the UK is approximately the same amount of acreage as Oregon. our population as of 2014 was just shy of 4 million. it is beginning to feel a little crowded. do you wonder why we don't plan to visit London when we come to visit the UK? The UK has the acreage of Oregon, but with the population of California and New York State COMBINED! Youch! That puts things into perspective a bit. |
|
|
|
Post by kharnynb on Jul 4, 2016 14:21:34 GMT
And farage and boris both have distanced themselves from any responsibility for the results of their own campaign to leave...rats, ship, sinking etc...
|
|
|
|
Post by Lokifan on Jul 4, 2016 16:23:27 GMT
The UK still has a way to go before it's anywhere near as densely populated as the netherlands or belgium. Not everyone likes crowds. I'll repeat my previous question: Why are the Brits the only indigenous people that are not allowed to control their own territory? |
|
|
|
Post by kharnynb on Jul 4, 2016 17:01:13 GMT
hardly the only...compared to anyone else inside the eu or usa or any other bigger federation
plus, the fact that a lot of british feel unhappy with their politicians effort in the eu, says more about british politicians than eu policy.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lokifan on Jul 4, 2016 17:58:08 GMT
That may very well be so.
I think one major difference between the EU and the USA in terms of attitude is that most of our citizens think of ourselves as Americans first, and state citizens second.
More importantly, we accept other state's citizens as fellow Americans (even if we think they are wrong). E Pluribus Unum, and all that.
We don't have thousands of years of history of being members of other states, rather than the Union.
Plus, the US is based on an ideology, rather than on territory or tribe.
|
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Jul 4, 2016 18:20:13 GMT
hardly the only...compared to anyone else inside the eu or usa or any other bigger federation plus, the fact that a lot of british feel unhappy with their politicians effort in the eu, says more about british politicians than eu policy. The Brits are unhappy about their politicians saying yes to EU policies that the general public wouldn't have agreed to if anyone had bothered to ask them. Yes, that means some British EU representatives are pretentious, lying douchebags, but that doesn't mean the legislation they're saying yes to on behalf of their people makes any more sense. After all, if what they were signing made every Brit's life better, no one would have had a problem with it to begin with, would they? |
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Jul 4, 2016 21:01:54 GMT
Yes, that means some British EU representatives are pretentious, lying douchebags, but that doesn't mean the legislation they're saying yes to on behalf of their people makes any more sense. Are you talking about British politicians or US politicians? They sound the same.  Please educate me here. How are a county's reps to the EU selected? Are they appointed like an ambassador is? Or are they elected? Where did the rules for how they are chosen come from? The EU or the local country? If you can't stand how your rep is doing, is there any recourse for their removal and replacement? If they are elected and the population feels they are not representing them properly, why are they not recalled or voted out? |
|
|
|
Post by mrfatso on Jul 4, 2016 21:20:29 GMT
Yes, that means some British EU representatives are pretentious, lying douchebags, but that doesn't mean the legislation they're saying yes to on behalf of their people makes any more sense. Are you talking about British politicians or US politicians? They sound the same. Please educate me here. How are a county's reps to the EU selected? Are they appointed like an ambassador is? Or are they elected? Where did the rules for how they are chosen come from? The EU or the local country? If you can't stand how your rep is doing, is there any recourse for their removal and replacement? If they are elected and the population feels they are not representing them properly, why are they not recalled or voted out? There are different tiers of government within the EU. The European Council, made up of the head of Government of each EU Country, e.g. The British PM or German Chancellors r. The Council of The EU made up of a ministerial level memebers from each Nation. The EU Comission who are the executive branch made up,of appointed commissioners. The Eu Parliment is made of of elected members from each a state, One problem from the British perspective is the method chosen to elect MEPs, a system of Proportional Representation, with a regional Party list system, this is quite alien to us, with our directly elected, first past the post system . The number of MEPs for each country is calculated using a formula that gives less populated nations more than they would on a per capita basis, meaning a UK citizens vote counts less than one from say Luxembourg. |
|
