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Post by silverdragon on Dec 22, 2012 6:08:05 GMT
Can I bring in a suggestion for later models.... You need Trunk wood, especially the lower trunk of the tree, and as you can see in your pic end on, you are drilling into the block slightly off the middle of the tree?... (The rings on the wood...) If I may suggest, getting the drill to the centre of the rings would be right at the heart of the trunk, and therefore you would be using the rings around[/i] your cylinder bore as extra strength.... In the building of the tree, the tree got it right, the rings add strength each year to the trunk. The heart wood in the centre of the tree is the bit the tree uses as its arteries to pass water up and down the tree, therefore slightly weaker, so drilling that out removes any weak point in the wood?.... Also, Lower trunk wood would be stronger as it has more tree to hold up?... Kinda makes sense if you think about it. I'm Just passing on some old wood-craft my Dad passed on to me... more based on Tradition and legend (Or Log-end ...? ) than anything else... Ok, so none of this is "Known" to perhaps modern tested science, but when I want STRONG wood, if I am cutting it myself, the lower trunks get earmarked for support, and structural things, the higher trunk and branches get marked for decorative non support bits....
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Post by alabastersandman on Dec 27, 2012 6:19:26 GMT
Can I bring in a suggestion for later models.... You need Trunk wood, especially the lower trunk of the tree, and as you can see in your pic end on, you are drilling into the block slightly off the middle of the tree?... (The rings on the wood...) If I may suggest, getting the drill to the centre of the rings would be right at the heart of the trunk, and therefore you would be using the rings around[/i] your cylinder bore as extra strength.... In the building of the tree, the tree got it right, the rings add strength each year to the trunk. The heart wood in the centre of the tree is the bit the tree uses as its arteries to pass water up and down the tree, therefore slightly weaker, so drilling that out removes any weak point in the wood?.... Also, Lower trunk wood would be stronger as it has more tree to hold up?... Kinda makes sense if you think about it. I'm Just passing on some old wood-craft my Dad passed on to me... more based on Tradition and legend (Or Log-end ...? ) than anything else... Ok, so none of this is "Known" to perhaps modern tested science, but when I want STRONG wood, if I am cutting it myself, the lower trunks get earmarked for support, and structural things, the higher trunk and branches get marked for decorative non support bits....[/quote] You are correct, the only reason I am using this piece of wood is because I have it in the shop and it already has a couple of years of drying time in it. Though I am not too worried about the strength as I am going to wrap it in a wall of several ply's. I will however be a bit more "picky" if this goes as far as the next stage. Meaning that this first run gets combustion and doesn't blow apart in the process. If I need to I'll do a glue-up, that might be more stable than a solid piece. Being that I plan on using water in a wood structure, I am more concerned about warping and what-not in the cylinder, which would bind up the piston, than strength in the cylinder walls and fins. I have found in turnings that I have done that once the core of the heartwood is gone the splitting and checking stops, though the wood will still move so long as there is moisture in it. I am still thinking on using white oak but I am also pondering what result a softer more stable wood might bring. I'm not real familiar with White Oak yet as far as stability goes, I am guessing it should be stable as it does not absorb water like other woods do ( as far as I know anyway). I like the density of the Oak as it seems a denser wood would transfer heat better than a less dense wood. Conversely, a less dense and stable wood such as Cherry would absorb the water and saturate, and as you mentioned earlier, the moisture in the wood will keep the fire where we want it. There are so many options in wood to use to achieve the same goal with different properties. I probably won't decide until I am at that point and then I'll choose whatever seems appropriate at that time.
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Post by alabastersandman on Dec 27, 2012 9:15:03 GMT
I just "eye-balled" the crank pieces when I made them, I figured I better put the assembled unit on the lathe and see what kind of nightmare getting it something close to balanced would be. To my surprise, I didn't have to do anything to it beyond the bit of sanding I already did to smooth the uneven band-saw cuts.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 28, 2012 8:42:16 GMT
I could suggest that "Waterproofing" parts of wood you dont want to saturate can be done by pumping some kind of wood treatment through the parts you want to keep dry.
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Post by alabastersandman on Jan 9, 2013 7:46:13 GMT
"I could suggest that "Waterproofing" parts of wood you dont want to saturate can be done by pumping some kind of wood treatment through the parts you want to keep dry." Good thinking: There is a guy local here that does a stabilizing treatment. Most of what he does is burl/figured wood pen blanks, I guess it makes it easier to turn burls/figured woods without exploding it whilst snagging the multi-directional grain. Never tried turning stabilized wood (yet) but I have exploded some expensive burls. It has occurred to me to have the wood treated in this manner. The wood, if you are not familiar with the process, is impregnated with monomores and acrylics to produce a dimensionally stable wood. He charges by the pretreated weight of the wood. I drilled the transfer port for the intake and exhaust port last Saturday and then tried sliding the piston back in, the head already moved too much to get the piston back in. And this is before heat is applied to one side and water to the other. This piece of wood I'm using is definitely not ideal for the application. Some might say that no wood is ideal for this application, however I'm not bothered by such facts. {Now that is the MB spirit - CM}
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 10, 2013 9:53:35 GMT
Its the trying that matters.
I have been "Experimenting" as well....
I have a wooden Pipe. I have a piece of balsa wood that I have drilled a hole through, and attached hose-pipes at either end... Balsa because it WILL leak... I want to see by how much and if anything helps slow that down....
At the moment this is time consuming as I have drying time to account for, but I have experimented with mixing Oils and Water in a low-flow pump to flow through the wood, just to see if the mix helps "waterproof" the wood......
The Mix?... the pump pumps water from the base of the tank through a pipe with restriction, on the de-restricted side, I have a vent pipe to the top of the tank where Oil collects (Floats to the top), the oil then gets sucked through....... this is pinched from a pump that is supposed to suck in air to aerate a fish tank... its working...
So far, having SOME oil in the water has lessened the amount of water that leaks out of the balsa.
I am trying progressively thicker oils, then may try Wax coatings etc...
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Post by chriso on Jan 10, 2013 19:00:47 GMT
Just don't actually try and make a working one out of balsa... that would end badly...
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 11, 2013 0:49:01 GMT
Regardless of if this ever gets picked up by MB, this thread is destined for the green fields of Elysium to honour those of you who have taken the time and effort to try it at home. The information you guys are providing through your hard work, and the problems you are finding as well as potential solutions, is exactly the sort of helpful information MB would need. Even if you don't manage to get a wooden engine to work, just knowing what you have tried saves MB countless hours (if not weeks) of R&D should they decide to try this out. I would think that one of the things that might give them pause is the complex technical nature of the idea, and the limited time they'd have to work things out. So you doing some of the ground work for them would be incredibly helpful to say the least. Keep up the good work
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 11, 2013 9:34:28 GMT
"just for fun".... I tried a wax coating in a strip of Balsa... Basically, I drilled it out then pored hot wax through it to "Line" the hole. I let it soak in. It was entirely waterproof... not even a dampness on the balsa.... Until that is I went with Hot water. Hot water washed off the wax pretty sharpish... this is a "DUH" moment for me, back to the drawing board, what kind of oil or wax product for lining wooden pipes will withstand HOT water?.... I dont know of any at the moment. HOWEVER.... do I go with a possible wax that would melt in hot water as lining and utilise that method of sucking it through the pipes I mentioned last post?... How important is loss anyway?... If we have a situation where the car looses say quarter of a gallon per mile of coolant, is this going to be a problem?... Also, what OTHER forms of coolant could be used instead of Water?.. any suggestions on that would be welcome.....
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 11, 2013 9:46:12 GMT
Pressure Treated wood.
I have an idea... perhaps not one of my best, but is this worth thinking through...
I know somewhere where they "Kiln Dry" wood... The vessels they use are air tight, they kiln dry under vacuum to get water content out of the wood, then pressurise to get the wood preservative into the wood.... I deliver there, they wont tell me exact "Secrets" of course, but now I know they exist, I also am a customer now and again....
Can we adapt that method?....
Its something akin to what I do with my Chopping boards where I put them in a warm oven for a few hours to de-humidify, then cover them in hot olive oil to "treat" them and make them stain resistant and easy clean... (It also sanitizes them...)
Can THAT kind of thinking, taking the wooden parts of the engine and kiln-dry and de-humidify to the max then pressure teat them with Lubricant, can this idea be used to perhaps make things easier in the moving parts?..... Highly lubricated wood from the start MUST be useful?....
I am going for a bit of Balsa de-humidified by the Microwave method and soaked in hot wax for my next pipe test....
By the way, Microwaving wood, this is a 100% attended method, you cant set it off and walk away, you have to watch the wood for any kind of unexpected reaction and any changes of colour... And can only be done on small pieces...
But...
Certain woods can be fast>>Forwarded through "Seasoning" by use of Microwaves... However, do this before any shaping or turning, having a finished product "Pop" in the microwave is a pure waste of time isnt it?....
The above method was taught to me by my Dad, I have no idea where he got it from?...
Anyone else heard of this?...
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Post by alabastersandman on Jan 14, 2013 9:13:40 GMT
What type of oil(s) have you tried? What about heavy mineral oil? It won't mix with water but it could be used pure. Mineral oil is used in some types of electric heaters as a heat transfer fluid. It has a flashpoint of "Flash Point: > 160 deg C (> 320.00 deg F)" fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/17996.htm. I'm not sure how that number relates to mineral oil in a closed system under pressure. "It was entirely waterproof... not even a dampness on the balsa.... Until that is I went with Hot water. " Yep, wax on, wax off ;D That makes me wonder what effect the heat will have on the monomores and acrylics from the stabilizing treatment I mentioned. The treatment wouldn't be on the cylinder walls but if it gets soft it may lose it's ability to stabilize, the wood may just expand/contract/warp and then solidify in whatever state the wood is in when it reaches a temperature cool enough to harden. Sounds like a path to failure. It would be interesting to take measurements of the balsa wood you are using dry, wet, cold, hot... in all directions to see what kind of movement you are getting with the various oils or whatever you decide to test. This is the time to think this stuff through, before spending money or significant time on the "duh" moments. I like the idea of treated wood though I am not sure what woods are generally used in that process though I think Pine. Shouldn't be difficult to find out with a quick romp through the Googlator though. It may not be much of a big deal what the wood is so long as it is stable. Well other than density and heat transfer. I think you just might be on to something promising here with treated lumber and the right oil as a heat transfer medium. I think I'll bore a hole through a chunk, leave it for a couple days, and see if it holds it's shape. Another test that might prove interesting is to simply drill a hole an inch or two into treated wood and then pour water into the hole. Top off the water level as needed and test the surrounding wood with the moisture meter over several days. I will also take measurements to check for movement. I have a piece of redwood burl I could do the same test with for comparison. I think the Pine treated wood and the redwood possess properties close enough for a reasonable comparison. Another possibility similar to standard treated wood would be to use a chunk of rail-road tie. However Pine is also used for rail-road ties according to Wiki. The only downside I can see with Pine is it is not very dense and therefore will not conduct heat well. That issue may lessen with creosote treatment done in RR ties though. There are also a % of RR ties made from hardwoods. Among the hardwoods are oak, jarrah and karri. Wiki goes on to say, "Some timbers (such as sal, mora, jarrah or azobé) are durable enough that they can be used untreated." I'm not sure that their natural durability is of benefit though, it might still move. It doesn't have to move much to be problematic. So anyway... Wiki link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_tieClicked on the "Jarrah" (Eucalyptus) link and found this beauty: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Jarrah_tree_burls_01_gnangarra.JPGLook at all the burls on that tree. That gets me thinking, I wonder how stable the burl would be, burls don't have an established grain as the 'grain' is helter skelter. It seems with no established grain pattern, thermal movement would be minimal, and quite likely exhibit an (fairly) even movement in all directions. If we can get minimal even thermal movement, it might come down to getting the tolerance's right. I don't know any wood treatment people other than the stabilization process I mentioned, but I bet I could find someone. Might be able to get them to treat whatever I bring/send them. Good thoughts SD.
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Post by rick4070 on Jan 15, 2013 0:03:31 GMT
Some of the woods I use for knife scales are of stabilized wood, some purchased, and some I sent out to a stabilizing company, (tigerstripe, AKA fiddleback Maple, spalted Maple and some elk antlers.)
They use some sort of acrylic resin that hardens in the wood and antlers, you can see where they rested the wood on an expanded metal tray, as there are marks on the wood from extra resin.
They won't tell you what they use, I've been tempted to ask/tell them that I need an MSDS for it, and figure out what they are using from there.
The resin penetrates all the way through the wood, and the spalted Maple gets really hard, I'd bet balsa would be "hard as a rock" too.
They way I understand the process, the wood is submerged in the resin, a vacuum pulled, and when the bubbles stop, the vacuum is broken while the wood is still under the resin.
I have heard of Walnut gunstock blanks being treated with the same method, and those are about 4" thick.
The company I delt with charges by the pound, they weigh your wood, stabilize it, weigh it, subtract the original weight, and charge by what the wood weighs after treatment.
BTW, that is some great woodworking, I can't wait to see the future progression!!!
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 17, 2013 10:16:28 GMT
I am having problems.
Just for laughs, I tried running a Varnish through the wood, and let it dry.... Of course, it goes hard.... Nil loss when water went through...... Then I got to HOT water. Of course something expanded, the varnish cracked, flaked off, and thankfully I had a filter on my return to tank, 'cos it got filled with bits of Varnish.... (I think most of that came from the joints to plastic pipe...)
Then I have the problem with extension bits.
What is the longest wood drill you can get without extensions?... not THAT long.....
Here we have a few problems...
"Hose" length.....It is of my opinion whatever you use, without multiple joints, some of the pipe runs for a Water cooled engine are going to exceed "Sensible" when you look at Wooden pipes?.... Drilling with a bit extension is difficult enough, I am thinking also the longer the pipe, the greater the possibility of it failing?...
Rigidity.... With Wooden pipes, vibration from the engine will break all change-of-direction pipe joints...... the more pliable the wood, the greater it will leak, and the less it will be reliable...
Glue.....I dont have many waterproof wood glues that are also heat resistant....... my current test bed is friction-fit to plastic pipes to and from the test tank.
Pressure... all Hoses in my current car, I know, have been pressure rated... there is obviously a good reason for this, can you pressure test Wood pipe to the same extent?....
Oil filled coolant... see above.... yes Viable and probably better than Water alone, the Oil filled coolant can be expanded to provide Lubricant as well, and why not, its a simplified design, but we still have the problems of how to get the oil to flow from Block to Radiator.
What oils have I been using.... I have just used General Public available motor oil, Cooking oil, and Olive oil at the moment... because they were whats at hand.... The Kitchen oils because I know they work on my Wooden chopping boards, the Motor oil because I know it works on Engines, and I dont want to get too exotic because of cost.... The final build will probably need gallons of the stuff.... ?... going for oil at a weeks wages per pint at this stage, I consider false economy?... all I am looking for is proof of concept. I have only used oils at less than 80 but above 50degC at the moment, as the pump I am using wasnt designed for anything hotter, and I dont want to break it?....
"Resin" coated/impregnated wood.... yes.... thats a good idea..... I can work with that, but, again, can I ask the problems of Hose length as detailed above.... If we cant get a three foot run, for instance, that has to change direction a couple of times, and work under extreme vibration without shaking apart at the joints, is it any use me trying a six-inch leak test?....
I am thinking this through... anyone got anything?......
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 17, 2013 10:20:16 GMT
DUH! Moment.... Tar... HOT tar as a lining.....
How hot would it have to get to melt THAT then?..... I could also be used as Glue?...
And how can I get some that I can line the inside of Pipes with..... Is this off tangent too far?....
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Post by chriso on Jan 21, 2013 4:18:05 GMT
tar? isn't that kind of... sticky...? Seems to me a waterproof coating would be useless if the cylinder cannot move. Is their a way to keep it from being sticky?
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 21, 2013 8:14:50 GMT
Chris, I was thinking of the water-works pipework around the cylinder?...
However, tar impregnated wood... you may have an idea there.... it would provide some form of Lubricant in the cylinder block?...
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Post by chriso on Jan 24, 2013 20:14:59 GMT
My thought was that it would seize things up, not lubricate it. I know hot tar is what they use to bond asphalt together. I would assume that the temperatures found in an engine would heat any tar to the point it becomes sticky, and then the engine would seize and maybe explode.
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Post by alabastersandman on Jan 26, 2013 8:37:00 GMT
Been away for a while, trying to save the American people from the Fedz. I call them Fedz because Nazi was already taken. Anyway... Here's an idea Looking back at that alleged "all wood car", the body was woven with, if I'm not mistaken, strips of bamboo, and then set in resin. If a hose was woven, then set in resin, Ideally a resin that has some flex as well as can take some heat. Whether that even exists or not I do not know. Could expand on the "egg in a leaky radiator" solution and just keep running egg through it until sealed? I thought of perhaps using "Pitch" so I looked it up on Wiki, From what I read pitch made from wood is going to be brittle. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28resin%29That's too bad since pitch from wood would otherwise lend itself ideally in keeping it as much from wood as possible. The pitch would soften as heat increased, but would risk being damaged cold. I do have a solution that will work if all else fails, the engine has to be made of wood, not the hoses? Radiator, magneto, spark plug, etc? After all I think making a radiator from wood is just begging for failure. But who knows? I won't say impossible. Other materials could be used to weave a hose than bamboo such as Rattan, from palm trees. Three to five layers should form a pretty stout hose given the right material to seal it. Could use a layer of Rattan, then (weaving) grass, then Rattan... The smaller grass strands would soak up a lot of pitch (or whatever) and the Rattan or Bamboo would give it tremendous strength. When brainstorming leave no idea off the table, no matter how crazy it seems, so here is another idea, ferrofluid? Though I am no electrician, I know it wouldn't be difficult to generate a current, and from my understanding, it is the current operating a speaker cone that moves the ferrofluid in a ferrofluid cooled driver. I don't pretend to know just how this fluid cools the coils in speakers, as it does not use any sort of external radiator. What function causes the fluid to cool the coils? Not very, particularly if you are using Forestner bits. I have successfully welded steel rod to drill bits in 3/8 and 9/16 sizes. These were not wood bits but I find them indispensable when drilling out out turned posts for threaded lamp rod. The converted drill bits are approx 18" long. I made them way back when, when I was building conveyer systems for a now defunct "Ideas In Motion". That was a fun job, nearly every piece was custom made. Even some of the "standard" machines were not entirely standard as the length had to fit the application. I also made some drill extensions that utilized a bit smaller rod. Depending on the shaft size you are needing to accommodate, get some rod and drill a hole in the end to fit the shaft size. For smaller shafts you might consider some thick steel tubing that is welded to smaller rod. Then use the open end of the tube to hold your drill bit. Once you got this, drill a hole into the side of the extension opening, thread it and then use set screws to lock down the bit. If you drill all the way through (you will have to to be able to thread it) you can use a set screw on each side to center the bit if there is some play. I've made T-handles in the same fashion, handy things to have.
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Post by alabastersandman on Jan 26, 2013 9:27:36 GMT
Thank you! And here is some progression: Just checking the fit of the crankshaft through the side panel of the crankcase. Bearing race for 'front' of crankshaft. 'Rear' crankshaft race with "needle" bearings. Close-up of 'rear' bearings. I left a bit of room for grease and expansion, time will tell how effectively. BTW, my sound on my laptop stopped working and was down for a while whilst I was trying to figure out what to do, I went to Dell's website and downloaded a new driver and got my sound back. If I had sound before I would have done something about the horrid sound on that video I posted. I'll see if I can fix that and re-post it.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 24, 2013 18:10:16 GMT
Any news on this?
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