|
Post by the light works on Aug 21, 2021 21:44:05 GMT
I think we need to get more clarity there's a few scenarios that might be considered a tug assisted reentry:
1: you have vessels with stardrive, only, and they are launched and landed by a "tug"
2: in a universe without spacedocks, damaged ships are de-orbited by tow vessels
3: vessels with full engines use a local "tug" like a river pilot vessel to guide reentry.
there are probably more, but they have some commonalities and some differences.
in model 1, the logic behind it is that heat shielding and launch/reentry engines are big. so if your starships don't need to carry them; you save a lot of mass. however, then your tug has to have heat shielding for both, which limits your range of design. using container ships and tenders might be a more efficient option.
in model 2: it would take some explaining why an interstellar society doesn't have a spacedock.
model 3, seems to me to be the most logical scenario: in an interstellar society, reentry to each planet would be a specialized skill, and a pilot tug could be built with a docking system and control interface. it would need to be a universe where fuel was relatively cheap, or the planetary drive was the same as the stardrive and you needed shielding mass in interstellar space, as well.
so bottom line: de-orbiting a ship is pretty easy. wouldn't take much to make a tug to knock things out of orbit. getting them safely to an on-planet spaceport would be a bit more complex, but possible. the bigger question is why you would want to do it that way.
|
|
|
Post by ironhold on Aug 21, 2021 22:14:21 GMT
The scenario I was considering was thus -
Imagine Earth as it is today.
Now imagine that human or human-like aliens (think something like the Vulcans or Klingons) exist, but for various reasons they've decided we're not ready for formal first contact. Thus, only a handful of people here on Earth even know that there's other life out there, let alone have the means to contact them or physically go out there.
The issue is forced when a charter touring vessel suffers a warp drive malfunction. Instead of safely transporting them to Cintarus V, whose northern continent is famous for its hot springs and casinos, they're now stuck near Earth. The malfunction was of such a nature that they have every reason not to trust the integrity of their drive, and so trying another warp is out of the question.
The good news is that the vessel's crew have figured out where they are. The bad news is that even though they sent the SOS out immediately, if they lose their main drive completely they'll lose the main oxygen recyclers and so could be in dire straits by the time help arrives. If they can get down to Earth and find a sympathetic ear, they'll at least have (comparatively) fresh air and the possibility of provisions.
Turns out that not only have the people on Earth who can pick up their SOS actually picked it up, one dude has a ship that's capable of atmospheric exit and re-entry. Problem is, it's a *military* ship, the equivalent of a WWII-era bomber, and so the bulk of what room is inside is taken up by munitions racks and whatnot. The guy who owns the ship can't evacuate the passengers, let alone the crew, in one go because of it.
...But he *can* use the ship as something akin to a river pilot vessel, attaching tethers to the touring vessel to help guide it through. He also has priority usage of an Air Force base with a *very* long runway, long enough that at one point it was a backup landing site for the space shuttle. If everyone on the touring ship prays like they've never prayed before, there's a real chance they can come in safely.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 22, 2021 1:03:29 GMT
The scenario I was considering was thus - Imagine Earth as it is today. Now imagine that human or human-like aliens (think something like the Vulcans or Klingons) exist, but for various reasons they've decided we're not ready for formal first contact. Thus, only a handful of people here on Earth even know that there's other life out there, let alone have the means to contact them or physically go out there. The issue is forced when a charter touring vessel suffers a warp drive malfunction. Instead of safely transporting them to Cintarus V, whose northern continent is famous for its hot springs and casinos, they're now stuck near Earth. The malfunction was of such a nature that they have every reason not to trust the integrity of their drive, and so trying another warp is out of the question. The good news is that the vessel's crew have figured out where they are. The bad news is that even though they sent the SOS out immediately, if they lose their main drive completely they'll lose the main oxygen recyclers and so could be in dire straits by the time help arrives. If they can get down to Earth and find a sympathetic ear, they'll at least have (comparatively) fresh air and the possibility of provisions. Turns out that not only have the people on Earth who can pick up their SOS actually picked it up, one dude has a ship that's capable of atmospheric exit and re-entry. Problem is, it's a *military* ship, the equivalent of a WWII-era bomber, and so the bulk of what room is inside is taken up by munitions racks and whatnot. The guy who owns the ship can't evacuate the passengers, let alone the crew, in one go because of it. ...But he *can* use the ship as something akin to a river pilot vessel, attaching tethers to the touring vessel to help guide it through. He also has priority usage of an Air Force base with a *very* long runway, long enough that at one point it was a backup landing site for the space shuttle. If everyone on the touring ship prays like they've never prayed before, there's a real chance they can come in safely. well, considering our current orbital craft tech level is "usually survives its own reentry" if you're looking for this as a fictional scenario, I'd push our tech level up to basic orbital industry; and consider going with a space tractor-trailer as a commercial launch vehicle. that would put your protagonist in a vessel that had the power to try to guide a vessel down, but without the internal capacity to evacuate it.
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Aug 25, 2021 10:52:36 GMT
The idea of a site that was formerly a site h that it could land a shuttle is a stretch.
There were only 5 sites in the world considered
Kennedy Space Center Edwards Air Force Base White Sands Missile Range Vandenburg AFB Lincoln Airport/ Lincoln ANG Base
The last 2 were never used to land a shuttle.
There were also a number of airports and air force abases along the east coast of the US and Canada that could be used as an emergency landing site in the event of certain launch abort patterns. There were also a couple on islands in the Atlantic as well as some in Europe and even one in Nigeria. These are all active international airports. Basically it was any airport large enough to handle a fully loaded 747 that was along a particular flight path and wasn't insanely busy like Atlanta, Dulles, LaGuardia, etc and NASA could get people and equiptment in and out quickly.
Launch abort sites were only to be used for launches where speed is limited and more the flight would be slower. They couldn't handle a flight coming in from orbit at MUCH higher speeds.
So you are left with the 5 original sites. 4 are government owned and active sites, so they wouldn't fit your story. The last one is a dual use civilian/military airport that is also in full active use. None of those are believable sites for some human civilian to come in and buy up and turn into their own private airstrip. Aliens landing at any of those are going to draw a LOT of attention.
Next we have the issue of date. You say that a human civilian has an old military space plane/bomber. Considering nothing like that exists today, let alone be old and obsolete enough for a civilian to pick it up, you are likely looking at a tleast early 22nd century. By that time, the shuttle program will be so far in the last that many people won't even remember it.
Also, a space ship that has basic life support systems that is completely defendant on the main drive system is a really stupid design. (Maybe that's part of the plot?) Even back during the Apollo program, scrubbers could be run from multiple power supplies. They could be powered by either space craft power or EVA suit power. Take a jet airliner. There are multiple compressors that keep cabin pressure up. One on each main engine and another powered by the APU, and then you have the emergency oxygen system of all that fails. Plus you have operational procedures for what to do in the event of a loss of cabin pressure to keep the passengers and crew safe. You have multiple, redundant systems plus backups.
For a spacecraft that will be hauling around tourists you would want it to be as idiot proof and failure proof as possible for mission critical systems like life support. Multiple, redundant systems with multiple options for power supply.
|
|
|
Post by ironhold on Aug 25, 2021 20:01:15 GMT
Next we have the issue of date. You say that a human civilian has an old military space plane/bomber. "Hey Kortis, the people on this planet are so backwards I doubt that they'd know how to use any of this surplus even if they managed to find it. How about we just hide it all here instead of taking it all the way out to the disposal zone?" "Yeah, we're coming up on quitting time. Let's do it." I figure that if there's a society that has insurance, then it's going to have insurance fraud. Take a ship that's got serious problems, over-insure it, and collect the payout when it goes kaboom.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 25, 2021 23:16:06 GMT
Next we have the issue of date. You say that a human civilian has an old military space plane/bomber. "Hey Kortis, the people on this planet are so backwards I doubt that they'd know how to use any of this surplus even if they managed to find it. How about we just hide it all here instead of taking it all the way out to the disposal zone?" "Yeah, we're coming up on quitting time. Let's do it." I figure that if there's a society that has insurance, then it's going to have insurance fraud. Take a ship that's got serious problems, over-insure it, and collect the payout when it goes kaboom. so you're saying a human has acquired an ALIEN ship? and figured out how to operate it?
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Aug 26, 2021 1:12:40 GMT
"Hey Kortis, the people on this planet are so backwards I doubt that they'd know how to use any of this surplus even if they managed to find it. How about we just hide it all here instead of taking it all the way out to the disposal zone?" "Yeah, we're coming up on quitting time. Let's do it." I figure that if there's a society that has insurance, then it's going to have insurance fraud. Take a ship that's got serious problems, over-insure it, and collect the payout when it goes kaboom. so you're saying a human has acquired an ALIEN ship? and figured out how to operate it? Fly it, obtain and load fuel for it, maintain it, read and understand the controls, use it as a towing barge, all of this without attracting any attention from any government agent, UFO hunter, or random observer?
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 26, 2021 3:01:57 GMT
so you're saying a human has acquired an ALIEN ship? and figured out how to operate it? Fly it, obtain and load fuel for it, maintain it, read and understand the controls, use it as a towing barge, all of this without attracting any attention from any government agent, UFO hunter, or random observer? again, when our tech level could be bumped up to where we have orbital habitats, maybe a moon base, and they are serviced by space truckers. then there could be a (FTL drive) accident that causes some kind of catastrophic damage - but it would have to be something plausible without being bad enough the ship couldn't survive atmospheric entry and landing. maybe an engine runaway. that would throw them way off course, and severely deplete their fuel supply, as well as making it so they wouldn't be able to trust their drive until it was repaired. and I can't see anyone I'd want a relationship with sending a ship full of paying customers out in order to allow the ship to be lost for an insurance claim. that would be a little like an airline having a plane fail a safety cert, to they send it up with a full passenger load to crash. by which, I mean besides having no regard for (alien race) life, it's also stupid, because any insurance settlement will go to the families of the victims, the insurance company will probably dump them, and they may very well be investigated for sending out a ship with a known problem. I mean, having something damaged in an accident is just insurance fraud. wiping out a shipload of passengers at the same time gets all the wrong kind of attention. however, they could be a second rate transit company, with poor maintenance habits and little in the way of extra supplies - which would give a plausible reason for them needing to land to replenish and repair.
|
|
|
Post by ironhold on Aug 26, 2021 16:28:00 GMT
so you're saying a human has acquired an ALIEN ship? and figured out how to operate it? Fly it, obtain and load fuel for it, maintain it, read and understand the controls, use it as a towing barge, all of this without attracting any attention from any government agent, UFO hunter, or random observer? Thinking about having the person working for the government, some sort of hole-in-the-wall agency to where it's not that the other agencies don't know about them but the other agencies *keep forgetting that they exist*. Yes, it's going to rely on comedy.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Aug 26, 2021 17:16:01 GMT
Fly it, obtain and load fuel for it, maintain it, read and understand the controls, use it as a towing barge, all of this without attracting any attention from any government agent, UFO hunter, or random observer? Thinking about having the person working for the government, some sort of hole-in-the-wall agency to where it's not that the other agencies don't know about them but the other agencies *keep forgetting that they exist*. Yes, it's going to rely on comedy. so... MIB?
|
|
|
Post by ironhold on Aug 26, 2021 18:37:07 GMT
Thinking about having the person working for the government, some sort of hole-in-the-wall agency to where it's not that the other agencies don't know about them but the other agencies *keep forgetting that they exist*. Yes, it's going to rely on comedy. so... MIB? Pretty much.
|
|