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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 9, 2017 16:10:24 GMT
As long as the ground stays relativity warm, a heat pump should work well. I know they don't like to rate heat pumps in terms of being over 100% efficient, but from a money in vs heat output, they run around 300% heat pumps work very well, here - they were slow in being adopted, because there used to be little need for cooling, and most people thought of them as air conditioners. they really change the efficiency rating system because they transfer heat instead of converting energy to heat. They changed the rating system because manufactures love a confused consumer. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 9, 2017 16:24:18 GMT
heat pumps work very well, here - they were slow in being adopted, because there used to be little need for cooling, and most people thought of them as air conditioners. they really change the efficiency rating system because they transfer heat instead of converting energy to heat. They changed the rating system because manufactures love a confused consumer. I was referring to heat pumps not being able to use standard efficiency ratings which rate how efficiently a heater converts fuel or electricity to heat. but on that general subject, it is why the comparative cost labeling on water heaters is a good thing - it provides a format that can be easily compared on different technologies; although if it is not based on local energy costs, it may still be misleading. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 9, 2017 17:03:02 GMT
They changed the rating system because manufactures love a confused consumer. I was referring to heat pumps not being able to use standard efficiency ratings which rate how efficiently a heater converts fuel or electricity to heat. but on that general subject, it is why the comparative cost labeling on water heaters is a good thing - it provides a format that can be easily compared on different technologies; although if it is not based on local energy costs, it may still be misleading. On that topic, I recently purchased a new window air conditioner for the hibernation room. It has an "ENERGY STAR" label on it. The first thing I thought when I saw the label was; "well this thing isn't going to work very well." I was right. The lowest temperature setting on the thermostat is about 3 degrees warmer than what I want and the fan keeps cycling on and off all night. When it's operating, it cools just fine but it saves energy by not operating when I want it to. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 10, 2017 13:05:20 GMT
I see Bloody Stupid Johnson has been at large in more than one thread here today?.
Cut to the now europen legend that is you CAN NOT have a vacuum cleaner rated at more than 1,000 watt.
Dont matter that the 900watt doesnt suck the dirt of a wet dog thats having a shake at the same time, dont matter that the dust mites can walk faster than the suction created, dont matter that they make a tinny whine that says your going to be doing the job three times longer than a vacuum twice the power, you CANT have the one that works "More efficiently", because "Its a waste of power".
Its the same thing with them early energy saving lights...
I got more bruises by walking into bits of furniture than I have a care to mention, but, still, they [The CT nuts know who..] decided that living in "Darker" premises saves power?.. by "Misleading" you on the energy comparison?.
The "Brighter" sales execs simply switched to Lumen instead of Watt, and now we have direct comparisons, I have taken back for refund those that lied about their brightness, and, I have now got all round LED lighting.
So I am now "still paying off" the investement in new hellishly expensive LED lights, but, and this is the bit I dont think they want to know, because the Kitchen bulbs were the first to be upgraded and I havnt changed a sigle one out yet, insted of the at least one a month during the years I used halogen, I am in profit already.
And more so...
Changing a bulb is a PITA when they are all at height and "tricky", so not having to bugger about trying to get them to fit in and not having burnt figerrs from hot bulbs?.. Bonus round here, its saving me money as well?.. whats not to like?.
However, globally....
One partially miffed Trucker changing a dozen Halogen bulbs for LED, yeah, sure, the energy saved will just about warm one engine up on the jet engines the world leaders flaunt about in discussing global warming.
10,000 mile in high security cancer-forming jet liners just to attend one of them meetings?..
Have these duckers never heard for "Face-time" or Skype?...
Now excuse me whilst I go get one of them and shove a hot halogen where the sun dont shine....
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Post by the light works on Sept 10, 2017 14:49:07 GMT
I see Bloody Stupid Johnson has been at large in more than one thread here today?. Cut to the now europen legend that is you CAN NOT have a vacuum cleaner rated at more than 1,000 watt. Dont matter that the 900watt doesnt suck the dirt of a wet dog thats having a shake at the same time, dont matter that the dust mites can walk faster than the suction created, dont matter that they make a tinny whine that says your going to be doing the job three times longer than a vacuum twice the power, you CANT have the one that works "More efficiently", because "Its a waste of power". Its the same thing with them early energy saving lights... I got more bruises by walking into bits of furniture than I have a care to mention, but, still, they [The CT nuts know who..] decided that living in "Darker" premises saves power?.. by "Misleading" you on the energy comparison?. The "Brighter" sales execs simply switched to Lumen instead of Watt, and now we have direct comparisons, I have taken back for refund those that lied about their brightness, and, I have now got all round LED lighting. So I am now "still paying off" the investement in new hellishly expensive LED lights, but, and this is the bit I dont think they want to know, because the Kitchen bulbs were the first to be upgraded and I havnt changed a sigle one out yet, insted of the at least one a month during the years I used halogen, I am in profit already. And more so... Changing a bulb is a PITA when they are all at height and "tricky", so not having to bugger about trying to get them to fit in and not having burnt figerrs from hot bulbs?.. Bonus round here, its saving me money as well?.. whats not to like?. However, globally.... One partially miffed Trucker changing a dozen Halogen bulbs for LED, yeah, sure, the energy saved will just about warm one engine up on the jet engines the world leaders flaunt about in discussing global warming. 10,000 mile in high security cancer-forming jet liners just to attend one of them meetings?.. Have these duckers never heard for "Face-time" or Skype?... Now excuse me whilst I go get one of them and shove a hot halogen where the sun dont shine.... the vacuum I grew up with drew 3.7 amps, (that adds up to 444 watts) and it would pick up the carpet and clean underneath. the two issues I see with vacuum cleaners are that, first, the new vacuums have a suction path that is about 8 feet long, through corrugated hoses and poorly gasketed fittings. my mother's vacuum had a suction path about six inches long. and second: vacuum manufaturers in Americs, at least, advertise their vacuums by how many amps they draw. so they make the motors less efficient, to pump up their numbers. really, the Hoover wind tunnel advertises a "powerful 13 amp motor" this is like advertising that my work truck has a powerful five gallon per minute motor. as for bulbs: yes, CFLs became obsolete the very moment LEDs began to equal their lifespan performance. the biggest thing most people weren't told about them is they have a warm up period. - they don't hit their listed brightness for at least a minute after you turn them on. overall, efficiency is handicapped by two things: first is the manufacturers who think reducing performance is the same as increasing efficiency. second is the people who have the "I can afford it" attitude to saving energy. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 11, 2017 6:55:17 GMT
Thats like saying I want the light on when I leave the room.
Thing is, when I want the light, I usually need it "Now", and would have turned it off already many times when that "warm-up" period has finished, so, they are wasting energy merely by me being in the room stood like a lemon waiting to be able to see?..
It is also handicapped by teh I CANT afford it people who cant afford to change every bulb in their house that one light cost about a weeks worth of electricity to replace.
My Kitchen LED's started off at a Fiver each... or rather thats when I started to look, I presume they were a LOT more expensive when first out, but I was having the problem with Lumen and Watt ratings, so, waited a little, because with one being just under a £10, I decided to sod that for a game of ......
I waited until they came down to four for a £10.
Halogen and CFL's you can now get for 20 for £10.
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 11, 2017 12:35:47 GMT
CFL's were just intended as a bridge between incandescence and LEDs. LED technology wasn't ready yet when CFL's were introduced. The slow start feature of CFL's wasn't intentional. It's just because they use so little mercury in them, you have to wait for the mercury vapor pressure to increase from heat before they give you full light output. I actually like the slow start feature when turning on the light in the middle of the night in the bathroom. Other than that, it sucks.
About two years ago, I replaced all the 40 W fluorescent tubes in my shop and office area with LED tubes. (12 tubes total). 1/3 the energy and the same light output. They were expensive at the time, but now you can get them for about $7 per tube. I noticed the dollar store is now selling 60 W equivalent LED conventional style bulbs for one $1. They are selling the old incandescence for 4 for $1.
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Post by the light works on Sept 11, 2017 14:07:42 GMT
Thats like saying I want the light on when I leave the room. Thing is, when I want the light, I usually need it "Now", and would have turned it off already many times when that "warm-up" period has finished, so, they are wasting energy merely by me being in the room stood like a lemon waiting to be able to see?.. It is also handicapped by teh I CANT afford it people who cant afford to change every bulb in their house that one light cost about a weeks worth of electricity to replace. My Kitchen LED's started off at a Fiver each... or rather thats when I started to look, I presume they were a LOT more expensive when first out, but I was having the problem with Lumen and Watt ratings, so, waited a little, because with one being just under a £10, I decided to sod that for a game of ...... I waited until they came down to four for a £10. Halogen and CFL's you can now get for 20 for £10. the very first LED bulbs I sa on the market were a little better than a night light, for $10.00 (I think your pounds are twice our dollars) the first ones I installed were the equivalent of 60W bulbs for something like $18.00 now everything up to 75W standard or 65W reflector style, in Oregon, is a dollar. for comparison, CFL bottomed out at $1.99 a bulb, and high output incandescents are back up to $1.99 each. (the lowest I bought them for was $.65) |
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Post by the light works on Sept 11, 2017 14:09:39 GMT
CFL's were just intended as a bridge between incandescence and LEDs. LED technology wasn't ready yet when CFL's were introduced. The slow start feature of CFL's wasn't intentional. It's just because they use so little mercury in them, you have to wait for the mercury vapor pressure to increase from heat before they give you full light output. I actually like the slow start feature when turning on the light in the middle of the night in the bathroom. Other than that, it sucks. About two years ago, I replaced all the 40 W fluorescent tubes in my shop and office area with LED tubes. (12 tubes total). 1/3 the energy and the same light output. They were expensive at the time, but now you can get them for about $7 per tube. I noticed the dollar store is now selling 60 W equivalent LED conventional style bulbs for one $1. They are selling the old incandescence for 4 for $1. at this point, I am encouraging people to upgrade to direct wired LED tubes in their old (failed) fluorescent fixtures. at $20.00 for the ballast, and $3.00 per tube, $7.00 per tube is the better deal. |
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 11, 2017 15:10:01 GMT
I have been converting to LED on an as-needed basis. The problem is that I converted to CFLs a few years ago, so now I am waiting for the current ones to go out. I did convert all my outdoor lights to LED. CFLs don't like cold weather and some don't work well with the light sensors in some of my automatic lights.
I have a t-8 florscent fixture in my kitchen. The ballast in it died last winter. I could spend $35 for a new ballast, or $7.50 each for LED conversion bulbs. These bulbs had me rip the ballast out and wire 120VAC directly to the bulb. The new LED bulb is brighter than two of the old ones so I have two bulbs now in a fixture for 4. So additional power savings there.
When they first came out, LED bulbs were $75+ for a 60W equvilent. Now they are around $2.50 each. So they have dropped in price a huge amount.
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Post by the light works on Sept 11, 2017 15:46:31 GMT
I have been converting to LED on an as-needed basis. The problem is that I converted to CFLs a few years ago, so now I am waiting for the current ones to go out. I did convert all my outdoor lights to LED. CFLs don't like cold weather and some don't work well with the light sensors in some of my automatic lights. I have a t-8 florscent fixture in my kitchen. The ballast in it died last winter. I could spend $35 for a new ballast, or $7.50 each for LED conversion bulbs. These bulbs had me rip the ballast out and wire 120VAC directly to the bulb. The new LED bulb is brighter than two of the old ones so I have two bulbs now in a fixture for 4. So additional power savings there. When they first came out, LED bulbs were $75+ for a 60W equvilent. Now they are around $2.50 each. So they have dropped in price a huge amount. the one place LEDs still can't go is ovens and other inherently hot places. - overheat them and they change from LED (Light Emitting Diode) to NED (Nothing Emitting Diode) the last round of growing pains was LED bulbs that couldn't go in enclosed fixtures, and even now, most of the mass of an LED light is the heat sink. and yes, semiconductor lighting controls often fight with CFL bulbs - but you want to be sure you use dimmable LEDs in those fixtures (which are fortunately as cheap as non dimmables in the common styles, now) and yes, right now, unless you are taking advantage of an industry or government incentive program, it is economically sensible to finish wearing out your current bulb before replacing it with an LED. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 11, 2017 16:02:50 GMT
Right, lumen output per watt is about the same for CFL's and LEDs. So economically, it doesn't make any sense to replacing a working CFL.
They are coming out with more and more LED replacements for the "specialty" incandescents. The exposed filament LED replacements are especially impressive. Except for a little bit thicker looking "filament", it's hard to tell the difference. I still haven't seen any LED replacements for ovens yet.
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Post by the light works on Sept 11, 2017 16:13:02 GMT
Right, lumen output per watt is about the same for CFL's and LEDs. So economically, it doesn't make any sense to replacing a working CFL. actually, LEDs are more efficient. in "household" wattages, it is only 1 or 2 watts difference, but it is significant at higher wattages. - I converted 50W high pressure sodium fixtures on the fire station with 24W CFL bulbs, and now an upgrading those as they burn out to 13W LED bulbs. the people I feel kind of sorry for is californians who were required to install fixtures that would only accept fluorescents and now must pay premium prices to buy retrofit LED bulbs for them. - though you can now get LED bulbs with the GU-24 two pin base that was used to replace the edison socket and only take self ballasted fluorescent bulbs. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 11, 2017 16:18:28 GMT
I have a hard time feeling sorry for anybody in California. They voted in these crazy regulations.
I've noticed that a lot of the LED fixtures they are selling now do not have replacement lamps in them. If they fail, and you have to replace the whole fixture.
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Post by the light works on Sept 11, 2017 17:03:55 GMT
I have a hard time feeling sorry for anybody in California. They voted in these crazy regulations. I've noticed that a lot of the LED fixtures they are selling now do not have replacement lamps in them. If they fail, and you have to replace the whole fixture. yeah, I have mixed feelings about that. right now, when I provide fixtures, I usually install a standard fixture with LED lamps. that way if we get something even better it will probably also easily retrofit. |
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 11, 2017 18:12:52 GMT
and yes, semiconductor lighting controls often fight with CFL bulbs - but you want to be sure you use dimmable LEDs in those fixtures (which are fortunately as cheap as non dimmables in the common styles, now) and yes, right now, unless you are taking advantage of an industry or government incentive program, it is economically sensible to finish wearing out your current bulb before replacing it with an LED. Last week, my dad totally converted his house to LEDs. He has been slowly working on it for a couple years now. When a bulb would go out, he would pick up a multipack of LED bulbs, use one and forget where he put the rest in storage. He finally found where he was stashing all his partial boxes of bulbs and he had enough to convert the rest of the house over. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 11, 2017 18:21:12 GMT
and yes, semiconductor lighting controls often fight with CFL bulbs - but you want to be sure you use dimmable LEDs in those fixtures (which are fortunately as cheap as non dimmables in the common styles, now) and yes, right now, unless you are taking advantage of an industry or government incentive program, it is economically sensible to finish wearing out your current bulb before replacing it with an LED. Last week, my dad totally converted his house to LEDs. He has been slowly working on it for a couple years now. When a bulb would go out, he would pick up a multipack of LED bulbs, use one and forget where he put the rest in storage. He finally found where he was stashing all his partial boxes of bulbs and he had enough to convert the rest of the house over. That gives me hope. Maybe my failing memory will prove useful some day. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 12, 2017 9:23:21 GMT
Yesterday, I went through my Bulb storage.
Partly because of this thread, and partly because I had a full shelf or two in the cupboard of mixed bulbs that needed "sorting", because the ones at the back probably havnt seen light of day for a decade?..
We had been given a lot of "free" CFL's by some energy company in the last house... that was back early 2000's, or even 1999-ish?.
Still new, boxed, unused, because being twice the size of a normal bulb, they just didnt fit in the light shades we had?.
Even though "Free", you get that thing "we need to keep them, In case we need them".....yeah, [Sphericals] talk you do when you put stuff in the back of a cupboard?.
I filled about a 5ltre bucket with them, did the good thing by recycling the boxes into the paper waste, and that 5ltr bucket was JUST the bulbs... also in there were some of the the old incandescents we have replaced, because replacing one at a time in a light that takes three bulbs looked bad, so we put the old ones in the storage "Just in case"...
And a pack of Halogen that have been there since the kitchen went LED back 2012-ish?.
Now because of this thing where the CFL's are bigger and heavier than the old incandescent, we never did use CFL's except in one or two bigger heavier spotlights that could take the weight, and the have eventually worn out, and been replaced by LED now.
So the whole lot got thrown in the recycling.
I have kept one or two of each size, Large bayonet, small bayonet, large and small screw, "Just in case", but now have a list of things I need to get of each size to fully replace them as well, as I wont be using them if I can help it?.
I also no need to find some G4 replacement LED's 12volt "20 watt" bulbs for my outside lights, as I have two bulbs out on them, and have not yet found replacements in LED.
I will eventually...
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Post by the light works on Sept 12, 2017 13:39:40 GMT
Yesterday, I went through my Bulb storage. Partly because of this thread, and partly because I had a full shelf or two in the cupboard of mixed bulbs that needed "sorting", because the ones at the back probably havnt seen light of day for a decade?.. We had been given a lot of "free" CFL's by some energy company in the last house... that was back early 2000's, or even 1999-ish?. Still new, boxed, unused, because being twice the size of a normal bulb, they just didnt fit in the light shades we had?. Even though "Free", you get that thing "we need to keep them, In case we need them".....yeah, [Sphericals] talk you do when you put stuff in the back of a cupboard?. I filled about a 5ltre bucket with them, did the good thing by recycling the boxes into the paper waste, and that 5ltr bucket was JUST the bulbs... also in there were some of the the old incandescents we have replaced, because replacing one at a time in a light that takes three bulbs looked bad, so we put the old ones in the storage "Just in case"... And a pack of Halogen that have been there since the kitchen went LED back 2012-ish?. Now because of this thing where the CFL's are bigger and heavier than the old incandescent, we never did use CFL's except in one or two bigger heavier spotlights that could take the weight, and the have eventually worn out, and been replaced by LED now. So the whole lot got thrown in the recycling. I have kept one or two of each size, Large bayonet, small bayonet, large and small screw, "Just in case", but now have a list of things I need to get of each size to fully replace them as well, as I wont be using them if I can help it?. I also no need to find some G4 replacement LED's 12volt "20 watt" bulbs for my outside lights, as I have two bulbs out on them, and have not yet found replacements in LED. I will eventually... I keep a box of used light bulbs just for construction sites. if someone needs temporary lighting, particularly with recessed lights, I can throw (rubbish) bulbs in and if they get coated with drywall mud or paint it is no big deal. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 13, 2017 7:28:57 GMT
Never thought of that... but then again, I dont do that much heavy construction?.
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