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Post by silverdragon on Aug 12, 2017 8:23:43 GMT
Diesel can be ignited by hammer blow. Seriously?.. Where is this coming from, well, its one of those "Tails from the end of the bar" kind of thing I heard "Last night" in the club. We never goit to the hows and where's and why, but, this is how its said. Type of hammer, Lump hammer, something like this, He was supposedly "persuading" an axle out of its bearings or something like that whilst repairing his car?. I know, diesel is supposed to be ignited by pressure, the pressure of compression by a piston inside a cylinder. Can you get that kind of pressure with a "spilt" drop of diesel on the business end of any kind of hammer, even whilst "Persuading" an axle out of its bearings with some gusto?. Especially if its a "Cold start", if there is no heat, diesel is just innert as anything isnt it?.. or so I believed?.. unless you use EXTREME force?.. I have never even though of trying this. How the hell to test.. I do have a hefty "sledge" hammer that maybe I could get a swing with... Mime is on a hickory shaft that I just renewed last year, its about 10 lbs, I dont want to loose it, so would be a bit reticent about giving this a go and expecting to be able to keep hold of the damn thing?.. [1]Or do I just start with a normal small "Brixton screwdriver" nail hammer and a small drop for proof of concept.. Or am I missing something here, because I thought you had to have some heat in there anyway to start the reaction.. From experience, Diesel engines dont run well when Cold?. What do you all think?.. "Tall tale from the end of the bar", or does this have a ring of truth about it?. TBH, the general consensus was it couldnt have been "just" diesel on that hammer, maybe he got a spark and ignited some Petrol based WD40 or something?.. [1]The hammer is sort of a family heirloom, it was may fathers, his fathers before him, his before him etc, and also a "Triggers broom", it has reportedly been through at least half a dozen new shafts, and probably a new head back before the last century, [-pre 1900] but tools like that get handed down, its bloody useful, and therein, "priceless..."
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Post by the light works on Aug 12, 2017 8:49:03 GMT
Diesel can be ignited by hammer blow. Seriously?.. Where is this coming from, well, its one of those "Tails from the end of the bar" kind of thing I heard "Last night" in the club. We never goit to the hows and where's and why, but, this is how its said. Type of hammer, Lump hammer, something like this, He was supposedly "persuading" an axle out of its bearings or something like that whilst repairing his car?. I know, diesel is supposed to be ignited by pressure, the pressure of compression by a piston inside a cylinder. Can you get that kind of pressure with a "spilt" drop of diesel on the business end of any kind of hammer, even whilst "Persuading" an axle out of its bearings with some gusto?. Especially if its a "Cold start", if there is no heat, diesel is just innert as anything isnt it?.. or so I believed?.. unless you use EXTREME force?.. I have never even though of trying this. How the hell to test.. I do have a hefty "sledge" hammer that maybe I could get a swing with... Mime is on a hickory shaft that I just renewed last year, its about 10 lbs, I dont want to loose it, so would be a bit reticent about giving this a go and expecting to be able to keep hold of the damn thing?.. [1]Or do I just start with a normal small "Brixton screwdriver" nail hammer and a small drop for proof of concept.. Or am I missing something here, because I thought you had to have some heat in there anyway to start the reaction.. From experience, Diesel engines dont run well when Cold?. What do you all think?.. "Tall tale from the end of the bar", or does this have a ring of truth about it?. TBH, the general consensus was it couldnt have been "just" diesel on that hammer, maybe he got a spark and ignited some Petrol based WD40 or something?.. [1]The hammer is sort of a family heirloom, it was may fathers, his fathers before him, his before him etc, and also a "Triggers broom", it has reportedly been through at least half a dozen new shafts, and probably a new head back before the last century, [-pre 1900] but tools like that get handed down, its bloody useful, and therein, "priceless..."I've never had a hammer reach what I would consider an ignition temperature. I've struck sparks off nailheads, though.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 12, 2017 9:02:34 GMT
Same here, if a hammer is getting heat, its been put in the wrong place?.. Last time my hammer head was heated that much, it was being quenched in Oil after forging, to get that right balance of hardness that doesnt let it get out of shape from impact on other "Hard things"?.. like tree roots, concrete roots, Iron roots... [thats the iron re-bar inside the concrete...]
I am stating to wonder if there is any way a Human could swing a hammer "that fast" that it would ignite diesel.
Again, I never tried any of this. Never even thought about it. Never needed to?.. And if I picked up may hammer and it was coated in oil?...
And even then, I do regularly oil my hammers, especially the large Iron/Steel ones, to keep the surface from rusting away?. Am I at danger from ignition on a freshly oiled hammer if I get to eager?..
The more I write this out, its looking like "Dubious"... I am leaving the OP as it is, because thats the way it was, but, how fast does the ignition be to even ignite?. And how MUCH pressure are we talking about in an average diesel engine?.
This is getting more dubious as it goes on is it not?.
I am sure the can get some automated swing machine to swing a hammer head "That fast", but could an average human be that strong at all?.
And yes, even I have managed to spark a hammer on a nail head at some point. That may ignite a petrol substance, but not a heavier oil such as diesel, would it?.
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Post by the light works on Aug 12, 2017 9:26:48 GMT
Same here, if a hammer is getting heat, its been put in the wrong place?.. Last time my hammer head was heated that much, it was being quenched in Oil after forging, to get that right balance of hardness that doesnt let it get out of shape from impact on other "Hard things"?.. like tree roots, concrete roots, Iron roots... [thats the iron re-bar inside the concrete...] I am stating to wonder if there is any way a Human could swing a hammer "that fast" that it would ignite diesel. Again, I never tried any of this. Never even thought about it. Never needed to?.. And if I picked up may hammer and it was coated in oil?... And even then, I do regularly oil my hammers, especially the large Iron/Steel ones, to keep the surface from rusting away?. Am I at danger from ignition on a freshly oiled hammer if I get to eager?.. The more I write this out, its looking like "Dubious"... I am leaving the OP as it is, because thats the way it was, but, how fast does the ignition be to even ignite?. And how MUCH pressure are we talking about in an average diesel engine?. This is getting more dubious as it goes on is it not?. I am sure the can get some automated swing machine to swing a hammer head "That fast", but could an average human be that strong at all?. And yes, even I have managed to spark a hammer on a nail head at some point. That may ignite a petrol substance, but not a heavier oil such as diesel, would it?. I'd suppose for the test, you would put the oil on the anvil. just to not sling it around the shop - and the impact point could momentarily be hotter than the steel - as the steel would disperse the heat quick. but diesels work by compressing and heating the air in the cylinder, and whacking a drop of diesel ain't got much air in it.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 12, 2017 13:49:14 GMT
Might work if you surrounded the oil with O2. In fact, you may not even need the hammer strike.
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Post by the light works on Aug 12, 2017 14:38:46 GMT
Might work if you surrounded the oil with O 2. In fact, you may not even need the hammer strike. a good point. in fact, asphalt, once saturated with Oxygen is considered a percussion sensitive explosive material.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 12, 2017 15:01:15 GMT
*Slinks in*
MB looked at a myth regarding liquid O2 being spilled onto asphalt, causing the road to blow up. They REALLY wanted to do this myth, but after research they discovered that Liquid O2 was too unpredictable and far to dangerous to work with and reluctantly dropped the idea.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 12, 2017 15:57:50 GMT
*Slinks in* MB looked at a myth regarding liquid O2 being spilled onto asphalt, causing the road to blow up. They REALLY wanted to do this myth, but after research they discovered that Liquid O2 was too unpredictable and far to dangerous to work with and reluctantly dropped the idea. An explosion too dangerous for the Mythbusters? I'd say that in itself confirms it.
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Post by the light works on Aug 12, 2017 23:10:30 GMT
*Slinks in* MB looked at a myth regarding liquid O2 being spilled onto asphalt, causing the road to blow up. They REALLY wanted to do this myth, but after research they discovered that Liquid O2 was too unpredictable and far to dangerous to work with and reluctantly dropped the idea. An explosion too dangerous for the Mythbusters? I'd say that in itself confirms it. considering I learned what I learned from a guy who presided over a rolled liquid oxygen truck... no, the pavement didn't explode at THAT scene... but a car that went through the plume caught fire. And he said the pavement CAN explode, and I have every reason to assume he knows what he's talking about. - the instructors were the retired boss of hazmat for Portland, and the retired boss of hazmat from Arizona.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 12, 2017 23:19:04 GMT
I seem to remember Adam saying that when they raised the idea of testing liquid O2, their explosives experts actually looked genuinely scared.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 12, 2017 23:21:38 GMT
Note that they heated the metal foil they were using first. Begging the question as to if normal work could heat something like an anvil up enough to duplicate this.
Although saying that I can imagine that a blacksmith that picked up and used a hammer could be in for a surprise.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 12, 2017 23:35:54 GMT
Note that they heated the metal foil they were using first. Begging the question as to if normal work could heat something like an anvil up enough to duplicate this. Although saying that I can imagine that a blacksmith that picked up and used a hammer could be in for a surprise. This is just underwhelming.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 12, 2017 23:41:12 GMT
Maybe. But it does show that you can ignite diesel this way.
As to if it could ignite with enough force to throw it out of your hand, rather than the holder jumping backwards and letting go out of shock, is a different matter.
Heck, maybe MB could get some impact sensitive explosives to coat a hammer head with at the end of testing. That would be fun.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 12, 2017 23:50:20 GMT
I remember our chemistry teacher in high school mixing up something from some very common chemicals and then hitting little balls of it with a hammer making it explode. I'm pretty sure I remember what it was, but really don't want to post it.
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Post by the light works on Aug 13, 2017 1:35:19 GMT
I remember our chemistry teacher in high school mixing up something from some very common chemicals and then hitting little balls of it with a hammer making it explode. I'm pretty sure I remember what it was, but really don't want to post it. they discontinued it from college science classes right around the time I was in college. I have a military manual that tells what it is and how to make it, but I have no idea where the manual is - and I wouldn't post it, anyway. it is a formula that is "reasonably safe" which is to say, not something you would trust the AVERAGE person not to do the stupid with. however, as I child I remember hitting entire rolls of paper caps with rocks, and not getting enough blast to noticeably move the rock - so I'm questioning how much force the diesel will deliver, from the get-go.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 13, 2017 11:19:43 GMT
I watch the video, and I to, and underwhelmed. Thanks for finding that. I am going to propose incomplete combustion?.. from the smoke that comes off?. The amount used, although they wouldnt have used "A Lot", is rather more that you would expect to adhere to a hammer head from a slight spill. The heated combustion was maybe no more that I would expect from a hammer blow if I was hammering home a rather reluctant peg in a bit of 4x4.. This is supposed to be a fuel that has a lot of low down grunt, how the hell do they manage to run an engine on that?. But looking at the whole thread so far has managed to answer the questions I had. I suspect the guy at the end of the bar was "Telling porkies" Rhyming slang, porkies = pork pies = lies..He did describe a Flash and a Bang that ripped the hammer out his hand, not he dropped it in surprise?. So onwards. LOX in transport, ADR Rules, yes, we are warned that if dropped on Tarmac it is an extreme fire risk, "especially on a hot day", and even more so if some twit has just bunged a finished fag end out a window, so a leaky valve and some spillage is an immediate halt and call emergency services notification event. Other substances dropped... My father once attended a crime scene where he was to take evidence of a failed attempt to blow up a safe. As they are walking in the room, there is small balls of what looked like wax all over the floor. This is back 1970-something-?.. Public education is not what it is now post Mythbusters and science channel. They walk over that floor to the safe, and start investigation. [Names changed obviously...] .... he was right.... Someone made some "Bad" nitroglycerine, and attempted to make it into Dynamite by adding some kind of wax, but they got the recipe all wrong. Forensic tests show that they had put far too much wax product in the mix, and the blast of the ignition cap had blasted all the wax out and away from the safe, coated in small amounts of Nitro, but being the wrong mix, the nitro had failed to "Go off" The worry was until the knew what it was exactly, one step in the wrong place could have set off the nitro?.. So extra myth here, can Nitroglycerine made "In the right way" and no we dont want to know exactly how that is on an open board, can it be so dangerous that it will ignite by merely walking on it. If not, if it is made "In the wrong way", will that make it even more dangerous than it is?. Side side myth.. In my work in ADR, I niver did get the extra tag that was HIGH high High explosives. I wasnt that kind of fool... One of the lads who I worked with did. He was called to "Evaluate" a scene of old explosives found in a shed... Someone had in the past decided to remove a few rocks and tree stumps with explosives from a patch of land. They had ordered too much, so put some in storage "For later use".. to be found by their grandson, now 23[ish], and a qvivering in his boots, as he used to play hide-and-seek in that shed as a Kid..... "Gelignite" type explosives "Sweat". The mix is only temporary, the Nitro part of Nitro explosives never fully mixes with what makes it Dynamite, left for a few decades, the Nitro starts to be drawn to the surface. If you have old explosives, they can be in that way, extremely dangerous. His evaluation was "Dont move them at all... call the bomb squad" So side myth, how "Dangerous" are old explosives. This is a public education film all of its own, in that it can help warn the public not to fool with old explosives, GTF out of there and call the bomb squad. I know the exacts myself, having been "slightly" Military, and working on places where the Luftwaffe have left old ordinance along the runway that maybe we didnt find all of them?. We were warned pretty much on pain of having to shine up all the parade boots in 100 mile if you ignored the warnings, DO NOT FOOL, and then when they DID find one, all our mob from that one station were lined up at a safe distance to see the Bomb Squad and what a small golf-ball sized chunk of C4 could do to the UXB they found at the side of the runway. Shook the ground a little.... Invented "A new post code", and we got a nice new fish pond the first time it rained. However, on thing we used to do, take the head of a "Strike anywhere" match, remove the wood part, and put it between two bolts and a Nut, screwed in tight. Find someone totally engrossed in what they are doing and toss it to drop right behind them... ***DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME*** My wife didnt find that funny. The kids did, but not my Wife, and she wasnt even the target....Kid 1 asleep on the patio, in repayment for him doing the cling-film thing over the bedroom door.
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Post by the light works on Aug 13, 2017 14:26:35 GMT
keeping in mind that before Mr Nobel did his work, it was common practce for the explosives "shack" to be floating in the middle of a pond, so there would be less shoveling required before you built a new shack and hired another explosives man. craters in ponds tend to fill in all on their own.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 13, 2017 14:51:54 GMT
The video may be underwhelming, but it does seem to show you can at least ignite heated diesel with a hammer blow. Assuming that they actually used diesel in the video.
I'd agree that it is highly unlikely this would create anything close to the amount of force needed to rip a hammer out of someone's hand. It might however cause enough shock to make someone let go of the hammer on the backswing, either psychological or down the handle into the hand.
That said it does strike me as having a fair amount of potential for MB. They can test the myth as is, and have variations in the size and type of hammer used. They can then move on to testing other liquids that might have been spilled onto a hammer and end with using real explosives.
Just as importantly from a production viewpoint is that everything short of using real explosives doesn't require anything they either don't already have in shop or couldn't buy cheaply and easily from the nearest hardware store. Chances are they could test almost everything in three or four days, depending on if they opt to do testing on location for safety (which is a given if they go for real explosives).
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Post by the light works on Aug 13, 2017 15:16:01 GMT
The video may be underwhelming, but it does seem to show you can at least ignite heated diesel with a hammer blow. Assuming that they actually used diesel in the video. I'd agree that it is highly unlikely this would create anything close to the amount of force needed to rip a hammer out of someone's hand. It might however cause enough shock to make someone let go of the hammer on the backswing, either psychological or down the handle into the hand. That said it does strike me as having a fair amount of potential for MB. They can test the myth as is, and have variations in the size and type of hammer used. They can then move on to testing other liquids that might have been spilled onto a hammer and end with using real explosives. Just as importantly from a production viewpoint is that everything short of using real explosives doesn't require anything they either don't already have in shop or couldn't buy cheaply and easily from the nearest hardware store. Chances are they could test almost everything in three or four days, depending on if they opt to do testing on location for safety (which is a given if they go for real explosives). as Troy demonstrated in exploding hammer, the degree of competence of the user makes a difference in how much force it takes to rip a hammer out of a person's hand.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 14, 2017 8:10:28 GMT
This is progressing nicely, I think we found something they can do then... good?...
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