bioLarzen
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 22, 2012 21:47:21 GMT
It's one of those clichés you see in millions of movies: a man is chased down an alley or street, maybe a field or square by a car. The guy keeps running forward, gets hit by the car. Often, the guy tries to evade the car by turning round corners, etc - usually no luck.
In real life, it would seem that a car is way too hard to maneuvre swiftly enough to chase and hit a man who has the brains not to run straight. so, I think a man could easily lose the car by a couple of sudden direction changes.
I know it might be tricky to test - and of course not by a real car and a real guy the same time... still, maybe there is a way to test it.
Apart of the sudden changes in direction, I'd also like to test running and staying behind various objects that seem to withstand the impact of a car: a lamppost (wooden or concrete), a tree, etc... Running immediately behind one of those and stay put, I doubt a car could maneuvre swiftly enough to hit you.
bio
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 22, 2012 22:00:30 GMT
I'd expand it to 'avoiding a car', so they could test things like jumping out of the way or running and pushing someone out of the way - both being staples of TV and films.
I agree that this would be a bugger to test. Padding would slow a runner down, and even if you padded the car you couldn't remove the risk of your test subject ending up under the wheels.
Maybe they could start by testing the speed and agility of a running man (or woman), then try to build an RC rig that could duplicate the speed (easy) and agility (very difficult I'd think) of a person with buster strapped to it.
They could even have someone 'run' along a mock street as if avoiding a car (maybe chase them in a golf buggy or something small, capable of stopping before it runs over the runner if they trip and unlikely to cause injury even if it does hit them). Then use the rig to duplicate those manoeuvres as closely as it can while being chased by a real car.
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Post by the light works on Nov 23, 2012 4:26:35 GMT
Indeed - I think the success or failure has a lot to do with what the writer needs to happen, but I certainly don't volunteer to be the test subject.
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
"I reject your avatars and substitute my own."
Posts: 86
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 23, 2012 12:41:01 GMT
I'd expand it to 'avoiding a car', so they could test things like jumping out of the way or running and pushing someone out of the way - both being staples of TV and films. I agree that this would be a bugger to test. Padding would slow a runner down, and even if you padded the car you couldn't remove the risk of your test subject ending up under the wheels. Maybe they could start by testing the speed and agility of a running man (or woman), then try to build an RC rig that could duplicate the speed (easy) and agility (very difficult I'd think) of a person with buster strapped to it. They could even have someone 'run' along a mock street as if avoiding a car (maybe chase them in a golf buggy or something small, capable of stopping before it runs over the runner if they trip and unlikely to cause injury even if it does hit them). Then use the rig to duplicate those manoeuvres as closely as it can while being chased by a real car. Yeah, expanding the scope would indeed be a good idea. But, sadly, it's the testing protocol that might tackle the whole thing here... Because, despite tha fact that there would be safe ways to prove that a car can't take a bend a running man can - we all know that the guys want to show an actual man chased by an actual car. and, since the test requires a moving, actively reacting test subject, the usual human analogues are no solution here. bio
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 23, 2012 13:35:15 GMT
I don't know, Buster being run over by a car would look interesting enough. The real question is if you could build an RC system that would have similar agility to a running man.
Jumping out of the way or pushing/pulling someone out of the path of a car might be easy to test. The first would need nothing more than Buster and an air cannon. The second might be testable if they built a foam car (or the front of one) and ran it along a track at driving speed and tried to jump out of the way.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Nov 23, 2012 15:04:17 GMT
A third objective for this test could be diving right before the car's going to hit you. You lie flat on the ground and the car passes over you. Of course, in the movies, the chase car always has a high enough suspension to allow for someone to fit under it.
To start at the beginning: What would the minimum ride height of a vehicle need to be for a person to be able to lie under it? Stipulation: not touching any part of the exhaust system as to avoid serious burns.
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 23, 2012 15:26:13 GMT
A good addition to the idea - and easy to test with Buster.
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 23, 2012 22:34:53 GMT
The real question is if you could build an RC system that would have similar agility to a running man. I'm afraid human technology is nowhere near that. bio
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
"I reject your avatars and substitute my own."
Posts: 86
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 23, 2012 22:36:11 GMT
A good addition to the idea - and easy to test with Buster. Yeah. Ideas are starting to accumulate for a car chase special. bio
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Post by ironhold on Nov 23, 2012 22:58:37 GMT
Indeed - I think the success or failure has a lot to do with what the writer needs to happen, but I certainly don't volunteer to be the test subject. Nash Entertainment has two police cam videos of people who got hit by cars with enough force that it literally knocked them out of their shoes. One video (shown on World's Dumbest) shows a guy trying to cross a highway, only to get plowed into by a driver that was on drugs. The other (shown on both World's Dumbest and either Most Shocking or World's Wildest Police Videos) shows a suspect inadvertently blundering in front of a police cruiser while trying to bail out of his escape vehicle; the police officer couldn't stop in time, and can be heard cursing about the fact that he hit the suspect.
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 23, 2012 23:11:23 GMT
The real question is if you could build an RC system that would have similar agility to a running man. I'm afraid human technology is nowhere near that. bio What about using a Mecanum type wheel on a powerful RC bot? (Why do I think I just got full support from Grant... ) We don't need a fast machine - the speed of an Olympic sprinter is only 23-27 mph ( www.independent.co.uk/news/science/under-the-microscope-how-fast-can-a-human-run-1960718.html ) But sustained speed over a mile for an average man is around 10mph. So if we have a powerful engine a lot of the additional power could be used for turning rather than straight-line speed. (Of course being Mythbusters they would want to use the running speed of the cast as theior benchmark. Cue Tori giving an evil grin, looking in the direction of his truck and saying 'Remind me, who is it that likes to taser me?') If weight is a major factor, they could go with Buster-lite (the blow up version). They could race the RC 'bot to see how it compares to the cast (again, for some reason I can see Grant smiling - probably because he'd be the one controlling it rather than running) in terms of agility. This would allow them to get a better idea as to how the 'bot compares, and therefore be able to make a reasonable call on if a human might have faired slightly better.
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Post by the light works on Nov 24, 2012 3:05:28 GMT
This might be a bit of a challenge to set up; but they might do a double exposure process - have the runner do his "evasion run" without the car, then overlay the car trying to follow the pattern, to see if the car can do it faster. it would take some kind of tech to make a projected marker duplicate the runner's pattern.
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
"I reject your avatars and substitute my own."
Posts: 86
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 24, 2012 13:13:21 GMT
I'm afraid human technology is nowhere near that. bio What about using a Mecanum type wheel on a powerful RC bot? (Why do I think I just got full support from Grant... ) We don't need a fast machine - the speed of an Olympic sprinter is only 23-27 mph ( www.independent.co.uk/news/science/under-the-microscope-how-fast-can-a-human-run-1960718.html ) But sustained speed over a mile for an average man is around 10mph. So if we have a powerful engine a lot of the additional power could be used for turning rather than straight-line speed. (Of course being Mythbusters they would want to use the running speed of the cast as theior benchmark. Cue Tori giving an evil grin, looking in the direction of his truck and saying 'Remind me, who is it that likes to taser me?') If weight is a major factor, they could go with Buster-lite (the blow up version). They could race the RC 'bot to see how it compares to the cast (again, for some reason I can see Grant smiling - probably because he'd be the one controlling it rather than running) in terms of agility. This would allow them to get a better idea as to how the 'bot compares, and therefore be able to make a reasonable call on if a human might have faired slightly better. What I meant was we don't have any "mechanical analogues" that are even remotely capable of human-like motion by themselves. No robot can move in a way that looks like a genuine human - even for a casual jog. Running at full speed and making sudden directional changes... I don't think anybody could make a machine that would be good enough not to yield hundreds of fans saying the test wasn't valid, IMHO. bio
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Post by Lokifan on Nov 24, 2012 18:43:07 GMT
I really like this idea because it's one of my pet peeves in film. Just jumping into a doorway would let may poor victims escape.
I like the foam rubber car approach. You might be able to get away with it if you had something like a souped up electric wheelchair in the middle of a car-sized block of light foam rubber, maybe? Keep the robotics out of it if your target is live; better to have a human with some driving control.
Still dangerous, I suppose.
Maybe they could build two football field sized grids. Each element would be a light and sensor space every foot or so. When a car or person gets near the sensor, the corresponding light on the other grid would illuminate. That way, the car could chase the light of the human, and the human could avoid the light of the car.
You might even be able to manage it with a smart enough camera and spotlight/laser display method combination, so as to avoid the grid hardware.
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
"I reject your avatars and substitute my own."
Posts: 86
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 24, 2012 20:41:00 GMT
The only problem with a foam rubber car would be that the car needs to have a normal car's mass, otherwise it won't act like a normal car on the road.
bio
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 24, 2012 20:53:12 GMT
I really like this idea because it's one of my pet peeves in film. Just jumping into a doorway would let may poor victims escape. I like the foam rubber car approach. You might be able to get away with it if you had something like a souped up electric wheelchair in the middle of a car-sized block of light foam rubber, maybe? Keep the robotics out of it if your target is live; better to have a human with some driving control. Still dangerous, I suppose. Maybe they could build two football field sized grids. Each element would be a light and sensor space every foot or so. When a car or person gets near the sensor, the corresponding light on the other grid would illuminate. That way, the car could chase the light of the human, and the human could avoid the light of the car. You might even be able to manage it with a smart enough camera and spotlight/laser display method combination, so as to avoid the grid hardware. The sensor-grid would, I suspect, be far too time consuming, expensive and complex for MB to consider trying - and that is without trying to add 'buildings' a runner might try to use as cover and having to duplicate their positions. A 'foam' car runs into the rather major problem in that it will not turn as a real car does. The turning circle of a car is denoted by the wheel-base, which is considerably larger than a wheel-chair or golf-cart. I guess that it *might* be possible to take an existing car and strip it of everything but the wheels and frame, using that as the basis for a foam body. But even this would have problems, as it isn't going to handle like a real car due to having a significantly lower mass and would still be dangerous if it drives over someone. A foam car could, however, be a viable way to test jumping/pushing someone out of the path of a car. In this case the whole 'car' could be made out of padded lightweight material, as it doesn't need to move under its own power or make any turns. I'm of the opinion that the best way to go about testing would be to try to find something to replace the most fragile thing - the runner. If you could avoid a car using something that is somewhat less agile than a human, then logically a human *should* be able to avoid the car as well. And if it is a close run thing, and you have an idea how agile a human is, you could make a reasonable guess as to if a human may have faired somewhat better. One thing to note is that a human who is running at top speed isn't going to be capable of turning quite as quickly as you might think - there is a good reason athletic tracks have curved corners rather than right angles. It may be possible to find 'bot design that is capable of turning at roughly the same angles as a human - this would require some testing but seems viable for a chase-test.
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Post by the light works on Nov 25, 2012 0:05:19 GMT
as for pulling someone out of the way, I can give anecdotal evidence that it is confirmed. this comes from an incident that started with a garbage truck with a fire in the garbage compartment; and ended with a fire engine with a broken windshield, two very distressed firefighters, and an RV driver who was absolutely befuddled at why the firefighters would want him to stick around until the state troopers got there to file charges against him.
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Post by ironhold on Nov 25, 2012 1:43:34 GMT
The sensor-grid would, I suspect, be far too time consuming, expensive and complex for MB to consider trying - and that is without trying to add 'buildings' a runner might try to use as cover and having to duplicate their positions. A 'foam' car runs into the rather major problem in that it will not turn as a real car does. The turning circle of a car is denoted by the wheel-base, which is considerably larger than a wheel-chair or golf-cart. I guess that it *might* be possible to take an existing car and strip it of everything but the wheels and frame, using that as the basis for a foam body. But even this would have problems, as it isn't going to handle like a real car due to having a significantly lower mass and would still be dangerous if it drives over someone. They can use an electric tourist trolley, such as the Cushman Shuttle 6. Back when I worked as a yard attendant for a long-term parking lot, the facility had an electric tourist trolley; if the other staffers weren't using it to shuttle people back and forth to their cars, I used it to tow the trailer with the air compressor and other items I needed to service the cars on the lot. It wasn't anything as fancy as the one I linked you to, but it was a good machine. IIRC, it had three benches (two rear-facing) in addition to the front captain's chairs. As you can imagine, it was as long as a compact (give or take), which makes it a reasonable substitute for the myth. I could get the thing to about 10 - 15 MPH or so (which was a good thing, as I had to go out on the open road for a bit to access the lot) and could take tight corners at speed if I was careful. If the MBs could get such a vehicle, then they'd have a comparatively safe "analog" for a compact car.
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Post by maxman on Nov 25, 2012 5:11:51 GMT
Cowcatcher?
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 25, 2012 10:17:41 GMT
Getting an idea.....
Get someone to run a course "As if being chased"..... Get that person to dodge round a few corners, run zig-zag, etc. Then get a car to run EXACTLY the same course, maybe map it out with Cones or disposable cardboard poles.....
Run the video of both runs overlaid and see exactly when the car catches up with the running person?.... (If at all?...)
Maybe a bit too simple?.... what do you think?....
By the way, in an "Urban" environment, my money is on the guy who knows his surroundings... as far as I can remember, most car drivers dont think of driving in three dimensions, and quickly hopping over a low wall or up a flight of narrow steps, through a building, or simply double back where the car cant turn?.... I know of a few "parkor" Free Runners who can find paths that would make a cat think twice.......
Top Gear set them a challenge to beat a small car across the city of Liverpool.... They won.
Of course, this depends on the skill and ability of the person, not the driver...
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