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Post by mrfatso on Oct 2, 2019 17:19:29 GMT
Yes it was the scene where They hang depleted power cells on the wall of the wardroom, along with other similar cells. The fact they had managed to deplete what are normally easily recharged devices showed how heavy the fighting had been in. my impression was more that they were something that usually had sufficient capacity that replacing them was a matter of routine maintenance. I.E. when a ship was in for scheduled service. - sort of a "the fighting is so heavy we're actually having to swap out infinite magazines" note. which is to say, if those are the rechargeable power cells for the phasers, why are they hanging on the wardroom wall instead of in the chargers? This tablet I am on has a rechargeable battery but after a certain number of charging/recharging cycles the amount of charge that they hold decreases, that is why I replaced my old iPad this year after 8years. As you and Cyber say in the previous posts the Defiant had been in such heavy fighting that these phaser cells which normally wear out rarely were burnt through at a rapid rate.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 2, 2019 18:21:13 GMT
I would guess that usually such items would last for years in normal use. Indeed they may potentially last for decades unless you are putting them through very heavy discharge/recharge cycles over extended periods. I'd also guess that usually such components would be broken down in a replicator and the materials recycled. I know that the power cells of a phaser pistol and rifle can be replicated on a ship, but those for a star ship may require larger industrial replicators. I'm actually wondering if the power packs seen might be that size so it is possible for a ship to replicate new ones themselves, easing logistics. As well as allowing redundancy by having far more power storage for the systems than is actually needed, preventing a single hit from disabling the entire capacitor system.
Either way putting them on display here does make sense, it indicates exactly how much use the weapons have seen (They would, presumably, only be a few years old at most with most having been replaced possibly only a few months earlier) and catch the eye of visiting/new crew members if such components were usually recycled.
In regards the main topic of ship combat/design one aspect to keep in mind is recycling. Ships have always, by their nature, needed to find ways to reuse parts and materials to extend the time they can spend at sea. It is likely that the same would have to hold, even more so, for a space ship. As such the range of a ship might actually be an indication as to how much stores it has and how good its recycling systems are. The more advanced the recycling systems are the less internal space would need to be devoted for stores. This in turn would mean that if two sides had comparable technology in all areas except recycling. The one with the better recycling system might have an actual tactical advantage as its ships may be smaller and more compact or just able to carry more weapons for their size.
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 3, 2019 6:21:00 GMT
I see it as analogies of naval gun barrels needing replacement except you would not hand those up on the wardroom wall. The BL 14-inch Mk VII naval gun mounted on British Battleships like King George the Fifth and the Prince of Wales could fire around 350 shots at full charge before it was recommended that the barrels were replaced, other nations using different gun technologies could fire different amounts that’s part of why denial of the shipyards at St Nazarie through Operation Chariot which stopped the Germans refitting Tirpitz was important.
I think in DS-9 they could have recycled those weapons parts if they wanted by Sisko felt than generating an Esprit de Corps was more important. Although it’s also possible with the stripped back design of the Defiant it may not have had the same industrial replicator capacity a Galaxy or Excelsior class, and this may have been done off ship,
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Post by the light works on Oct 3, 2019 13:47:17 GMT
I see it as analogies of naval gun barrels needing replacement except you would not hand those up on the wardroom wall. The BL 14-inch Mk VII naval gun mounted on British Battleships like King George the Fifth and the Prince of Wales could fire around 350 shots at full charge before it was recommended that the barrels were replaced, other nations using different gun technologies could fire different amounts that’s part of why denial of the shipyards at St Nazarie through Operation Chariot which stopped the Germans refitting Tirpitz was important. I think in DS-9 they could have recycled those weapons parts if they wanted by Sisko felt than generating an Esprit de Corps was more important. Although it’s also possible with the stripped back design of the Defiant it may not have had the same industrial replicator capacity a Galaxy or Excelsior class, and this may have been done off ship, back to the tech of it, it may also be that the defiant, since it used pulse phasers instead of the standard phaser, was rougher on those charge cells, too.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 3, 2019 16:51:31 GMT
Both would make sense. As an 'escort' the Defiant wasn't designed for long range exploration, something that would appear to be backed up by the lack of crew facilities normally seen on even small Federation Starships. This in turn may also explain why Starfleet was quite happy to allow the Defiant to be pulled out of storage for deployment on DS9.
My comment about the age of the power cells was actually based on the assumption that the Defiant would be overhauled while docked to DS9 by Chief O'Brian. It's made very clear that this was one of the functions of the station and duties O'Brian had from the moment Starfleet took over the station. For some reason I failed to make the connection that one main reason for this was most likely that the Defiants size and design probably omitted some of the 'industrial' equipment found on larger ships.
This aspect of the Defiant is probably why the design wasn't put into production prior to the Dominion War, or possibly earlier during the war with the Klingons. While it could be argued that the problems with the Defiant being overpowered was the main reason. That a fairly small crew on DS9 were able to not only overcome those problems but unleash the full potential of the design in a very short amount of time would indicate that the original design team should have been able to do the same. More likely is that Starfleet was still fixated on the 'exploration' aspect of their function. And as such didn't see the need for a small ship that lacked the range and flexibility of something bigger, such as the Sabre class which had the same crew compliment, and would be dependent on a base for repair and maintenance. A mixture of actual combat experience and the missions the Defiant successfully undertook even before any serious combat took place must have shown that these ships had far more potential and flexibility than anticipated. The design may not have been ideal for exploration but was capable of performing such missions if needed. It would also be ideal as an armed courier or transport or perform diplomatic missions that didn't require a major ship. Indeed one would assume that the Defiant class ended up being engaged in such tasks after the war helping free up larger designs for other missions - In TNG episode 'Tin Man' Captain DeSoto of the USS Hood*, an Excelsior class ship, claimed that he spent most of his time flying from one star base to another while the big ships (meaning the Galaxy class Enterprise D) got to do all the fun stuff. While this was said with a smile there is probably some truth to the claim. Meaning that a large ship was being tied up on duties that could have been carried out by something smaller. You certainly don't need an Excelsior class ship to ferry one person around*.
(*The USS Hood was first seen, and her Captain mentioned, in Encounter at Farpoint. This was the ship Riker was first officer on prior to serving on the Enterprise. Interestingly in both of her appearances she is only meeting up with the Enterprise to drop off personal. Meaning that she was basically a glorified shuttlecraft on both occasions.)
It does seem likely that the pulse phasers placed a much higher strain on the power cells than traditional phaser array. It seems that standard phasers usually required a two second blast to overload the shields of a target to damage the hull or systems. The Defiant's pulse phasers were firing in quarter to half second blasts and capable of not only overloading the shields but potentially obliterating a target entirely. We also saw the difference in damage potential from First Contact, where the Defiant's strafing run against a Borg cube caused as such damage per 'bolt' as a photon torpedo. So it is highly likely that the power cells were being charged and drained at a considerably higher rate than they had been designed for. It's also telling that redirecting all power from the phasers, even outside combat, considerably increased the Defiant's top speed and required at least a day to fully recharge to allow the weapons to be used again. It certainly gives some idea as to how much energy those cells must contain, and therefore how powerful the pulse phasers must be to warrant that kind of power storage.
Although none of this seems to have much to do with the original question, it does actually show how technology effects the design of combat vehicles and how such ships could/can be used. In Trek much of this is clearly unintentional, but still manages to remain logical and consistent with Trek technology and the cultures of those designing ships. These may seem like minor matters creatively speaking. But one of the oft overlooked, yet important, aspects of creating a fictional world is in developing a 'realistic' and logical background for that world. One which not matter how different things work there is still an understandable logic to them. Even Terry Prachetts Discworld has its own logic and laws which characters or technology have to conform to. It's one of the reasons that, as absurd as the Discworld sounds, it works very very well as a setting.
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Post by wvengineer on Oct 3, 2019 17:37:24 GMT
From a logistics standpoint, it makes sense to use a standard part as much as possible. Between making the design easier, it make maintenance easier for a fleet if you don't need to keep up inventory of different types of the same basic part. Out on the line, it is a lot easier if you can use the same parts in a Defiant class ship as you have for a Galaxy or Excelsior class ship.
As far as how they were able to get the Defiance space worth so fast, I see two possibilities, and likely a mix of the two. 1. When it was first designed, support for the project was low to start and with the initial short comings, they decided to shut it down instead of finishing it out. Likely because there was not a need seen after things been rather quest following Wolf 359. 2. By the time Defiant was brought out of mothballs, there was enough advancements elsewhere to present fixes for the problems that were found with the original design. Add to it O'Brian was a experienced ship/station engineer. He may have had a few tricks up his sleeve that never occurred to the desk bound engineers who did the original design.
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Post by ironhold on Oct 3, 2019 17:55:23 GMT
From a logistics standpoint, it makes sense to use a standard part as much as possible. Between making the design easier, it make maintenance easier for a fleet if you don't need to keep up inventory of different types of the same basic part. Out on the line, it is a lot easier if you can use the same parts in a Defiant class ship as you have for a Galaxy or Excelsior class ship. As far as how they were able to get the Defiance space worth so fast, I see two possibilities, and likely a mix of the two. 1. When it was first designed, support for the project was low to start and with the initial short comings, they decided to shut it down instead of finishing it out. Likely because there was not a need seen after things been rather quest following Wolf 359. 2. By the time Defiant was brought out of mothballs, there was enough advancements elsewhere to present fixes for the problems that were found with the original design. Add to it O'Brian was a experienced ship/station engineer. He may have had a few tricks up his sleeve that never occurred to the desk bound engineers who did the original design. 3. It was a Star Trek series, and the plot called for the main characters to do something absolutely heroic in nature using minimal equipment. I imagine that somehow, O'Brian's repairs involved at least a solid case load of space duct tape.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 3, 2019 22:43:38 GMT
As far as how they were able to get the Defiance space worth so fast, I see two possibilities, and likely a mix of the two. 1. When it was first designed, support for the project was low to start and with the initial short comings, they decided to shut it down instead of finishing it out. Likely because there was not a need seen after things been rather quest following Wolf 359. 2. By the time Defiant was brought out of mothballs, there was enough advancements elsewhere to present fixes for the problems that were found with the original design. Add to it O'Brian was a experienced ship/station engineer. He may have had a few tricks up his sleeve that never occurred to the desk bound engineers who did the original design. 1; The time between Best of Both Worlds and Emissary was 2-2.5 years over which the ship was designed, tested and mothballed. This doesn't fit with the idea that the design lacked support within Star Fleet, indeed even for such a 'small' ship this actually implies the opposite. It is more likely that, as I said, Star Fleet was still fixated on the 'multirole' idea due to its primary stated role being exploration and the design not being viewed as fitting that mandate. Artfully ignoring the simple fact that defending the Federation by force was also part of their mandate. Most likely by the time the Defiant was being tested Star Fleet convinced itself that they could get away with smallish multirole designs such as the Sabre and Steamrunner classes instead. Actual experience showed otherwise. With the Defiant class proving to be more flexible than realized and far more cost-effective in the combat role than anything else Star Fleet had. Indeed it is even possible that one of the reasons Sisko was allowed to take the ship back to DS9 was because there were those within the senior command staff who saw the potential of the design and wanted to give her a chance to show what she could really do. 2; It is clear that at least some of the major issues with the design had been at least partly overcome by the time the ship arrived at DS9 - otherwise Sisko wouldn't have been allowed to take the ship out of spacedock on a potential combat mission. There is, however, validity in the idea that O'Brian might be FAR better suited to dealing with and tweaking the design to bring out her full capabilities in ways the original designers wouldn't have thought of. Unlike most of his contemporary's, including LaForge, O'Brian's engineering experiences were not limited to Star Fleet systems and Star Fleet personal. His duties on the station required him to keep an old Cardassian station running and figuring out ways to make its older systems work with Federation technology. Along with having to be ready to provide technical support for docked craft from god knows how many different species. All this with an engineering crew that didn't just comprise of Star Fleet engineers but also Bajorian personal serving on the station. Coupled with him not actually being an officer, as in attending the fleet academy, this would all add up to someone who wasn't going to be as limited in their thinking as the majority of engineers in the fleet at that time and having lots of opportunities and situations to think beyond normal Star Fleet ways of doing things. As such he would be the perfect person for such an experimental ship and possibly one of the few engineers in the fleet who would have been up to the challenge. This is even without adding in the possibility that some of the changes may have come from his Bajorian engineers who had experiences in dealing with ships that were overpowered. Another example from Trek as to how the logic and history of a setting can actually fit in nicely with things that were done for narrative purposes. In this case both theories would actually enrich the setting. First by showing that Star Fleet could get things wrong by becoming so fixated on what they felt they should be they ignored what they needed to be. second by showing that Sisko was right to ask for the Defiant simply due to O'Brian, and DS9's engineering department as a whole, being the perfect person to finish ironing out the problems with the design.
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Post by wvengineer on Oct 3, 2019 23:51:05 GMT
The Battle of Wolf 359 was in 2366. USS Defiant was launched in 2370 and assigned to DS9 in 2371. So it took about 4 years to design and build her.
After Wolf 359, it was likely they had a version of a brain storm session with ships. They take a bunch of ideas and concepts and see which which one have merit.
Likely Defiant was a bit of a Frankenstine. Take some off the shelf phaser cannons and build a ship around it using whatever you can get easily laying around the shipyard. Being that it is a very small ship by the standards of the day, and a ultra utilitarian design, it was a fast ship to build, as much as a proof of concept as anything.
Once it was launched in 2370, they found out about the limits to the rev A design. When that happened, it was likely shuffled to the back burner. The design had promise, but needed bugs worked out. However, there were other designs that showed more promise when viewed through the sensibilities of the day. So when Sisko asked about an escort for the station, it did make sense. Likely there were designs for fixes that were already in the works and half complete, just needed final tweaks and then built and installed.
DS9 is a pretty good place to do that sort of work. You have a large star base with the manpower and industrial capabilities plus nearby Bajor with its resources. Everything you need to finish the half done designs for the fixes and get them installed. Add to that Bajorain engineers had a knack for figuring out how to make stuff work because of what they experienced in the occupation.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 4, 2019 0:32:17 GMT
Pulse phasers were a brand new experimental technology when the Defiant was launched. They were most likely in the early stages of development at the time of Wolf 359, as it is noted that the Fleet had been working on new anti-Borg weapons. Pulse phasers were likely to be one of these, as they were designed to fire a bolts of energy which contained multiple layers of energy all at different frequencies to prevent the Borg from being able to adapt to a specific frequency. The time period was give as 'a year', so it is unlikely that pulse cannons were in any shape 'off the shelf' at the time. The nature of the weapons would probably also mean it was unsuitable for the ships in service at the time; Too large for Runabouts and requiring too much agility from the ship to be practical on larger ships.
DS9 is, as an aside, not a particularly large station. We see Galaxy class ships docked at least twice and it takes up most of the area, preventing anything close to its size from using the other pylons. Compare to the times we see the Enterprise D docked in a station, where it is clear that the internal dock is more than capable of handling at least half a dozen or so ships of that size with room to spare.
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Post by the light works on Oct 4, 2019 2:39:15 GMT
From a logistics standpoint, it makes sense to use a standard part as much as possible. Between making the design easier, it make maintenance easier for a fleet if you don't need to keep up inventory of different types of the same basic part. Out on the line, it is a lot easier if you can use the same parts in a Defiant class ship as you have for a Galaxy or Excelsior class ship. As far as how they were able to get the Defiance space worth so fast, I see two possibilities, and likely a mix of the two. 1. When it was first designed, support for the project was low to start and with the initial short comings, they decided to shut it down instead of finishing it out. Likely because there was not a need seen after things been rather quest following Wolf 359. 2. By the time Defiant was brought out of mothballs, there was enough advancements elsewhere to present fixes for the problems that were found with the original design. Add to it O'Brian was a experienced ship/station engineer. He may have had a few tricks up his sleeve that never occurred to the desk bound engineers who did the original design. as I recall, the biggest complaint was that it was overpowered - which would mean that it probably cut into the safety margins of some combination of control systems, structural integrity fields, and inertial dampeners. I would imagine that some of the sentiment that led to the project getting back-burnered was "that's a warship. the federation doesn't do warships" from the diplomatic ranks. which would mean that a good percentage of what O'brien had up his sleeve was probably was a willingness to reduce safety margins a little bit - or even put in a couple lines of code that throttled back the engines unless the helm specifically asked for emergency power.
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Post by the light works on Oct 4, 2019 2:46:05 GMT
one of the tips I've had from writers writing about writing has been if you make an imaginary universe, to sketch out all the rules for the universe in advance. I.E. in Star wars, ships in hyperspace are isolated from each other, but gravity still affects them. in Trek, ships in warp can interact with each other and with the universe.
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Post by ironhold on Oct 4, 2019 5:32:19 GMT
one of the tips I've had from writers writing about writing has been if you make an imaginary universe, to sketch out all the rules for the universe in advance. That works for just about any kind of fiction. Even if you say "this work is taking place in the real world", you're setting the rule that "anything which wouldn't exist in real life doesn't exist here without a *very* good explanation".
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Post by the light works on Oct 4, 2019 8:14:59 GMT
one of the tips I've had from writers writing about writing has been if you make an imaginary universe, to sketch out all the rules for the universe in advance. That works for just about any kind of fiction. Even if you say "this work is taking place in the real world", you're setting the rule that "anything which wouldn't exist in real life doesn't exist here without a *very* good explanation". the difference being that generations of scientists have already sketched out the rules for our universe. but yes, you still want to set down any details you are going to be writing about so you are consistent.
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 4, 2019 12:28:19 GMT
Pulse phasers were a brand new experimental technology when the Defiant was launched. They were most likely in the early stages of development at the time of Wolf 359, as it is noted that the Fleet had been working on new anti-Borg weapons. Pulse phasers were likely to be one of these, as they were designed to fire a bolts of energy which contained multiple layers of energy all at different frequencies to prevent the Borg from being able to adapt to a specific frequency. The time period was give as 'a year', so it is unlikely that pulse cannons were in any shape 'off the shelf' at the time. The nature of the weapons would probably also mean it was unsuitable for the ships in service at the time; Too large for Runabouts and requiring too much agility from the ship to be practical on larger ships. DS9 is, as an aside, not a particularly large station. We see Galaxy class ships docked at least twice and it takes up most of the area, preventing anything close to its size from using the other pylons. Compare to the times we see the Enterprise D docked in a station, where it is clear that the internal dock is more than capable of handling at least half a dozen or so ships of that size with room to spare. Yes DS-9 was not a Space Dock or a Starbase, as Terak Nor it was a relatively minor loading station above one of Cardassias most marginal occupied world, I doubt it was equipped with too much repair equipment really. It’s is more a port like Brixham than Portsmouth harbour.
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 6, 2019 18:53:46 GMT
Terok Nor was, ostensibly, an ore processing facility and trade/supply post. While the station did perform those functions, its primary role was as the administrative center for the Military occupation. As such it was a military outpost capable of supporting those ships assigned to that area; The upper and lower docking pylons could each have a Galor class warship docked there without any problems, unlike the case with the larger Star Fleet ships, and have those ships inside the stations shields if they were raised. It is unclear if the docking ports at the juncture of the upper and lower pylons and those around the outer ring were also capable of docking Galor class ships. Although considering that the Defiant was docked at one of the junction docking ports would probably hint at that being the main function and use of those ports. Giving the Bajor system a potential force of 6-9 Galor Class ships during the occupation. To me that seems like a reasonable figure, assuming ships were rotated through patrols and at least one or two ships were kept at or close to the station as an emergency reaction force.
This setup would also match what we know about the stations layout and life during the occupation. The outer ring was for worker habitation with the processing facilities located within the pylons. By placing docking ports at either end of the pylons, and also at the end of the bridges connecting the outer and inner rings, it would allow the Cardassians to unload troops at key strategic points to contain any uprisings.
As a military base the (future) DS9 would have needed to be capable of supporting those ships assigned to the Bajor sector. We also know that the station had the capability of repairing even heavy damage to the station itself, being able to fully repair one of the pylons when a Jem'Hada team blew it in half without any indication that they had to call on outside help. Even as early as season 1 the station takes heavy damage on occasion and is able to repair itself without calling on outside help, even from Bajor; which doesn't seem to have been in any position to offer any such help at that point anyway. This is also a point at which the Federation hadn't got around to upgrading the station, something that other than the Enterprise D making a quick visit shortly after Star Fleet took over running the station doesn't seem to have done until the Dominion appeared. So much of the repair equipment, which was also being used to repair and maintain visiting ships, must have been already been on the station.
Trivia; The original design for Deep Space Nine had the pylons curving outwards from the station. This was changed fairly late on simply because they felt that the pylons curving towards the station looked better.
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Post by the light works on Oct 7, 2019 0:53:38 GMT
Terok Nor was, ostensibly, an ore processing facility and trade/supply post. While the station did perform those functions, its primary role was as the administrative center for the Military occupation. As such it was a military outpost capable of supporting those ships assigned to that area; The upper and lower docking pylons could each have a Galor class warship docked there without any problems, unlike the case with the larger Star Fleet ships, and have those ships inside the stations shields if they were raised. It is unclear if the docking ports at the juncture of the upper and lower pylons and those around the outer ring were also capable of docking Galor class ships. Although considering that the Defiant was docked at one of the junction docking ports would probably hint at that being the main function and use of those ports. Giving the Bajor system a potential force of 6-9 Galor Class ships during the occupation. To me that seems like a reasonable figure, assuming ships were rotated through patrols and at least one or two ships were kept at or close to the station as an emergency reaction force. This setup would also match what we know about the stations layout and life during the occupation. The outer ring was for worker habitation with the processing facilities located within the pylons. By placing docking ports at either end of the pylons, and also at the end of the bridges connecting the outer and inner rings, it would allow the Cardassians to unload troops at key strategic points to contain any uprisings. As a military base the (future) DS9 would have needed to be capable of supporting those ships assigned to the Bajor sector. We also know that the station had the capability of repairing even heavy damage to the station itself, being able to fully repair one of the pylons when a Jem'Hada team blew it in half without any indication that they had to call on outside help. Even as early as season 1 the station takes heavy damage on occasion and is able to repair itself without calling on outside help, even from Bajor; which doesn't seem to have been in any position to offer any such help at that point anyway. This is also a point at which the Federation hadn't got around to upgrading the station, something that other than the Enterprise D making a quick visit shortly after Star Fleet took over running the station doesn't seem to have done until the Dominion appeared. So much of the repair equipment, which was also being used to repair and maintain visiting ships, must have been already been on the station. Trivia; The original design for Deep Space Nine had the pylons curving outwards from the station. This was changed fairly late on simply because they felt that the pylons curving towards the station looked better. happened to stumble across a youtube video called something to the effect of "why movie and TV swords are always wrong." I expected a general rant about ignorant directors and producers, and it was actually a clear explanation of the logistics involved in making movie weapons, and the problems faced in trying to make a realistic weapon that will still work with the action in filming; and yes, changes that foce other changes that force other changes, and the "because I think it will be cooler" factor. - so yes, having upper docking pylons turned inwards where ships have to be careful not to hit each other when docking or undocking because it looks cooler and then trying to come up with an excuse is a thing (it's a pretty good bet in an attack, any functional ships would want to be clear and under way, rather than trusting to the station's shields.)
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