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Post by rmc on Jan 15, 2022 21:09:51 GMT
Imagine with an open mind that there exists this discreet, seemingly magical ability to deny a sleeper the ability to get beyond hypnagogia.
Oh, they can doze all they like. They can even remain completely awake if they want to, but once they truly begin to lose consciousness all bets are off: the system detects the hypnagogic state and the sleeper is roused just so.
Perhaps it's a low-pitched, single thump that has been fine-tuned to this particular individual's subconscious sense of awareness. Or, maybe some sort of other impulse. Maybe, electromagnetic. Maybe a whiff of gaseous methamphetamine. Whatever. It is done at that moment where, once awake, the sleeper has no memory of being roused specifically. They just awake mysteriously. No explanation for it. Or so it seems. Or, worse, the level of alertness isn't complete wakefulness, but rather just that notch above sleep: going from truly sleeping to just dozing again. Over and over. All night long.
At any rate, there is the need for feedback from the individual without the individual knowing that they are in communication with the assailant. Perhaps video cameras that the sleeper is unaware of. Perhaps sensitive microphones. Or, perhaps a smart speaker that has been tweaked in order to detect a somewhat distant heartbeat. Whatever it is it lets the system know when it successfully roused the victim. Then it knows to remain utterly quiet again. Maybe for another hour. Maybe for fifteen minutes. Whatever amount of time before the system picks up on the tell tale signs of hypnagogia, whatever they are: heartbeat? Breathing? Brainwaves? Whatever.
In the wrong hands (and basically who else's hands would something like this be in?) what damage to the human brain could ultimately be inflicted?
Thinking you slept, but actually were denied deep, true sleep each and every time you ever went there. And, you have no idea about it, other than this odd headache and constant yawning all day.
Anyway, does denied deep sleep sound any different to denied total sleep?
I'd think the utter confusion part and not knowing something was ar work or that even something needed to be done would in itself be a mysterious, creepy component.
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Post by wvengineer on Jan 15, 2022 21:32:00 GMT
The Star Trek TNG episode Night Terrors (S4E17) has something like this as a plot point. Crew members cannot enter REM sleep due to space-thing-of-the-week. Crew members slow go crazy due to unto getting real rest. memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Night_Terrors_(episode) |
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Post by the light works on Jan 16, 2022 2:22:27 GMT
the symptoms would probably be similar to the symptoms of fibromyalgia; which is, in layman's terms, basically limiting the ability of the patient to have restful sleep. it would also have similar symptoms to severe sleep apnea, as much as preventing proper restful sleep.
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Post by rmc on Jan 16, 2022 15:27:44 GMT
That's right. The degree and manner of sleep deprivation has debated effects. In one camp, there are the "no sleep makes your brain eat itself over time": www.wionews.com/science/not-sleeping-enough-your-brain-might-be-eating-itself-319676And, there are the "brain eats itself to a tiny degree all the time anyway" camp too: www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/does-the-brain-eat-itself/But, I think the main arguement for the first camp is that longterm absence of sleep causes this otherwise natural process to become needlessly ramped up. Such that it basically clears your brain of synapses, and by "clearing" I do not mean in a good, or pleasant way!! On the other hand, should the victim pick up on the fact that something is very wrong, let's say waking up over and over with sweat and high heartrate causes them to research their situation and they set up video cameras to record their sleep. If they figure noises are disturbing their sleep they may elect to wear earplugs, or earmuffs. But, noise reduction is usually just that: noise reduction, and not total elimination. Should the victim have become subconsciously alarmed at the sudden sound (high heartrate) they may be unable to calm themselves from this point forward whenever inexplicably aroused to the point of complete wakefulness. In some sense, they've become brainwashed to react to even the slightest hint of the same noise. A bit like hypnotic suggestion. Then it becomes a situation where the problem has been reduced from the original one, never really sleeping at all to now just being repetitively awoken from small periods of very short sleeping. Broken sleep patterns are nothing new. We have to be able to rear young, and that process is inherent with nights of disrupted sleep. The real problem with sleep disturbances is if the arousal is accompanied by terror. The glutamate and cortisol surge with the adrenal response is what, apparently, tears away at the myelin sheath of the neuron and slowly remodels the brain with white matter lesions by way of intense anxiety. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4677120/www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627319307780Whereas people like Edison declared that they intentionally woke themselves over and over in order to experience mild hallucinations during hypnagogia. www.edisonmuckers.org/how-thomas-edison-napped-his-way-to-success/Meanwhile people like Tesla and even Davinci chose to break up sleep into short bursts in what is termed polyphasic sleep patterns. No damage to the brain that way, it's thought, because terror isn't involved when purposely waking oneself, or so that's the way it's supposed to turn out. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleepBasically, if awoken alarmingly so, you need to calm down quickly. Thus calmatives. Sleeping elsewhere is naturally preferable. But, if the victim is unable to move away for stiff financial reasons, he or she may become concerned that ducking out, getting away from time to time might embolden the assailant, showing that the attack is working. Meanwhile, the assailant might be completely aware already how well it is working because of the sophistication of the equipment he is using. And, this includes the potential that the assailant can see the use of earmuffs and may be able to counter merely by slightly increased noise. More on possible equipment that could actually be used in real life now a little later on. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 16, 2022 21:19:27 GMT
I guess the next question would be is there any way to quantify evidence of the effects of such interruptions.
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Post by rmc on Jan 17, 2022 12:59:44 GMT
Evidence of the effects stated?
You mean like is there evidence of synapses being cleared? And some way to get a number (quantify) the number of synapses cleared?
I think the brain studies were done on mice. So I'm guessing your question is something along the lines of did they cut a mouse open, count how many synapses it had originally, then sew him back together and then conduct sleep deprivation experiments on it in order to open it up again so as to count the number of synapses missing?
I'd guess, in reality, they observed a normal synapse count for the average mouse. Probably many many post mortem observations. And then noticed this number dropped significantly after many tests, having denied sleep or something.
To quantify evidence, to hang a number on your evidence, is always the tricky bit.
I would like to know exactly how it is that they made these determinations myself.
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Post by the light works on Jan 17, 2022 16:30:09 GMT
Evidence of the effects stated? You mean like is there evidence of synapses being cleared? And some way to get a number (quantify) the number of synapses cleared? I think the brain studies were done on mice. So I'm guessing your question is something along the lines of did they cut a mouse open, count how many synapses it had originally, then sew him back together and then conduct sleep deprivation experiments on it in order to open it up again so as to count the number of synapses missing? I'd guess, in reality, they observed a normal synapse count for the average mouse. Probably many many post mortem observations. And then noticed this number dropped significantly after many tests, having denied sleep or something. To quantify evidence, to hang a number on your evidence, is always the tricky bit. I would like to know exactly how it is that they made these determinations myself. the logical extension of "how would it harm a person if somebody was systematically doing this to them?" is "how do we prove they are doing it?" from my experience, sleep deprivation has some definite effects, but it's also pretty obviously connected to sleep deprivation. but your scenario seems to be based on finding ways to cause sleep deprivation without the victim being aware that it's going on. on one hand it leaves me speculating that the scenario is inspired by your problems with your bad neighbor. on another hand, it leaves me thinking it could be a plot point in a science fiction story. |
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Post by rmc on Jan 17, 2022 17:30:29 GMT
Proving it is being done likely comes by way of knowing how it is done.
Without knowing that, or even having a good guess, it's virtually the same as describing magic. And just as unbelievable.
Personally, I cannot think of a topic an assailant would enjoy more for his victims to embark upon than any discussion of what is actually happening to them. Utterances along the lines of, "someone is tracking me through the walls" would be instantly met with, "get mental help, and fast!" ... if you were to get a response at all. Meanwhile, the assailant would be giggling like a little schoolgirl.
Unless there exists, today, a means that is able to track someone, and track someone down to their heartbeat more then likely, and through walls no less, trying to debate if it is actually happening to someone, namely me, isn't likely to be a welcome part of this search for a hypothetical means to do it.
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Post by the light works on Jan 17, 2022 18:53:02 GMT
Proving it is being done likely comes by way of knowing how it is done. Without knowing that, or even having a good guess, it's virtually the same as describing magic. And just as unbelievable. Personally, I cannot think of a topic an assailant would enjoy more for his victims to embark upon than any discussion of what is actually happening to them. Utterances along the lines of, "someone is tracking me through the walls" would be instantly met with, "get mental help, and fast!" ... if you were to get a response at all. Meanwhile, the assailant would be giggling like a little schoolgirl. Unless there exists, today, a means that is able to track someone, and track someone down to their heartbeat more then likely, and through walls no less, trying to debate if it is actually happening to someone, namely me, isn't likely to be a welcome part of this search for a hypothetical means to do it. now I'm wondering if it could be tracked through a monitoring system like is used in sleep studies for sleep apnea. - separating for a moment from the cause of it, and wondering if there is a way to monitor and diagnose that it is happening at all which comes back to my first question of what evidence could be used to diagnose that the problem exists - assuming it won't be an autopsy. I'm seeing several questons in the general topic. the ones that I'm intrigued most by are, 1: what harmful effects would it have? 2: how would one assess or diagnose the problem based on evidence? (I.E. described symptoms, symptoms found by testing) |
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Post by rmc on Jan 17, 2022 19:31:52 GMT
Monitoring might be as "simple" as a sensor that has been tuned to the victim's heart behaviors at the time that the victim experiences hypnagogia. Once able to discern that the victim is in a state of hypnagogia, a simple rap on the wall might be enough to start them back out of hypnagogia. Once alert, if awoken, there is no knowledge as to why they awoke. Heck, over time, one might be able to find some minimum rapping knock able to achieve wakefulness, such that it be quiet enough so as to be argued simple building noise. Perhaps it is as simple as getting the heart pattern identified, then having, say, a green light glow once the victim enters hypnagogia. No green light: victim is awake. Green light: victim entering hypnagogia. I've begun searching. There are technologies available, (basically they exist, but how readily available, who knows), that could do something like this, or at least bits and pieces of it: (heavier emphasis on the articles at bottom) Ranger R. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range-RXV400. Smart Speaker reprogrammed, hears distant heart. www.nature.com/articles/s42003-021-01824-9Microphones able to listen through walls. www.endoacustica.com/listen-through-walls-contact-microphones.php# |
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Post by rmc on Jan 17, 2022 20:08:45 GMT
An individual has a particular pattern to their heart rate when beginning to sleep according to the following article. If someone were to listen at a distance, over time they might be able to pick out when YOU specifically are asleep just by hearing your heart noises: ouraring.com/blog/heart-rate-during-sleep/So, the equipment may be more along the lines of the above-mentioned Smart Speaker (one post up) and the ability to listen for these patterns. |
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Post by rmc on Jan 17, 2022 20:24:40 GMT
Since a microphone or Smart Speaker is listening to your heartbeat, trying to discern when you are actually sleeping, just run a fan to mask your body's noises!
Oh really?
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Post by the light works on Jan 17, 2022 20:44:51 GMT
so from looking closer, hypnagogia is the transitional state between drowsiness and REM sleep.
If I am understanding correctly, it is not important, in and of itself, but by disrupting it, a person would effectively be denying the victim REM sleep. if there is a characteristic heart rhythm change between drowsiness, hypnagogia, and REM sleep, then a wearable heart monitor could be made that would detect that the transition was being disrupted. which answers my question of "can the victim quantify that the problem is happening?"
I'm also a bit curious as to whether there would be blood chemistry changes. a quick google search says yes to that, as well. I don't feel like looking right now to see if there are specific blood tests to identify lack of sleep. I'm going to guess there may be, but other diagnostic methods give better information.
so to take it the other way - assuming you want a malefactor to be doing this to an unsuspecting victim, and doesn't have access to use drugs, you want the malefactor to be able to do two things: first, be able to know when the victim is falling asleep. and second to be able to interrupt the sleep without the victim recognizing it as a purposeful interruption.
relying on audible noise would be a risky strategy, because if the noise roused the victim, even using random environmental noises would result in the victim perceiving it as a pattern over time. (I.E. seeing a pattern where there is none)
I assume you are aiming at a question of causing the victim to be sleep deprived without the victim realizing they are being sleep deprived. rather than the person deciding that something in their environment is disrupting their sleep and trying to fix it.
also, relying on super sensors would be complex and difficult. it might be easier and as effective to look for the victim to be in a position of repose and then do the stimulation more or less randomly.
and now I am interested in other applications of the concept. I.E. instead of causing direct harm, the procedure is used to manipulate the victim's perceptions or behavior. for example, you want to cause a person to have an untraceable car crash, you interfere with their sleep enough to leave them driving drowsy. or if you want to interfere with a prisoner's perception of time, you use it to interfere with their sleep patterns, or on the less nefarious end of the scale, you have a patient with some form of sleep disorder, and use it to condition them to have a more consistent sleep pattern.
hope you don't mind me ranging a bit afield. it's an idea I haven't ever considered, and so my brain wants to experiment with the concept a bit.
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Post by the light works on Jan 17, 2022 20:47:14 GMT
Since a microphone or Smart Speaker is listening to your heartbeat, trying to discern when you are actually sleeping, just run a fan to mask your body's noises! Oh really? I think I've mentioned that the problem with white noise is it increases the total sound level in the room. I took a reading once in my bedroom, and as I recall it was 70 db. |
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Post by rmc on Jan 17, 2022 21:08:35 GMT
I wouldn't discount knocking noises too quickly.
If a number of people were involved doing this to someone, (and it would likely need to involve a small team in order to have shifts or what-have-you able to watch that the victim hasn't gotten a nap in during the day, because the scenario I'm creating here is geared toward achieving total lack of deep sleep, and the before-outlined synapses clearing), members of the team might be neighbors who insist that "this ol building certainly makes some loud popping noises!" any time you mentioned odd knocking sounds.
Also, if you catch someone asleep and knock once just loud enough to wake them, they'll actually have NO memory of the knocking itself. It wouldn't be until they recorded their sleep before they'd witness the problem. And, like I say, people insisting you're just hearing things or it's only normal building noises is going to be the forefront of a very viable defense against "your word"
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Post by the light works on Jan 17, 2022 23:20:24 GMT
I wouldn't discount knocking noises too quickly. If a number of people were involved doing this to someone, (and it would likely need to involve a small team in order to have shifts or what-have-you able to watch that the victim hasn't gotten a nap in during the day, because the scenario I'm creating here is geared toward achieving total lack of deep sleep, and the before-outlined synapses clearing), members of the team might be neighbors who insist that "this ol building certainly makes some loud popping noises!" any time you mentioned odd knocking sounds. Also, if you catch someone asleep and knock once just loud enough to wake them, they'll actually have NO memory of the knocking itself. It wouldn't be until they recorded their sleep before they'd witness the problem. And, like I say, people insisting you're just hearing things or it's only normal building noises is going to be the forefront of a very viable defense against "your word" . yes, it would need to be automated or have people working shifts, or the perpetrator would be in the same position as the victim. |
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Post by rmc on Jan 18, 2022 12:04:35 GMT
It could be about snapping up property, I suppose.
It could be some scheme to run off feeble owners; ones who knuckle under fairly easily and give away their condo property for a song.
For instance,... and their could be an element of twisted vigilantism here too, by the way... one lady who lived in the small community of condos, 16 of them together in total, was suffering from the slow progression of dementia.
She started declaring that she heard noises and other things. Pounding sounds, coming up through the floor, and everywhere. Story goes that ultimately she went bad enough that she had to be hauled away to a home.
Rather than keep paying taxes and monthly condo fees while trying to hold out on the market for the highest bid, the family chose to just let it go for about 25 percent less than what it was worth. (Because one of the "team" started working on them for a "quick and painless" deal)
The police had a real time with her before she was removed. She called the police so often, and with nothing ever found, the police just lost a bit of patience with her surprisingly enough and became, well rude and pretty short with her.
It doesn't stop there either. Other condo owners began to tire of her "antics" such that, well, I feel as though rather than cutting her a break for having dementia, they helped drive her off, with her being a "problem" and all that (thus the slight degree of vigilantism I mentioned. Vigilantes driving away a "problem" to make their neighborhood "better")
Rather cold.
Now, the new owners have a discount property that they've fixed up, the neighborhood is "relieved" of the "troublesome old woman" and, I fear, "they've" developed a means for both culling and choosing who will remain as a neighbor of theirs, and also a way to potentially obtain reduced pricing on property.
There is talk of reestablishing rentals within the community. As it is now you are not allowed to rent out your condo. You can own it and actually live in it (the rather vulnerable scenario, apparently). Or, you can own it and have a blood relative live in it.
Basically, if you own AND live inside the condo you own you are exposed to this potential problem, the one where noises appear.
I know that I couldn't move out, continue paying taxes and fees and wait for my condo to sell. My particular unit is a "fixer" one that I over paid for too just to get out of the last neighborhood. There are cash outfits who will pay cash immediately for a condo like this, but that would result in many tens of thousands of dollars being cut from my collection. I'd never get into another unit with what I'd have left, and, thanks to the Equifax breach and my frozen bad credit, I'd never get a loan. Plus, taxes and condo fees each month amount to less than half what rent amounts to out there, and I barely afford my fees and taxes anyway! I'd never be able to off load this condo and then take up renting. For me, this scenario just cannot be!
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Post by wvengineer on Jan 18, 2022 15:04:25 GMT
Trying to design a smart speaker sensitive enough to track someone's sleep seams like taking the hard way. Most smart watches and fitness trackers today include sleep monitoring functions. I would think it would be easier to hack into one of those to your your monitoring info. At least this way you don't have to design and build new hardware.
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Post by the light works on Jan 18, 2022 15:37:08 GMT
I guess the thing to do is record a pattern of systematic harassment and management's refusal to do anything about it, and file suit.
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Post by rmc on Jan 18, 2022 16:06:11 GMT
I guess the thing to do is record a pattern of systematic harassment and management's refusal to do anything about it, and file suit. That's naturally the correct course of action. However, the people who now make up the condo board seem to be most strongly denying anything abnormal happened to the poor woman, insisting most of all that the "paper thin" building is too easy to hear neighbors and the building makes popping noise on it's own. The president lives off campus so to speak. And, not wanting to be sued, it looks to me that being ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the target individual is soundly asleep is a key feature of their technique. Recordings are many. But, a savvy defense can still be made that the thump in the night is somehow natural, or at least on par with day to day living at generally noisy apartments. Random noise is one thing. Being unable to get beyond hypnagogia at the hands of someone intentionally depriving you of it is another. I still believe that understanding how something like this can be done is fundamental to getting more evidence than just patterns and "interesting" recordings. If it were understood how exactly it was done a defense could be made. Once there is defense, then their can be better reconnaissance and from their a suit. |
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