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Post by rmc on Nov 23, 2024 1:22:38 GMT
A sizable amount of power is dedicated to making every interior climate controlled. If you wore a space suit, the condition of the interior climate would be nearly irrelevant. As such, the electricity required to change the interior environment could be saved. Nationwide, this amounts to nearly 20 percent of the power used in general. Naturally, you are likely asking if a person would like to be in a space suit 100 percent of the time. So, there are some solutions to this. For one, turning on climate control for just one room if you get out of the so called space suit. Say, for taking a shower or cleaning the space suit. I'm not going to continue calling it a "space suit". Because it wouldn't be nearly that extreme. Merely a climate control system of some sort, leaning hard on being as comfortable as possible. They have those cool systems, loaded with tubing, where cool water circulates through the garment. Anyway, finding the minimum number of cooling tubes or ducted air systems might make the final "Climate Control Suit" much, much less cumbersome than an actual space suit. So, anyway, a couple of questions come to mind. What would you think would make a good cooling suit (for desert summer) or warming suit (for arctic winter)? Could compressing down HVAC to just that which you personally need in a suit rather than attempting to climate control houses, offices, etc., be a valuable premise? Or, would making individualized climate control suits simply remain far too uncomfortable? If we are to leave earth for places like Mars, wouldn't we need to be accustomed to such suits? Has this argument been proposed before that you know? What are the currently available designs for personalized climate control suits? Given what's currently available with regard to cooling or warming suits, what improvements can we come up with? (To allow greater periods of use) discoveryparts.com/products/chillout-systems-pro-touring-sport-sfi-cooling-shirt |
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Post by the light works on Nov 23, 2024 3:53:01 GMT
there are now battery powered heating garments of various kinds. perhaps thermoelectric tech could be adapted to make a cooling vest. personally, I am starting to wonder if the proliferation of heat pumps might be reaching a point of affecting "urban heat islands" the biggest challenge, as always, is persuading people that "the way we've always done it" isn't always the best way it can be done.
as a side note, I did a low tech trick working on the power plant - at break time, I'd hang my jacket in front of the AC vent, during breaks, and wear it to work in. when the ambient temperature is above your body temperature, insulation helps keep it out.
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 23, 2024 7:14:29 GMT
So you have an office of, let's say 20 people. Is it more efficient to power 20 environmental suits or just cool (or heat) the room.
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Post by rmc on Nov 23, 2024 9:55:24 GMT
So you have an office of, let's say 20 people. Is it more efficient to power 20 environmental suits or just cool (or heat) the room. If we zero in on specific environments instead of looking at it nationally what about when 10 people wearing Climate Control suits step into a non climate controlled elevator? Wouldn't it have been better to have, say, cooled the elevator instead of each person independently? Also, keep in mind, typically today each office worker is more than likely maintaining a home with climate control too even though they themselves are away at work in that office. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 23, 2024 10:43:26 GMT
Elon Musk suddenly realizes he is the king of efficiency and sees a novel way to make such suit far more effective than what's currently available. Does Musk then spend the rest of the year trying to stuff the giant orange man into a custome tailored suit of his own?
Does DJT make Elon king of the Department Of Environmental Suits?
DOES anyone care?
Would forward-thinking Musk want to continue working with the rear-thinking eighties man?
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 23, 2024 13:44:10 GMT
Probably not. Or are we just trying to solve problems that don’t exist. The answer to this, and many other of the world’s problems, is just more plentiful and cheaper energy. And we already know how to do that, but we refuse to. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 23, 2024 14:18:12 GMT
So you have an office of, let's say 20 people. Is it more efficient to power 20 environmental suits or just cool (or heat) the room. here's the critical question. is it more efficient to have each person in their own environmental suit, or to heat the entire office to 80 degrees for desert debbie, then cool it to 50 degrees for tundra tammy, then heat it to 80 degrees for desert debbie, lather, rinse, repeat. (or for desert dan and tundra tommy) the fact of the matter is, that while speculation about individual climate controlled clothing kind of ignores the efficiencies of scale, our low bid cookie cuter approach to making buildings kind of ignores long term efficiency in favor of short term cheapness. when my in laws built their retirement house, they built it well insulated, and the unintended consequence was that they essentially heated it in the winter with the stove and refrigerator. in the summer, a single window air conditioner was sufficient to keep up. but the average modern house is less well insulated than houses in the 90s - because while standards have theoretically increased - builders are cutting corners and sneaking in substandard methods. my 1970s house has 8 inches of fiberglass batts above the ceiling. new houses often have the 2X4 trusses visible in the blown in insulation. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 23, 2024 17:59:25 GMT
Putting a tiny suit onto a baby resulted in a frozen ice cube.
And doing the same to the family cat resulted in a shredded hooman.
And grandpa developed a horrible allergic condition to the suit. So we left him out in the sun.
Problems.
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 23, 2024 20:59:39 GMT
There are other reasons to supply HVAC to a building than just keeping the Bi-Ped occupants content. Like preventing pipes from freezing and electronics from overheating.
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Post by rmc on Nov 23, 2024 21:30:52 GMT
There are other reasons to supply HVAC to a building than just keeping the Bi-Ped occupants content. Like preventing pipes from freezing and electronics from overheating. Miniaturize and localize the required heating or cooling to just the pipes or computers? |
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Post by ironhold on Nov 23, 2024 23:33:04 GMT
there are now battery powered heating garments of various kinds. perhaps thermoelectric tech could be adapted to make a cooling vest. personally, I am starting to wonder if the proliferation of heat pumps might be reaching a point of affecting "urban heat islands" the biggest challenge, as always, is persuading people that "the way we've always done it" isn't always the best way it can be done. as a side note, I did a low tech trick working on the power plant - at break time, I'd hang my jacket in front of the AC vent, during breaks, and wear it to work in. when the ambient temperature is above your body temperature, insulation helps keep it out. The Battletech tabletop RPG actually has cooling vests as part of the lore, and IIRC has had them since the late 1980s. The giant robots at the heart of the game are so inefficient when it comes to heat dissipation that the cockpits can become dangerously hot after a prolonged battle. To help combat this, most pilots wear a vest that has tiny little tubes through which coolant material of some kind (you'd have to check Sarna dot net, the main Battletech fan wiki for details) is allowed to flow. Even then, however, many pilots wear as little as possible in the cockpit, leading to the 1980s and early 1990s being chock-full of cheesecake and beefcake artwork depicting pilots in combat boots, budgie smugglers / panties, the vest, the helmet, and often nothing much else. I would imagine that the "tiny tubes of coolant material" solution the game presents would be somewhat inefficient and possibly even dangerous depending upon what the coolant material was. But for when the game was first developed, this was bleeding edge thinking. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 23, 2024 23:37:49 GMT
there are now battery powered heating garments of various kinds. perhaps thermoelectric tech could be adapted to make a cooling vest. personally, I am starting to wonder if the proliferation of heat pumps might be reaching a point of affecting "urban heat islands" the biggest challenge, as always, is persuading people that "the way we've always done it" isn't always the best way it can be done. as a side note, I did a low tech trick working on the power plant - at break time, I'd hang my jacket in front of the AC vent, during breaks, and wear it to work in. when the ambient temperature is above your body temperature, insulation helps keep it out. The Battletech tabletop RPG actually has cooling vests as part of the lore, and IIRC has had them since the late 1980s. The giant robots at the heart of the game are so inefficient when it comes to heat dissipation that the cockpits can become dangerously hot after a prolonged battle. To help combat this, most pilots wear a vest that has tiny little tubes through which coolant material of some kind (you'd have to check Sarna dot net, the main Battletech fan wiki for details) is allowed to flow. Even then, however, many pilots wear as little as possible in the cockpit, leading to the 1980s and early 1990s being chock-full of cheesecake and beefcake artwork depicting pilots in combat boots, budgie smugglers / panties, the vest, the helmet, and often nothing much else. I would imagine that the "tiny tubes of coolant material" solution the game presents would be somewhat inefficient and possibly even dangerous depending upon what the coolant material was. But for when the game was first developed, this was bleeding edge thinking. I recall playing in the 80s, and heat dissipation was a major element of strategy. you have to balance between propulsion, armament, and heat sinks. let your mech overheat, and you're out of the fight. I believe, at the time, some car racing had the cooling vest technology in place. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 23, 2024 23:57:27 GMT
One of the problems with the current generation of cooling vests, besides the fact that they are rather bulky and require to be tethered to an external equipment pack of some type, when used in humid environments, they collect condensate and "sweat." It's bad enough that you are sweating from the heat and now your clothing is also sweating.
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Post by rmc on Nov 24, 2024 0:56:08 GMT
One of the problems with the current generation of cooling vests, besides the fact that they are rather bulky and require to be tethered to an external equipment pack of some type, when used in humid environments, they collect condensate and "sweat." It's bad enough that you are sweating from the heat and now your clothing is also sweating. Specifically today I'm unimpressed by so called wicking material. However, 2007, as I was preparing for the "Iraqi Surge" training in Texas while in the U.S. Army, I was issued t-shirts meant for wearing in Iraq or Afghanistan. I have been the sort of man who sometimes showered twice per day (morning/evening). While wearing this particular "wicking" desert t-shirt, we got caught up in a bit of intense training and before I knew it we had gone about two days, in the Texas heat without bathing. I felt perfectly fine. I was sold on the idea that wicking technology had come of age. But, since that period, I haven't found similar quality t-shirts. I have one from 2007 stored away, so I CAN compare the latest rage in regard to wicking shirts. All of them are horrible in comparison. I have NO IDEA why I can't find wicking shirts as good as those Army issue ones from 2007. Anyway, my point is there is material (somewhere) able to do unexpected levels of wicking away moisture even in humid climates. At least I felt as though Texas in the summer qualifies as "humid". It continues to be my fear that something like "Chinese knockoffs" have currently left most with no good impression of what is actually possible in regard to wicking. Still, to your point, a better design than what is currently available might be necessary. One thing I've wondered about (and this may not address wicking or sweating) is the fact that medics target placing ice packs under the armpits, around the neck or head, and even the groin in order to maximize body cooling quickly. I see that most cooling suits are merely tubes running along the chest and stomach. Anyway. Yes. Redesign and improvements are a must before expecting anyone to hang around all day in some half-assed space suit. Ducted air flow keeps popping up in my mind. But, as you say, bulkiness is already a consideration. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 24, 2024 2:59:23 GMT
One of the problems with the current generation of cooling vests, besides the fact that they are rather bulky and require to be tethered to an external equipment pack of some type, when used in humid environments, they collect condensate and "sweat." It's bad enough that you are sweating from the heat and now your clothing is also sweating. Specifically today I'm unimpressed by so called wicking material. However, 2007, as I was preparing for the "Iraqi Surge" training in Texas while in the U.S. Army, I was issued t-shirts meant for wearing in Iraq or Afghanistan. I have been the sort of man who sometimes showered twice per day (morning/evening). While wearing this particular "wicking" desert t-shirt, we got caught up in a bit of intense training and before I knew it we had gone about two days, in the Texas heat without bathing. I felt perfectly fine. I was sold on the idea that wicking technology had come of age. But, since that period, I haven't found similar quality t-shirts. I have one from 2007 stored away, so I CAN compare the latest rage in regard to wicking shirts. All of them are horrible in comparison. I have NO IDEA why I can't find wicking shirts as good as those Army issue ones from 2007. Anyway, my point is there is material (somewhere) able to do unexpected levels of wicking away moisture even in humid climates. At least I felt as though Texas in the summer qualifies as "humid". It continues to be my fear that something like "Chinese knockoffs" have currently left most with no good impression of what is actually possible in regard to wicking. Still, to your point, a better design than what is currently available might be necessary. One thing I've wondered about (and this may not address wicking or sweating) is the fact that medics target placing ice packs under the armpits, around the neck or head, and even the groin in order to maximize body cooling quickly. I see that most cooling suits are merely tubes running along the chest and stomach. Anyway. Yes. Redesign and improvements are a must before expecting anyone to hang around all day in some half-assed space suit. Ducted air flow keeps popping up in my mind. But, as you say, bulkiness is already a consideration. I still lean towards thermoelectric, possibly with a motion pumped distribution system if necessary. but you're right, that if you need to do urgent cooling, you go for the high blood flow areas. although the recommendation for cooling fiefighters is to make chairs with reservoirs in the arms, so they can put their forearms in cold water. as greg says, one factor in making a climate suit is portability. as I said, battery heated garments are already out there - it is the cooling that is still bulky. as far as the fact the building still needs climate control - the suit could make a 10 degree shift, allowing the building to have a larger variance from "room temperature" |
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Post by rmc on Nov 24, 2024 17:59:42 GMT
Specifically today I'm unimpressed by so called wicking material. However, 2007, as I was preparing for the "Iraqi Surge" training in Texas while in the U.S. Army, I was issued t-shirts meant for wearing in Iraq or Afghanistan. I have been the sort of man who sometimes showered twice per day (morning/evening). While wearing this particular "wicking" desert t-shirt, we got caught up in a bit of intense training and before I knew it we had gone about two days, in the Texas heat without bathing. I felt perfectly fine. I was sold on the idea that wicking technology had come of age. But, since that period, I haven't found similar quality t-shirts. I have one from 2007 stored away, so I CAN compare the latest rage in regard to wicking shirts. All of them are horrible in comparison. I have NO IDEA why I can't find wicking shirts as good as those Army issue ones from 2007. Anyway, my point is there is material (somewhere) able to do unexpected levels of wicking away moisture even in humid climates. At least I felt as though Texas in the summer qualifies as "humid". It continues to be my fear that something like "Chinese knockoffs" have currently left most with no good impression of what is actually possible in regard to wicking. Still, to your point, a better design than what is currently available might be necessary. One thing I've wondered about (and this may not address wicking or sweating) is the fact that medics target placing ice packs under the armpits, around the neck or head, and even the groin in order to maximize body cooling quickly. I see that most cooling suits are merely tubes running along the chest and stomach. Anyway. Yes. Redesign and improvements are a must before expecting anyone to hang around all day in some half-assed space suit. Ducted air flow keeps popping up in my mind. But, as you say, bulkiness is already a consideration. I still lean towards thermoelectric, possibly with a motion pumped distribution system if necessary. but you're right, that if you need to do urgent cooling, you go for the high blood flow areas. although the recommendation for cooling fiefighters is to make chairs with reservoirs in the arms, so they can put their forearms in cold water. as greg says, one factor in making a climate suit is portability. as I said, battery heated garments are already out there - it is the cooling that is still bulky. as far as the fact the building still needs climate control - the suit could make a 10 degree shift, allowing the building to have a larger variance from "room temperature" Since Greg and I were just mentioning the problem where cooling tubes can get damp in humid environments, I am getting confused why you refocus on leaning toward "thermoelectric"... that sounds like heating. Anyway, even with regard to heating I'm not remembering what exactly "thermoelectric" is, other than perhaps a heating element? |
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Post by the light works on Nov 25, 2024 1:48:37 GMT
I still lean towards thermoelectric, possibly with a motion pumped distribution system if necessary. but you're right, that if you need to do urgent cooling, you go for the high blood flow areas. although the recommendation for cooling fiefighters is to make chairs with reservoirs in the arms, so they can put their forearms in cold water. as greg says, one factor in making a climate suit is portability. as I said, battery heated garments are already out there - it is the cooling that is still bulky. as far as the fact the building still needs climate control - the suit could make a 10 degree shift, allowing the building to have a larger variance from "room temperature" Since Greg and I were just mentioning the problem where cooling tubes can get damp in humid environments, I am getting confused why you refocus on leaning toward "thermoelectric"... that sounds like heating. Anyway, even with regard to heating I'm not remembering what exactly "thermoelectric" is, other than perhaps a heating element? back around the turn of the century, they had solid state DC thermoelectric devices. if you ran a current through the device in one direction, the thermoelectric device produced heat, and if you ran it in the other direction, it would absorb heat. I had a 12V refrigerator I used when I was living in a van down by the river. it just had the thermoelectric plate and a circulating fan. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 25, 2024 4:31:47 GMT
Since Greg and I were just mentioning the problem where cooling tubes can get damp in humid environments, I am getting confused why you refocus on leaning toward "thermoelectric"... that sounds like heating. Anyway, even with regard to heating I'm not remembering what exactly "thermoelectric" is, other than perhaps a heating element? back around the turn of the century, they had solid state DC thermoelectric devices. if you ran a current through the device in one direction, the thermoelectric device produced heat, and if you ran it in the other direction, it would absorb heat. I had a 12V refrigerator I used when I was living in a van down by the river. it just had the thermoelectric plate and a circulating fan. Wow! That really does sound like the way to go! Nice idea! Seems like it beats lugging around a pool of cool fluid to pump through tiny tubes! I still wonder if the correct wicking material can be found. Because, as GTCGreg has mentioned, once ANYTHING cools down in a humid environment, condensation will be a thing. Wicking away that condensate seems like a continuing concern. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 25, 2024 4:39:36 GMT
The thermal electric cells get hot on one side and cold on the other. The side that gets hot, gets very hot because it is dissipating both the heat that it is transferring from the cold side, and also the heat generated by the electrical current through the device. You have to have a rather large heat sink on the hot side in order to get cooling on the cold side. Reversing the current, just reverses which side gets hot and which side gets cold. You still have the condensation problem on the cold side in high humidity environment. As far as energy efficiency, thermal electric cells are not nearly as efficient as compressor based systems. Just a lot smaller.
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Post by the light works on Nov 25, 2024 5:04:24 GMT
The thermal electric cells get hot on one side and cold on the other. The side that gets hot, gets very hot because it is dissipating both the heat that it is transferring from the cold side, and also the heat generated by the electrical current through the device. You have to have a rather large heat sink on the hot side in order to get cooling on the cold side. Reversing the current, just reverses which side gets hot and which side gets cold. You still have the condensation problem on the cold side in high humidity environment. As far as energy efficiency, thermal electric cells are not nearly as efficient as compressor based systems. Just a lot smaller. well, it's smaller and lighter that we'd want. but the waste heat would be an issue. - not that I recall it being an issue with the mini fridge. |
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