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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 12, 2013 12:43:09 GMT
A major part of any military campaign is keeping coded signals safe from your enemy decoding your messages. Perhaps to my generation the breaking of the German Enigma codes by the allies in WW2. was the most significant achievement in code breaking. Part luck part the work of some HT thinking mathematicians, who saved the lives of thousands. Perhaps some form of demonstration by the crew where they have to decode a message to prevent certain destruction of? ?. They have to enter a disarming code on an alpha numeric keyboard. They have a message12441102811370111187 for example to decode and enter.
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Post by the light works on Jan 12, 2013 17:24:55 GMT
hmmm sounds more intellectually interesting than visually interesting - which would put it in the category of "not what Discovery is looking for." though an overview of encoding methods would be interesting as a program in its own right.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 12, 2013 17:41:58 GMT
I see two problems;
First is that code breaking is a professional job, and not something any of the MB's are remotely qualified to attempt. So they'd have to bring in an expert - and they tend to be very wary of expert-related myths where the expert would end up having to be on screen more than the cast.
Second, as Light noted, this isn't a very visual idea - and being able to show the process in a visually interesting way is one of the basic requirements of ideas. (I recall making a joke on Disco about them having an episode where we watch Grant do calculus for 20 minutes - this wouldn't be that different.)
That is not to say that code-breaking or something similar could not be used in some context - say a 'treasure hunter' themed episode - just that it might be very difficult to come up with something that is going to be suitable for the show.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 13, 2013 4:41:34 GMT
Not unexpected responses, I wasn't expecting the idea to be just rubber stamped I had the idea the other day and if it can be turned into something useful why not.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 13, 2013 16:34:42 GMT
There are a lot of times in films ect where someone breaks a code of some sort in about 5 seconds. So on its own its a perfectly valid myth - just one that I'm having trouble envisioning as a 'TV Friendly' segment for the show.
Off the top of my head there are two variations that they *might* be able to use;
Electronic locks; A; Is it really possible to get/guess the combination to an electronic keypad? In TV/Films heroes sometimes use various tricks to find the number, usually this is a variation of dusting the keypad to see which numbers have been pressed and then guessing the combination from there. (The James Bond film 'Moonraker' had a variation where the keypad used tones which allowed Bond to guess the code).
B; Can you really make a device that will crack an electronic lock? Either by overriding it, rapidly selecting numbers until it hits the right code or (as seen in Terminator 2) by tricking the computer into revealing the code on your device?
Computers; Can you really guess the password on a friends computer so you can find his/her evil plans? (Yes you can, but how easy is this in real life - this might be considered 'educational' if they show that viewers computers may not be as secure as they'd like to think).
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Post by rmc on Jan 13, 2013 17:25:12 GMT
There are a lot of times in films ect where someone breaks a code of some sort in about 5 seconds. So on its own its a perfectly valid myth - just one that I'm having trouble envisioning as a 'TV Friendly' segment for the show. Off the top of my head there are two variations that they *might* be able to use; Electronic locks; A; Is it really possible to get/guess the combination to an electronic keypad? In TV/Films heroes sometimes use various tricks to find the number, usually this is a variation of dusting the keypad to see which numbers have been pressed and then guessing the combination from there. (The James Bond film 'Moonraker' had a variation where the keypad used tones which allowed Bond to guess the code). B; Can you really make a device that will crack an electronic lock? Either by overriding it, rapidly selecting numbers until it hits the right code or (as seen in Terminator 2) by tricking the computer into revealing the code on your device? Computers; Can you really guess the password on a friends computer so you can find his/her evil plans? (Yes you can, but how easy is this in real life - this might be considered 'educational' if they show that viewers computers may not be as secure as they'd like to think). As to SOME electronic keypads: At our Condo, some owners made the mistake of installing keypad entry on their garages. Unfortunately, since our community is not a 'gated' community, thieves were able to walk up to these garages, break off the keypad itself, and then just cross the main wires. And, viola! The garage apparently opened and they took whatever it was they wanted to take. Not really breaking the code, as it were --- BUT, it might make for a humorous moment during such an episode - "Here's a keypad entry system placed on a storage unit, protecting the contents inside. Let's see if anyone can come up with the proper code to compromise the security system. It's said that these are very, very hard to decode..." (Someone walks up, breaks the box, crosses the wires and opens the unit) "Ah, yes. And then there's that!" However, I am a little back and forth if we'd be teaching future crooks the weaknesses of certain keypad systems, or if we'd be teaching home owners not to use some keypad systems, and therefore saving their skins?! Maybe better not to cross that bridge.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 13, 2013 17:33:39 GMT
There are a lot of times in films ect where someone breaks a code of some sort in about 5 seconds. So on its own its a perfectly valid myth - just one that I'm having trouble envisioning as a 'TV Friendly' segment for the show. Off the top of my head there are two variations that they *might* be able to use; Electronic locks; A; Is it really possible to get/guess the combination to an electronic keypad? In TV/Films heroes sometimes use various tricks to find the number, usually this is a variation of dusting the keypad to see which numbers have been pressed and then guessing the combination from there. (The James Bond film 'Moonraker' had a variation where the keypad used tones which allowed Bond to guess the code). B; Can you really make a device that will crack an electronic lock? Either by overriding it, rapidly selecting numbers until it hits the right code or (as seen in Terminator 2) by tricking the computer into revealing the code on your device? Computers; Can you really guess the password on a friends computer so you can find his/her evil plans? (Yes you can, but how easy is this in real life - this might be considered 'educational' if they show that viewers computers may not be as secure as they'd like to think). As to SOME electronic keypads: At our Condo, some owners made the mistake of installing keypad entry on their garages. Unfortunately, since our community is not a 'gated' community, thieves were able to walk up to these garages, break off the keypad itself, and then just cross the main wires. And, viola! The garage apparently opened and they took whatever it was they wanted to take. Not really breaking the code, as it were --- BUT, it might make for a humorous moment during such an episode - "Here's a keypad entry system placed on a storage unit, protecting the contents inside. Let's see if anyone can come up with the proper code to compromise the security system. It's said that these are very, very hard to decode..." (Someone walks up, breaks the box, crosses the wires and opens the unit) "Ah, yes. And then there's that!" They could have some fun with it I agree. I can imagine Grant using an electronic lock breaker he made, then Tori saying he wants to try his lock breaker...and pulling out a sledgehammer. They could do something fun with trying to hack a computer - they are given a laptop, and if they manage to hack it the first file reads 'While they are trying to guess the pass word you creep up and hit them with the axe...'
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Post by c64 on Jan 14, 2013 1:42:59 GMT
First of all, you should read the book "Colossus: The secrets of Bletchley Park's code-breaking computers" if you want to know what really happened in Bletchley Park. There is still a lot of false information around about the Colossi "Computers". Those were not designed to be what we would call a computer nowadays, they just contained technology you could make a decent computer out of it! All they really did was counting 1's and 0's for statistical analysis of encrypted messages.
You can't "just decode something" at all! You need to know how it was encrypted and the proper key. If you don't even know what the symbols are for, you can't decode it at all.
For Enigma messages, the outcome is a human readable text in a known language so you look for patterns in the encrypted message and fiddle around with various combinations of decryption to figure out the key. Statistical analysis tells you if your result gets "better" or "worse" so you don't have to try all possibilities (brute force) here. In fact, the pre-war Enigma can be broken by pen and paper in a matter of minutes, the military version just has an additional wheel connected in series and two new different wired wheels along with the "Steckerbrett" for real randomness in the key. The real Problem for the Allied was the Lorenz "Verschlüsselungszusatz" for Teletype machines. This was the main method of communication for the 3th Reich and this was kept a secret until a few years ago since the Colossus which was the only good method to break this code was kept a big secret until a few years ago.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 14, 2013 13:01:23 GMT
I may get a chance later next month after my exams, thanks for the title.
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Post by c64 on Jan 14, 2013 13:26:03 GMT
I may get a chance later next month after my exams, thanks for the title. You really need time to read the first chapters where they explain how they did it. But unfortunately there is a lot of information missing you need to fully understand the tricks. You might want to learn about Teletypes and the CCITT-2 (Murray) code first before you read the book. For example, a Teletype uses 5-bit for everything but the alphabet is sorted to save "machine movements" like the morse code. Not for speed but to safe wear on the machine. This makes bit 3 and 4 rather rarely used for text messages and one of the Geniuses just looked at those to analyse the pattern of encryption since the plain code would have mostly zeros there.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 15, 2013 5:11:36 GMT
I may get a chance later next month after my exams, thanks for the title. You really need time to read the first chapters where they explain how they did it. But unfortunately there is a lot of information missing you need to fully understand the tricks. You might want to learn about Teletypes and the CCITT-2 (Murray) code first before you read the book. For example, a Teletype uses 5-bit for everything but the alphabet is sorted to save "machine movements" like the morse code. Not for speed but to safe wear on the machine. This makes bit 3 and 4 rather rarely used for text messages and one of the Geniuses just looked at those to analyse the pattern of encryption since the plain code would have mostly zeros there. That is interesting, because I was under the impression that a message alpha numeric, in the chosen language in this case German, was first encoded through a machine like the Enigma type 4 the radio operator would send it out in Morse code (dit's and dah's). The patrolling U-Boat radio operator would receive the message and write down the alpha numeric sequence and pass it to the operator of the Enigma machine who would type in the alpha numeric sequence to get the decoded message.
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Post by c64 on Jan 15, 2013 16:07:46 GMT
That is interesting, because I was under the impression that a message alpha numeric, in the chosen language in this case German, was first encoded through a machine like the Enigma type 4 the radio operator would send it out in Morse code (dit's and dah's). The patrolling U-Boat radio operator would receive the message and write down the alpha numeric sequence and pass it to the operator of the Enigma machine who would type in the alpha numeric sequence to get the decoded message. The headquarters mainly used encrypted Teletypes over landlines for secure messages. But since there were not enough telephone lines left intact in the areas of fight, they used standard Teletype machines to record the encrypted message on PPT (punched paper tape) and then fed them into Teletypes connected to a radio for "the last miles". The receiver then has a machine which decodes the message, either fed by the radio, landline (if available) or by PPT (delivered by a messenger or from a machine in the same building with outside access). Since the occupied territory grew very quickly and the retreating enemy forces destroyed telecommunication systems and especially telephone lines, a lot of the message traffic had to be done by radio. The Germans used directional antennas and as little transmitter power as possible so the radio links had to be pretty secure they had thought. But the nature of the Teletype system still required a pretty strong signal in order to work reliable and the British intelligence service had excellent directional antennae and real sensitive gear and could pick up a lot of those radio links they did copy on iron wire recorders. The Enigma machine was used for mobile applications, soldiers and command posts in the field and the submarines. The key to break the so called "Tunny machine" (Lorenz Verschlüsselungszusatz) was intercepting messages which were sent through both systems. So they broke the weak Enigma code and had a plain text they tried to make use of on Tunny messages the very same length which were sent on the same day. That's how they were able to discover the very last secrets of the Tunny machine. What had also helped a lot was that some lazy German operators had sent their keys in plain text over radio links during the first year of the war. This was sort of OK since the Allies had no clue how the encrypting system works but once they had a good idea how the system works, the old recorded messages were a superb playground to figure out the details!
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Post by c64 on Jan 15, 2013 16:12:40 GMT
And by the way, at first, Enigma and Tunny keys were changed very rarely. It took until D-Day until they had changed ALL keys at least daily or even by the hour. But this was way too late since the first non-prototype Colossus followed shortly by 4 brothers was up and running since D-Day and could figure out any key within hours!
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 15, 2013 16:44:00 GMT
Wasn't/isn't the standard practice to write your message, then encode it (even if into a 'shorthand' version) and then to send it through the machines?
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Post by c64 on Jan 15, 2013 16:53:43 GMT
Wasn't/isn't the standard practice to write your message, then encode it (even if into a 'shorthand' version) and then to send it through the machines? For the Enigma yes, there is no other method possible. Teletype machines - no matter if encrypted or not - can record messages. You can write your message offline with time to think what to write on PPT, then send it all at once with maximum speed (50 BPS) through a telegram line or by radio. The receiving end then records it and can resend, hand it to a carrier or decode it. The teletype system is a bit like the modern TCP/IP system. You simply attach a header which contains the destination address and then the message is sent "node to node" over various message offices to the destination. You can also encrypt the message but attach a plain text header so all message offices can forward the message and distribute it to the receivers without knowing the key nor owning the decryption gear.
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Post by c64 on Jan 15, 2013 17:01:00 GMT
By the way, what makes breaking Enigma codes easier is the fact that a "space" is always a space - the machine has no space key. So you can tell the length of words all the time. In the English language, you can spot "I" and "a" pretty easily but also the German language has lots of words which are often used and have a relative unique length. Especially since you can always see when there is a new sentence and you can guess plenty of words from the header. For example, the submariners had to send a weather report regularly which always starts with "WETTERBERICHT:" which tells you the kind and setting of the first encryption drum.
The Tunny machine also encrypts all other characters (Especially Space) which makes it real hard to guess anything written in the message.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 15, 2013 17:07:48 GMT
Wasn't/isn't the standard practice to write your message, then encode it (even if into a 'shorthand' version) and then to send it through the machines? For the Enigma yes, there is no other method possible. Teletype machines - no matter if encrypted or not - can record messages. You can write your message offline with time to think what to write on PPT, then send it all at once with maximum speed (50 BPS) through a telegram line or by radio. The receiving end then records it and can resend, hand it to a carrier or decode it. I was just thinking that the logical thing to do, especially with U-Boats, would be to keep messages as short as possible to make it much harder to locate where the message was transmitted from. Of course shortening a message, using say a 'code' for map references, would add a second layer of encoding to a message should the first be broken. Not sure how that relates to how the system was really used.
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Post by c64 on Jan 15, 2013 17:11:20 GMT
Here's a video:
On the top of the machine is the PPT reader, beneath it is the printer and PPT writer.
You can send a PPT, you can write a PPT - individual or at the same time, you can run the message from the PPT through a encryption machine and print the result as PPT or human readable paper. You can also run a PPT through the reader and add something using the keyboard or skip parts of the PPT. You can copy several short PPT stripes to a long stripe.
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Post by the light works on Jan 15, 2013 17:16:14 GMT
my first thought would be that the obvious solution for not being able to encode spaces would be to eliminate them. sure it would give you the block of unspaced text that annoys us so much here, but it makes it impossible to recognize words by length.
and I can't help thinking that encoded communications are not the place for rigid formatting requirements.
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Post by c64 on Jan 15, 2013 17:18:45 GMT
For the Enigma yes, there is no other method possible. Teletype machines - no matter if encrypted or not - can record messages. You can write your message offline with time to think what to write on PPT, then send it all at once with maximum speed (50 BPS) through a telegram line or by radio. The receiving end then records it and can resend, hand it to a carrier or decode it. I was just thinking that the logical thing to do, especially with U-Boats, would be to keep messages as short as possible to make it much harder to locate where the message was transmitted from. Of course shortening a message, using say a 'code' for map references, would add a second layer of encoding to a message should the first be broken. Not sure how that relates to how the system was really used. The U-boats used Enigma only. The moisture inside an U-boat would destroy a Teletype within days! That was good fortune for the Allies since Dönitz was controlling his U-boats by radio, telling them exactly what to do and where they have to be. Once the Enigma was broken, the Allies knew exactly where the U-Boats were all the time to avoid them with the convoys or attack them. The radio silence was pointless since the Allies usually knew the destination and patrol patterns of the boat under radio silence.
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