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Post by silverdragon on Jun 25, 2013 9:34:16 GMT
I KNOW already.... Adam and Jamie well and truly dealt with this...
You cannot make ordinance out of ice.
However....
My Mate has an AIR-Rifle?...
Now here is something you dont hear often on the show, time to DOWN-Size... Downsize your chicken cannon, I have an idea Can you get a bullet of ice to fire by AIR pressure...... as in a COLD explosion from compressed air?....
Just how much can you pump up an air-rifle to fire an ice crystal, and could the projectile me made lethal?...
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 25, 2013 10:26:35 GMT
I KNOW already.... Adam and Jamie well and truly dealt with this... You cannot make ordinance out of ice. However.... My Mate has an AIR-Rifle?... Now here is something you dont hear often on the show, time to DOWN-Size... Downsize your chicken cannon, I have an idea Can you get a bullet of ice to fire by AIR pressure...... as in a COLD explosion from compressed air?.... Just how much can you pump up an air-rifle to fire an ice crystal, and could the projectile me made lethal?... Some time ago (Adam of the biblical sense was a lad) I worked for an organisation that also employed apprentices, bored apprentices. They got a idea to make a air rifle that fired 1/2 inch ball bearings out of a conduit barrel. It utilised workshop air pressure and successfully knocked out the lights (Gas Mercury) in the individual bays from a rage of 100 feet(?). Of course they missed a lot, but hey it didn't matter they just took out the widows instead. This game didn't last long, the tradeies didn't appreciate it. If I remember the myth it was for an assassin to kill someone with a ice bullet, since the obtained air pressure is unlikely to approach the gas pressures generated by chemical means, range would be a problem.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 25, 2013 10:48:35 GMT
Friction would probably still be an issue. Question is: How big would the projectile have to be in order for friction to be a small enough issue that it won't melt/break up the projectile? And how big would it have to be to be lethal?
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 25, 2013 10:58:19 GMT
Friction would probably still be an issue. Question is: How big would the projectile have to be in order for friction to be a small enough issue that it won't melt/break up the projectile? And how big would it have to be to be lethal? I seam o remember ice skates actually melt the ice by the pressure exerted by the weight of the skater, which reduces the friction experienced by the skater?
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 25, 2013 11:14:24 GMT
Just remembered I actually posted a similar evolution on the ice bullet here: Citadel/Movie Myths/Bones (TV Series)Seems that someone already had the thought of the air gun and took it a step further still with a blood bullet.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 25, 2013 11:48:37 GMT
I don't think a .22cal ice bullet would be lethal at any but the closest of ranges (lee Harvey Oswald) propelled by compressed air, at such a range the chances of fulfilling the myth of avoiding detection at such ranges are slim. Currently there is discussion about a long bow, a lethal weapon over 200 to 300 feet. Without doing the numbers an air powered ice bullet weapon should have similar velocity and penetration characteristics.
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2013 15:25:56 GMT
one of our somewhat local authors used a projectile made of compressed bone meal as an assassination weapon in one of his stories - his delivery system was of a "not currently possible" technology, though - it was designed to fire straight down from a hard to see drone - with the idea that the sudden death of the victim would distract from its escape.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 25, 2013 15:50:02 GMT
one of our somewhat local authors used a projectile made of compressed bone meal as an assassination weapon in one of his stories - his delivery system was of a "not currently possible" technology, though - it was designed to fire straight down from a hard to see drone - with the idea that the sudden death of the victim would distract from its escape. Ice bullets made of bone meal? EE 'Doc' Smith had at his disposal a Universe of characters, some recognisable in star wars...... Ice, frozen water
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2013 15:58:14 GMT
one of our somewhat local authors used a projectile made of compressed bone meal as an assassination weapon in one of his stories - his delivery system was of a "not currently possible" technology, though - it was designed to fire straight down from a hard to see drone - with the idea that the sudden death of the victim would distract from its escape. Ice bullets made of bone meal? EE 'Doc' Smith had at his disposal a Universe of characters, some recognisable in star wars...... Ice, frozen water I am missing this reference.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 25, 2013 16:34:21 GMT
Ice bullets made of bone meal? EE 'Doc' Smith had at his disposal a Universe of characters, some recognisable in star wars...... Ice, frozen water I am missing this reference. He was a local to you author, wrote the Lensman series of books and the Skylark series. He was an Industrial chemist with a practical mining background IIRC. Your reference APN is unknown to me.
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2013 16:44:54 GMT
I am missing this reference. He was a local to you author, wrote the Lensman series of books and the Skylark series. He was an Industrial chemist with a practical mining background IIRC. Your reference APN is unknown to me. the Skylark series sounds familiar to me. - I have a reprint, now that I look up the details. I rather liked the premise. but this was not that particular author (it seems many authors agree with me that this is the right place to live) This is the author I referred to. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Ing
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 25, 2013 16:49:32 GMT
He was a local to you author, wrote the Lensman series of books and the Skylark series. He was an Industrial chemist with a practical mining background IIRC. Your reference APN is unknown to me. the Skylark series sounds familiar to me. - I have a reprint, now that I look up the details. I rather liked the premise. but this was not that particular author (it seems many authors agree with me that this is the right place to live) This is the author I referred to. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_IngThe subject is ice bullets, not blood or bone meal bullets.
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2013 16:56:01 GMT
the Skylark series sounds familiar to me. - I have a reprint, now that I look up the details. I rather liked the premise. but this was not that particular author (it seems many authors agree with me that this is the right place to live) This is the author I referred to. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_IngThe subject is ice bullets, not blood or bone meal bullets. yes, that is true, but it is still an example of a low velocity "disappearing" bullet.
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Post by User Unavailable on Jun 25, 2013 16:58:10 GMT
The ice bullet through an air rifle was also pretty well discussed and debunked on the old boards as well, for numerous reasons.
Ice just isn't dense or heavy enough to penetrate effectively without being pushed to extreme velocities, which it couldn't survive.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 25, 2013 17:10:49 GMT
The ice bullet through an air rifle was also pretty well discussed and debunked on the old boards as well, for numerous reasons. Ice just isn't dense or heavy enough to penetrate effectively without being pushed to extreme velocities, which it couldn't survive. I must have missed those threads, busy at the time. I'd like to see it tested, even if I need to hook up my compressor to an ice cube tray.
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2013 17:24:11 GMT
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Post by rikkochet on Jun 25, 2013 18:32:14 GMT
Air rifles are no longer the 'bounce a pellet off a can' variety, some are sufficiently powerful to kill a full grown boar.
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2013 18:41:34 GMT
Air rifles are no longer the 'bounce a pellet off a can' variety, some are sufficiently powerful to kill a full grown boar. the Lewis and Clark expedition carried an air rifle among their survival gear - I believe they mainly used it for deer hunting and for impressing the natives.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 25, 2013 20:02:45 GMT
Air rifles are no longer the 'bounce a pellet off a can' variety, some are sufficiently powerful to kill a full grown boar. the Lewis and Clark expedition carried an air rifle among their survival gear - I believe they mainly used it for deer hunting and for impressing the natives. That was a Girandoni Air Rifle; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle This was also used by the Austrian army for around 30 years. This rifle, and modern air rifles as well, seem to top out with muzzle velocities of around 1000 fps (thus putting them in the lower end of the velocities seem in modern handguns.) More common 'off the shelf' rifles seem to top off around 650 fps - below the range seen in handguns. (Although I do seem to recall a Webley revolver that had a muzzle velocity in this range.) However the lethality of a projectile is based not just on its speed, but also on its mass. Lower the mass - say by using ice instead of metal - and you have to increase velocity significantly to compensate. (And this doesn't account for what happens when the projectile hits something.) In the case of an ice bullet you'd need to increase the speed by a factor of three or four - which would mean a muzzle velocity at least a third higher than modern high-powered rifles. The only conventional weapons we have that produce velocities in that range are classified as artillery and usually attached to an engine.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 26, 2013 7:48:03 GMT
Ok, so back to my original proposal, downsize the chicken cannon, get a golf-ball sized chuck of ice, just how lethal could that be.
Yes, they have already done this..... They tested golf-ball sized chunks against the bottom of a boat......
So how much can you increase the air-speed they used on THAT experiment, and would that make a lethal weapon?...
And yes, we are into cannon artillery here, but what the heck?... Who ever said the "Bullet" had to be bullet shaped, or bullet sized, and we have the magic .50 calibre to reckon with there anyway, and who said that is the biggest calibre a "Bullet" can be anyway?....
Forget what you know, or what you think we know, lets go with what ISNT possible, get rid of that, on the grounds of take away the impossible, whatever left, however implausible it may seam.... can we up-size that?.... and with a side order of C4..... and a lightly grilled stoat on a sesame seed bun.
I am not going with the ideal concealable assasin weapon here, forget that, I am just playing around with what maybe possible if this ever came to a re-do on the idea of an Ice bullet....
Just one more quick question... Sabot..... If the ice chunk in question were to be buried inside a sabot whilst firing, would that allow faster barrel velocity whilst insulating against the heat?...
Is this a brain-hail-storm or just a brain-fart?...
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