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Post by the light works on Feb 22, 2014 23:27:33 GMT
Navies in general were not conscripted, this seems to be a result of 'impressment', how it worked and what/who it covered being misunderstood. In the sailing age it took years, if not decades, to get the skills required in a sailor. This is why the oldest most seamen started their life at sea was 12, and many were a heck of a lot younger than that. Even picking up the basic skills needed for specific tasks took several months to learn, and that on a ship where there was plenty of time to learn the ropes. Of course men of war were, as I noted somewhere above, crewed based on the number of men needed to work the guns rather than those needed to actually sail the ship. So they could to some extent afford to have a lower proportion of able seamen. Off the top of my head I think the ideal mix during the Napoleonic wars was 1/4tr able seamen (the professionals, highly skilled) 1/2-1/4tr ordinary seamen (reasonably skilled but not quite professionals) and the rest 'Landsmen' (could just about be trusted to pull on a rope under close supervision). So a small brig with a crew of 80 would have 10 able, 10-20 ordinary and 20-30 landsmen on deck per watch. By the end of the Napoleonic wars the proportion of landsmen would have been closer to 30 than 20, and of course the specific number of of each rating would have varied from ship to ship. Those Captains who had good reputations* would probably have had a much larger number of able and ordinary seamen, since they would have found it easier to get men to join up. (*Reputation in this context usually meant treating the crew with respect, or being 'hard but fair'. As noted above, sailors didn't really object to flogging or the other punishments that a Captain could hand out providing that such punishments were seen as being fairly applied to the situation. For Captains most offences required a careful hand, as they tended to be covered by the last of the articles of war 'All other crimes not being capital, shall be punished according to the laws and traditions of the sea'. So Captains frequently tread a fine line between being too hard, and relying on flogging too much which tended to annoy the crew. Or just as bad was being too soft. For a lot of offences simply watering or stopping the grog was punishment enough...after all sailors were used to drinking a pint of high strength rum (or the equivalent) every day. This amount means that sailors were by modern standards alcoholics (not that all of them did drink grog anyway). So cutting off their alcohol even for a day would not have been a pleasant experience for most men). do we have documentation on the strength of the rum? in other areas of history, while there are certainly reports of people being drunkards, it is not entirely uncommon for alcoholic beverages to be lower in strength than people think of today. for example, the Knights Hospitalier had a bylaw stating to the effect of "A knight shall drink no more than two gallons of beer a day, lest the excess lead to inebriation." The beer they were referring to was brewed weak even by American standards.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 22, 2014 23:52:06 GMT
We know the strength of various alcoholic beverages during the Georgian period and before, partly because they started to record it but also because we know exactly how they made it* and have been able to duplicate the processes...assuming that the traditional fermentation processes were never dropped in the first place.
Currently Rum is around 40% alcohol, but in earlier periods it was closer to 60-70%. Beer was usually around 10-12% alcohol, with 'small beer' (ie weak beer by the standards of the day) at around 5%. (Meaning that an 17th century man would consider practically every modern beer and larger to be rather weak, and certainly tasteless).
You can buy traditional beers and spirits, which are not for the weak of heart...or the weak stomached.
(*Brewing beer was historically done by monks, who liked to write things down in great detail. Or at least they liked to write in detail unless it was about something later historians would really like to know about.)
Hardly a surprise that gout was a rather common ailment, as was liver failure, jaundice ect. It wasn't until the 1800's that the amount of alcohol it was acceptable to drink, and the strength of the drinks, started to fall. Although various religious groups, and it does have to be said Doctors, were pushing for no or at least less alcohol consumption at much earlier dates. Doctors certainly seem to have been aware that such high alcohol consumption wasn't healthy.
Trivia; In the early 1800's the Royal Navy lowered the amount of alcohol issued to sailors by half. You'd expect the sailors would have complained about this. But it seems that they actually supported this, noting that they felt a lot better for drinking less.
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Post by the light works on Feb 23, 2014 0:21:34 GMT
We know the strength of various alcoholic beverages during the Georgian period and before, partly because they started to record it but also because we know exactly how they made it* and have been able to duplicate the processes...assuming that the traditional fermentation processes were never dropped in the first place. Currently Rum is around 40% alcohol, but in earlier periods it was closer to 60-70%. Beer was usually around 10-12% alcohol, with 'small beer' (ie weak beer by the standards of the day) at around 5%. (Meaning that an 17th century man would consider practically every modern beer and larger to be rather weak, and certainly tasteless). You can buy traditional beers and spirits, which are not for the weak of heart...or the weak stomached. (*Brewing beer was historically done by monks, who liked to write things down in great detail. Or at least they liked to write in detail unless it was about something later historians would really like to know about.) Hardly a surprise that gout was a rather common ailment, as was liver failure, jaundice ect. It wasn't until the 1800's that the amount of alcohol it was acceptable to drink, and the strength of the drinks, started to fall. Although various religious groups, and it does have to be said Doctors, were pushing for no or at least less alcohol consumption at much earlier dates. Doctors certainly seem to have been aware that such high alcohol consumption wasn't healthy. Trivia; In the early 1800's the Royal Navy lowered the amount of alcohol issued to sailors by half. You'd expect the sailors would have complained about this. But it seems that they actually supported this, noting that they felt a lot better for drinking less. my understanding is that small beer was brewed by reusing the mash from the regular beer - and unless they had a much more effective way of malting the grains than we do, now, or added sugar to the wort, both your figures are awfully high. It's been a while, so I don't remember, but I think beer yeasts tend to start dropping out between 8-10% alcohol.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 1, 2014 14:27:52 GMT
I watched something on this subject on TV a few days ago.
They inferred that those "Pressed" into service often actually ENJOYED the life at sea.... They had some reasonable evidence.... For a start, it was a steady job, where land based work was often very insecure. You got three-square-meals a day, and the explanation of that was that the "Plates" your food was served on were actually square to prevent them rolling about the place and to save space in storage.... well, that makes sense doesnt it?... You also go your grog allowance, rum/water. You got a bed for the sleeping in, which, although not anything like a modern divan with warm duvets was at least under cover and mostly dry. (Ish... heavy seas?...) You got clothing allocated as needed. You had some form of job security. There was a medical officer who could at least offer some help when you were ill. You also got shore leave now and again, and pay.... If not much, at least enough for a few beers ashore on your occasional day off.
When the alternative was zero benefits system either nomadic wandering from town to town living hand to mouth looking for work that could be seasonal at best and badly paid, life on the sea was a good career move, if you could stand ship life?....
When I considered the tale put in front of me, I could actually see a benefit from being employed on the seas.
Life expectancy?...
Under a good captain, on a good ship, on average life expectancy for an able bodied seaman was actually longer than Shore based lifestyle.
So, I have to ask, whats the opinion here?... If the press gangs were employing unemployed nomadic almost gypsies who had to be honest, bugger-all chance of other employment, especially in harsh winters, was it all that bad?...
Yes the picture we get from history is not quite so "Romantic" as some would portray, but then again, history is written by those as can write, and the people who got pressed into service "Made their mark", were illiterate, and were not often known for keeping Diaries?....
I think this is worth chucking in there for discussion.
And also, my Dad was Merchant Navy, the long traditions of the sea were still in place, and as he says, it wasnt all that bad, he got treated well if you worked hard, and got to see places most people only dream of.
No hard working manual labour is ever going to be that good a place to write home about.... Was a life at sea worse than say a life as a dunnykin diver (Cess pit cleaner) seasonal farm hand, Navigator road builder gang, railway worker and the rest?... How about Mining, one of the worst jobs in history in a drift mine...
I can actually think of a few modern jobs I would walk past on the way to a life at sea.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 1, 2014 15:32:08 GMT
I'll try to deal with these more or less in order;
Steady kind of depends on what you mean. Sailors were in high demand, so finding a job was comparatively easy especially during the wars of the 1700's as both merchant and Navy ships were drawing from the same workpool. You also had the option of serving in the fleets of other nations (as long as Britain wasn't at war with that country).
Job security was a different matter, as you only served on a ship for one voyage and were not assured of being employed after that. Nor for that matter assured of getting paid at the end of a voyage. Merchant Captains seem to have encouraged sailors to depart a ship before it came into port because they then were not legally required to pay them. In the Royal Navy the wages were lower than in the merchant service, and often paid by chits or years late. But you did get paid eventually, and it is notable that the Navy did what it could to pay the men as soon as possible - complaining to a former Captain usually worked wonders.
Officers were a different matter entirely. The standing officers stayed with a ship regardless of if it was in service or not, but commissioned officers were employed for the same length of time as the crew. Unlike an able seaman an officer could find it next to impossible to find employment after a cruise, since there were maybe ten times the number of officers than there were places for them. Although officers did get half pay, for the lower ranks that wasn't really enough to live off and even Captains could have problems making ends meet.
In fact at the end of the various wars it was usually the officers who suffered more than the men. Seamen were always in demand, and could find employment on merchant shipping after a war. Officers however found it even harder to get employment since the number of active ships was sharply reduced when the shooting stopped. Some, especially senior or well known/successful officers, could find employment in other navies. (The Imperial Russian Fleet was commanded by an Englishman at one point, while Thomas Cochrane served in the Chilean, Brazilian and Greek Navies at various times)
So in many ways the common sailor had a much easier life than the officers.
***
Yes, the 'plates' were basically square wooden trays with high sides into which the food was ladled, and from where the expression 'three square meals' comes from. Not sure if they were square because that saved on storage space, or simply because square trays would be far easier to mass produce.
***
Alcohol allowance was a gallon of small beer in home waters or a pint of rum further away. Provision was given for other types of alcohol to be substituted if neither was available - pursers were encouraged to buy locally available produce as this not only provided fresh food which kept the crew healthier but was also cheaper. In the Mediterranean for example sailors were often issued three bottles of wine. This was usually worked out amicably between the Purser and the crew where official tables were not provided.
***
Hammocks were brought up from below and lashed into netting along the sides of the bulwark, where they provided some protection during battle. Naturally this mean that they were exposed to the elements, so could and would get wet when a ship was sailing. They were, it seems, usually taken below during really bad weather.
The dryness of a ship depended on the ships age, condition and design. Ships that had large gaps between the planking or allowed the timbers to 'work' (ie move) tended to take in a lot of water. Since sailors of the period slept at the bow that could mean that water got into the sleeping berth.
What the sleeping berth did have was warmth. A small wooden room with a low ceiling and packed with a hundred men or more doesn't exactly have a problem with heating.
***
Slops were issued on first entering a ships complement (ie being put on the books as a member of the crew, rather than as a passenger). The cost of the slops was deducted from the sailors wages at the end of the Voyage, but this doesn't seem to have been a major problem either because most professional sailors didn't need clothing (they already owned a set, probably from their last time on a man of war) or because they didn't exactly have anything else to spend their money on while at sea. (Gambling was prohibited)
If you lost or damaged your issued clothing for a valid reason, for example from being injured in battle, it appears that you didn't have to pay to replace it. I also get the impression that slops that were simply worn out though heavy use could, likewise, be replaced without cost. Although I'm not clear on the situation in regards replacing damaged or worn out clothing.
***
The quality of ships doctors varied, from butchers who had a warrant and could read and write well enough to keep records and read medical books. All the way through to fully fledged Physicians who held medical degrees.
Medical treatment was, however, free except in the case of venereal diseases for which a sailor would have money deducted from their wages at the end of a voyage.
***
Shore leave was not always given, and seems to have been the major gripe sailors had about the Royal Navy. Captains were, understandably, wary of giving shore leave (at least in home ports, and often even abroad) because it was the perfect opportunity for men to abscond. The BEST Captains however usually granted shore leave where ever possible, understanding that men were unlikely to run under captains who were known to be generous with shore leave. (At least one Captain noted that the first thing he usually did on taking command of a ship was to grant shore leave. Those men who ran would have run anyway, while the rest figured that if he was that generous with leave there was not much point in running. The number of deserters on ships commanded by such Captains was initially very small, maybe a dozen out of crews some 300 strong. And after that usually zero.)
Another trick Captains often used was to give the men small amounts of money as an advance on their wages, enough to get a few drinks in, before granting leave. (Men were not actually paid until after a ship was laid up at the end of a voyage)
***
Longevity and good health are not that surprising. The Navy had a vested interest in keeping sailors healthy. So they did everything they could to promote good health through good food (they spent more on getting good quality provisions than they did on the ships themselves), and by keeping the ships as clean as possible.
In other navies of the period it was not unusual to find excrement on the deck, in the hold and more or less everywhere else. In the Royal Navy the only place you'd realistically find such a mess was the hold (more specifically the bulges), and then only because the animal pens located under the forecastle would drain some of their...material...into the hold no matter how often they were cleaned out.
As for provisions outside the Royal Navy...you probably don't want to know what they were like. But to give something of an example. When ever the French joined up with Spanish ships, even if they had only been at sea for two weeks, they usually had to beg for provisions as their own were inedible.
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Post by the light works on Mar 1, 2014 23:10:40 GMT
another benefit of immediate shore leave with an advance would be that those who were inclined to run could immediately be replaced either with volunteers or with sailors from inbound vessels.
and I think what Silver was referring to was that there were worse careers available than a naval career.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 2, 2014 8:10:29 GMT
A Naval career was a career.... As I say, a lot of work at that time that was shore based was seasonal farm work, or, basically what I do now, roll from job to job as needed.... 'cept I get better paid..... If you were at sea for six to twelve months, you were at least getting fed, and that was worth more than say three weeks work and nothing for the next month.
The options for the type of person who would be employed as a ships hand were ships hand or nothing. Therefore, one at the end of a voyage, unless you have absolute guarantee's you were needed for the next on the same ship, many sailors would hang about in port waiting for the next ship to hire.
Its a sort of mercenary life, you go to the highest paid, or best ship you can find. Best ship, one that looked sea worthy under captain who didnt take unnecessary risks... Many ships were lost because a greedy captain took on too much cargo in heavy seas. Which is where the Plimsoll line came from. (Thats the line on a ships bow painted to denote if its sat lower in the water than that, its not "Safe")
There was a trade route on a Canadian lake where many ships were lost due to idiot captains taking too much cargo during winter high seas, they would be OK during summer, but winter, the ships would ice up, extra weight, slight high wind, and over you go... enough to get lake water over the sides.... one way trip to solid land, straight down.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 2, 2014 16:43:05 GMT
It wasn't that easy for most Captains to get crew, and certainly not experienced seamen who were in high demand and jealously guarded by their Captains.
In British ports you were competing with every other ship in port, and usually ended up having to rely on the port Admiral's generosity with the limited number of men he had stuck in a hulk from the port draft - who were usually of somewhat questionable quality and often had no sea going experience at all.
Some Captains did have a good enough reputation that they could get volunteers fairly easily, if they had enough time for the news to spread. But most Captains were not this lucky, and had to rely purely on drafts and pressed men. It could easily take months before a frigate had enough men to sail, and it wasn't unknown for crews from returning men of war to be turned over to other ships so they could put to sea. This was unpopular with sailors, principally because they had a not unreasonable expectation of some time ashore and the chance to see their wives and sweethearts (may they never meet), and something the navy seems to have done its best to avoid having to do.
On overseas stations you just didn't have sailors you could press (as the law only applied to British nationals), the populations were often not large enough to provide men for a man of war and a Captains reputation was probably unknown (And if the Captain did have that good a reputation chances are that his crew wasn't going to run anyway.)
Quite true, IF you are talking about the Royal Navy. The Merchant navy could be just as bad, if not worse, than work on land and life on Privateers could be even worse.
In the Royal Navy you had three large meals per day (and far more than most people on land would ever get), drink, medical care and a 'pension' if you were crippled in the line of duty. Just as importantly, because men of war were manned based on the number of men needed to work the guns rather than the number of men needed to just sail the ship. An individual sailor had less work to do than on a comparable sized merchant ship - same amount of overall work but more men to do it. So while it was hard work, and under a Captain who was something of a tyrant could be a nightmare, life was usually a LOT easier than any other working trade you could name.
'Career' is probably misleading. Officers, both commissioned and Warrant, could well be said to have a career in the Navy. But the sailors themselves were in effect freelancing, and would move from merchant ships to men of war as the work (or press gangs) took them. It would not be unusual to find that a sailor had spent two years on a merchant ship, a year on a man of war, six months on a merchant ship and then two years on another merchant ship under (say) the American flag before ending up on a British ship of the line.
So seamen didn't really have a 'career' in the Royal Navy but one at sea, and one in which the conditions could vary considerably from one ship to the next. The two things that seem to have stopped many seamen from staying in the Royal Navy were money, the merchant service always paid better in wartime, and probably resentment at being 'forced' into serving on warships. If the navy (or the country as a whole) had been able to match the amount paid to seamen by the merchant service chances are that the impress service would not have been needed to find professional seamen. But even so they would still have run into serious manpower problems as the number of men needed to man the entire fleet was larger than the sea-going workforce available.
It was possible, if somewhat unusual, for an able seaman to become an officer. Usually the limiting factor was an inability to read, write or more probably do the maths needed. But 'mates' ect came from the lower deck and were effectively NCO's who could reasonably expect to find more supervisory roles on a ship. This wasn't a given of course, and the masters mate of one ship might end up being an able seamen on another. But if you were good enough to impress the officers, and certainly the Captain, there was a decent chance of being remembered or possibly recommended to other Captains, and be employed in the same position again.
There was also the chance that a Captain might, if there was an opening, promote a mate to midshipman and from there the man could, if he was skilled and lucky enough, end up as a commissioned officer. Admirals could, on overseas stations, sometimes promote mates straight to the position of Lieutenant on occasion. (Commodores, who were in the Royal Navy 'acting rear admirals', could do the same thing. I forget the name of the men in question, but when Britain decided to do something about the African Slave trade the Commodore in question promoted a masters mate to the rank of Lieutenant due to his knowledge of the local waters. What is most interesting is that the lieutenant was half African, half British. Showing that the Royal Navy of the 'impressment' period really was incredibly progressive in many regards, and that ability was often placed above all other considerations. Pity this wasn't the case a generation later...)
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Post by the light works on Mar 2, 2014 23:59:26 GMT
"On overseas stations you just didn't have sailors you could press (as the law only applied to British nationals), the populations were often not large enough to provide men for a man of war and a Captains reputation was probably unknown (And if the Captain did have that good a reputation chances are that his crew wasn't going to run anyway.)"
right - so better the bad crewmen bolt at a home port than at an overseas port.
it is one of those things - the best time to find out you have a problem is before it becomes relevant.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 3, 2014 7:51:32 GMT
On a program lost night, they discussed Captain Cook, he of the not so good Hawaii experience. Three "Voyages" to "Discover" Australia and the like.... With the same crew.
Different ships, same crew.... Loyalty to a good captain was prevalent.
Discover Australia, its still a subject of discussion that the natives of Australia already knew of its existence, and the fact Cook called it New Holland and claimed it for England?....
I am on the side of the Natives on that. He wasnt that good at meeting people and making friends in foreign places?...
I also agree with the native view from Hawaii... he caused trouble there.
But he was a good ships captain, and his crew got good treatment. Until he took on board infected water, he hardly ever lost anyone, and as Scurvy at that time could take half your men on a long voyage, he kinda set the bar high.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 3, 2014 9:01:56 GMT
Cook is a good example of how it was possible for a man of good ability to raise up though the ranks in the Georgian Navy. He started in the Merchant service, then entered the Royal Navy as a Masters Mate.
This is probably why he was a good Captain, rather than just a good seaman. Having come up through the ranks he would have understood the 'common' sailor better than many if his contemporaries, and certainly would have been aware that sailors themselves had long since known that the best way to avoid Scurvy was to have lots of fresh vegetables. (The Royal College of Physicians dismissed the idea purely because it came from the 'unlearned' and was 'empirical' - which was shorthand at this period for a scam.)
Cooks dealings with the cultures he met were in line with the culture that he came from, and in many respects was considerably more enlightened and respectful than any of his peers. Many of his contemporaries would have been far less respectful than Cook was. Remember that it wasn't until 1816 that Europeans started to ask if slavery of any ethnic group was acceptable, and then only because of an accident. The fleet that was sent out to deal with the Barbary States was originally only intended to order the release of white slaves. But the decree signed by the Regent that spoke of slavery was broadly worded, meaning that it applied to slaves of all colours.
Claiming land, even if it happened to already have people living there, was a standard practice and was often symbolic and legal rather than from a desire to actually do anything with those places. By claiming Australia in the name of King George he denied it to France, Denmark and Spain. This was also the period in which the power of a country was based on the amount of land it controlled, especially overseas. This is why Spain was considered a superpower even though the country was in a state of near constant debt and most of its money ended up in the hands of Dutch bankers. (In fact it was the Dutch who were the real 'superpower' of the 1600's and early 1700's, since the money that Spain was using to support its Empire largely consisted of loans from the Dutch.)
It wasn't until after the American Revolution that Britain started to view global power and empires in terms of trade, rather than land. And those overseas possessions it either retained, took or developed after that point were to support trade routes. Either as useful bases for ships to re-provision or as bases for men of war who patrolled the shipping routes.
It kind of depended on how many men you had to start with and when you were meant to put to sea. A 'bad' crewman could, in most cases, be turned into a useful (or at least not worthless) member of the crew after a few months at sea. In fact the longer a ship was in service the less likely it was for men to run, since they became part of a community, even if no shore leave had been granted. (Assuming a Captain who wasn't too harsh, and excluding those who didn't fit in for one reason or another).
The problem for Captains was that ships, especially during major wars, were already undermanned and often close to the minimum number of men needed to put to sea. If the number of men was close to the minimum then a handful of deserters could easily result in you having to explain to the Admiralty why you couldn't put to sea, and what the hell possessed you to grant leave - something that could wreck your career and leave you on shore for the rest of your life.
It was only Captains who were confident that they would not lose that many men, or who confident they would be able to replace them quickly, who would be willing to take the risk. And most were neither of the above.
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Post by ponytail61 on Mar 3, 2014 21:27:59 GMT
I'm curious as to the penalties for desertion for both impressed seamen and volunteers? And were there different punishments for merchant ships and war ships.
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Post by memeengine on Mar 3, 2014 22:20:16 GMT
I'm curious as to the penalties for desertion for both impressed seamen and volunteers? And were there different punishments for merchant ships and war ships. Since seamen on merchant ships were simply employees, there was no punishment or penalty for desertion (other than getting a reputation for being unreliable and possibly missing out on some pay). In navy service things were different. For example, in the Royal Navy, the Articles of War (which despite the name were also in force in peacetime) stated that the punishment for desertion was death. Not only that, the punishment for inciting someone else to desert was death too. Although it should be noted that after 1788, the Articles were amended to allow the Court Martial to reduce the punishment if circumstances permitted. However, the possibility of clemency wasn't available if the deserter ended up with the enemy (or pirate or rebel), where the only punishment was death.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 3, 2014 23:08:20 GMT
The law of the sea stipulated that a sailor of a merchant ship was only paid if he remained with the ship until it reached port. So a sailor who deserted before then (or was 'pressed) got nothing. Merchant captains were not above convincing men that the best way to avoid the press was to take a boat ashore before an approaching man of war could press them, knowing full well that would save money by not having to pay them. (This is also the most likely reason that the sailors of returning ships were not above forcibly resisting attempts to press them).
As far as desertion from the Royal Navy goes. You are correct that technically the punishment was to be hung, and that is certainly what the Navy itself liked to promote.
The reality however was that the Navy rarely hung deserters, in fact the punishments handed out were usually floggings - and fairly moderate ones for the period. Much depended on why you hadn't rejoined your ship, if for example you'd ended up in the local hospital having fallen down a flight of stairs chances were that you'd get off very lightly.
Court Martial's often performed astonishing acts of legal gymnastics to avoid having to hang men. Part of this was an understanding that Naval Law, and certainly the Articles of War, had its limitations and if applied literally could be rather unfair.
For one example Naval law of the period included assault and murder, but not manslaughter. So if, as was the case with one drunken Bosun, hit a man with an oar in a fit of anger and he died technically you should be hanged. This particular Bosun avoided that fate after the Court performed what could be described as rather creative logic to the situation.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 4, 2014 7:58:37 GMT
Yes, but, the native Australians were not that happy about it, and it seams that they were never any push-over on the subject, as they see it, someone from a tiny whiney likkle european island smaller than New Zealand steps one foot on their shore and claims the whole lot for someone they never heard of?....
They were not all that happy about it.
Then we start sending them Convicts.....
No one ever asked them for permission.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 4, 2014 9:05:44 GMT
It could have been worse, it could have been the French or Spanish who found them.
As bad as the British could be, they were probably better than any of the alternatives.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2014 14:54:40 GMT
It could have been worse, it could have been the French or Spanish who found them. As bad as the British could be, they were probably better than any of the alternatives. we must face the fact that we caucasians were not the best of houseguests, having a tendency to consider ourselves a superior lifeform; and the natives as something slightly to the side of livestock.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 4, 2014 15:27:02 GMT
Agreed.
In the case of Britain in the 1700's things were somewhat better than elsewhere in Europe. Part of this was probably down to the rarity of slavery within Britain itself, which while legal seems to have been socially frowned on. When Nelson returned to England after the Battle of the Nile and his time in Scilly that fact that he brought a black slave with him was commented on. Indicating that this was rather unusual occurrence.
Within England itself the view of slavery was probably tempered by the presence of various ethnic groups in the larger ports. It is one thing to support slavery when you are at a distance and the individuals in question are clearly 'different' in terms of culture. It is quite another when the only difference between you and them is appearance, and they not only have the exact same accent as you but were raised (or at least assimilated into) in the same culture. This would certainly explain why slavery within the UK was unusual and worth comment, but slavery in British possessions overseas (especially the Caribbean) was acceptable or at least not as unacceptable. A matter of out of sound out of mind no doubt.
The situation, maybe ironically, changed in the 1800's when slavery was abolished. In the Georgian period for example marrying into the local population have having kids was encouraged in India. It was only in the Victorian period that it started to become less acceptable and eventually frowned on.
Not that this makes Britain perfect, far from it, but it was the better than any of the other nations in many regards.
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Post by memeengine on Mar 4, 2014 18:09:00 GMT
we must face the fact that we caucasians were not the best of houseguests, having a tendency to consider ourselves a superior lifeform; and the natives as something slightly to the side of livestock. That's hardly a caucasian trait, more a human one. It's been true throughout history in all corners of the world. You'd be very hard pressed to find anywhere that one race or tribe hasn't lorded it over another when they got the chance. In such cases, they invariably excused their behavior with the belief that they were superior and therefore had the (God-given) right to act that way.
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Post by memeengine on Mar 4, 2014 19:04:43 GMT
As far as desertion from the Royal Navy goes. You are correct that technically the punishment was to be hung, and that is certainly what the Navy itself liked to promote. Technically, the punishment was death, as the method of execution wasn't proscribed by the Articles (in any of the three versions). While hanging was by far the most common form, the most famous victim of the Articles of War, Admiral Byng, was shot. The reality however was that the Navy rarely hung deserters, in fact the punishments handed out were usually floggings - and fairly moderate ones for the period. Much depended on why you hadn't rejoined your ship, if for example you'd ended up in the local hospital having fallen down a flight of stairs chances were that you'd get off very lightly. I would imagine, in the example you quoted, that it would be very unlikely for the man to be charged with desertion in such circumstances. Just was it was on land, you could only be convicted of the offences for which you were tried. So if the offender was a particularly valuable seaman, it wouldn't be too difficult to rework the charges to bring about a lesser punishment. As Michael Lewis says (in A Social History of the Navy 1793-1815) "Deserter or not, he was still a 'hand' and, as such, a commodity more valuable alive than dead.". Indeed, it could be argued, from the point of view of the offender, that the worst punishment for desertion was being made to continue in service.
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