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Post by the light works on Mar 7, 2014 15:48:17 GMT
{Moved to movie myths and edited the title to make it clearer where the ideas are coming from - CM}
I am currently watching old episodes of Arrow in my spare time - and I have noticed they are playing pretty fast and loose with the characteristics of the bow.
it occurred to me there are a lot of bow-specific myths that the mythbusters could address.
among them - whether there is a difference between arrow penetration between a compound and a recurve bow. they could also address various other styles of bow - from the english longbow to some of the more exotic east asian recurves.
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Post by the light works on Mar 7, 2014 15:50:08 GMT
if they wanted to do a show specific myth, they could address whether it is possible to shoot an arrow through a freefalling (or sitting on a flat surface) tennis ball, as he does in the pilot episode.
(addendum: this is more at the physics of it than the skill of the archer)
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Post by the light works on Mar 7, 2014 15:54:15 GMT
another myth would be: all of the video I have seen of archers firing rapid-fire have had the archer walking while shooting. is it possible for an archer to rapid-fire while their feet are secured to the floor; or is the walking part of the mechanics of the shooting?
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Post by ironhold on Mar 8, 2014 2:50:54 GMT
This is the "weapons facts" board, not the myths board.
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Post by the light works on Mar 8, 2014 3:33:51 GMT
This is the "weapons facts" board, not the myths board. so I see. perhaps Cyber will be good enough to move it to the appropriate board.
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Post by memeengine on Mar 8, 2014 11:49:02 GMT
whether there is a difference between arrow penetration between a compound and a recurve bow. they could also address various other styles of bow - from the english longbow to some of the more exotic east asian recurves. I think that would very rapidly fall into the 'too many variables' category for any useful conclusion to be reached. Target penetration is a function of the system as a whole; the skill and strength of the archer, the energy transfer characteristics of the individual bow, the flight characteristics of the individual arrow, the cutting/piercing capability of the particular arrow head and the material construction of the target. Given the potential variations of all those, you would have enough difficulty in establishing meaningful "target pentration" figures for just a single type of bow. Now you could try to eliminate some of those variables by stating that a mechanical rig is used to shoot the bow, that the same arrow/arrowhead and the same target is used for all of the tests. However, that could well result in an unintended bias creeping into the results. For example, arrow design was tailored to the bows that shot them, and likewise, arrow head designs were tailored to the arrows that carried them and to their intended targets. Trying to use the same arrows/arrowheads for all of the bows & targets in the test would be like testing different calibre handguns and then insisting that they all fire 9mm ammunition.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 8, 2014 12:31:10 GMT
To add to that not all bows were designed to be fired the same way, so the capabilities from bench-testing could be misleading.
For example bows that were intended to be fired from horseback tend to be shorter than bows that were intended to be fired from a standing position, which usually results in a lower draw-weight, less power and less range.
You see much the same with firearms, with carbines usually having less power and range than rifles firing the exact same cartridge.
Different weapons are designed for different situations, and can't always be compared accurately with each other outside the situation they were developed for. So while an English Longbow would make a Japanese Yumi look anaemic if both are fired from the standing position, it would not fair as well if you were firing while kneeling or on a horse. Likewise the composite bows used by the Mongol's lacked both power and range compared to the European crossbow. But the Mongol's preferred swift hit and run attacks, and in this context their bows were 'better' because they had a far greater rate of fire as well as considerably more mobility.
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Post by the light works on Mar 8, 2014 15:04:03 GMT
whether there is a difference between arrow penetration between a compound and a recurve bow. they could also address various other styles of bow - from the english longbow to some of the more exotic east asian recurves. I think that would very rapidly fall into the 'too many variables' category for any useful conclusion to be reached. Target penetration is a function of the system as a whole; the skill and strength of the archer, the energy transfer characteristics of the individual bow, the flight characteristics of the individual arrow, the cutting/piercing capability of the particular arrow head and the material construction of the target. Given the potential variations of all those, you would have enough difficulty in establishing meaningful "target pentration" figures for just a single type of bow. Now you could try to eliminate some of those variables by stating that a mechanical rig is used to shoot the bow, that the same arrow/arrowhead and the same target is used for all of the tests. However, that could well result in an unintended bias creeping into the results. For example, arrow design was tailored to the bows that shot them, and likewise, arrow head designs were tailored to the arrows that carried them and to their intended targets. Trying to use the same arrows/arrowheads for all of the bows & targets in the test would be like testing different calibre handguns and then insisting that they all fire 9mm ammunition. Or I could eliminate the variables, by saying that in the scene; the arrows were broadheads, and the target was a human being. however, you bring up a point - the it may have been the arrows, rather than the penetration that were distinctive enough to make the identification. (back story - they looked at the victim and identified that the shooter was using a compound bow)
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 11, 2014 10:35:54 GMT
We're talking bow and arrow myths in general here, right?
How about the good old movie trick of attatching a rope of some sort to an arrow, firing it at a surface of some sort and using the rope to climb/swing/slide from one place to another?
This has been done so many times in moviesand TV shows that are set in different eras that they could try anything from an old longbow to a modern composit bow to see if it's even possible to just get an arrow to carry the rope, hit where you want and penetrate deep enough that it can be used as intended. I've also seen it done where the arrow didn't penetrate anything, but rather "got stuck" like a grappling hook.
I've always had my doubts that this would work, since I suspect the rope would change the flight characteristics of the arrow too much to even get it where you want it to go. Then we're supposed to believe that this flimsy little arrow can hold the weight of a full grown adult with whatever equipment the person is carrying along with them...? Not buying it, but I'm ready to be proven wrong.
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Post by the light works on Mar 11, 2014 13:38:47 GMT
We're talking bow and arrow myths in general here, right? How about the good old movie trick of attatching a rope of some sort to an arrow, firing it at a surface of some sort and using the rope to climb/swing/slide from one place to another? This has been done so many times in moviesand TV shows that are set in different eras that they could try anything from an old longbow to a modern composit bow to see if it's even possible to just get an arrow to carry the rope, hit where you want and penetrate deep enough that it can be used as intended. I've also seen it done where the arrow didn't penetrate anything, but rather "got stuck" like a grappling hook. I've always had my doubts that this would work, since I suspect the rope would change the flight characteristics of the arrow too much to even get it where you want it to go. Then we're supposed to believe that this flimsy little arrow can hold the weight of a full grown adult with whatever equipment the person is carrying along with them...? Not buying it, but I'm ready to be proven wrong. That is probably a little closer to their first Superhero special than would be best for originality. the launcher is slightly different, but they did a grapple gun to slide on a rope in that. it is one of those cases where it is derived from a real thing. line launchers are nothing impossible - but they were used to deliver a lightweight line to be used to pull the real rope. but yes, this thread is probably the best repository for any myths about the capabilities of a bow or the capabilities of an arrow.
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 4, 2014 11:06:00 GMT
The thread could actually be for any myths that come from the TV series Arrow - sometimes myths need some kind of framework or context to make them work on the show.
This would both broaden what they could look at, while at the same time help narrow specifics down enough that they could do practical testing. For example looking at bows in relation to Arrow would narrow the list down to three; A recurve bow used in season 1, a longbow used in a few episodes of season 1&2 and a compound bow used in season 2. Just as importantly one of those bows, the longbow, is actually given a drawweight of 150lbs.
I think this series has potential, from trick arrows to what bows can do to maybe even some of the stunts. Having watched season 1 and parts of season 2 recently I'm starting to like this show. Which has the distinction of being the only TV show I've ever watched where I could go back and randomly pick out any episode to watch without running into one that I feel compelled to skip or dislike. So I'd like to think MB might do an episode based on this.
Aside; Stephen Amell, the star of the show, is VERY active on Facebook and also very active with raising money for charity. He just raised $100,000 for a family who's child needs medical attention (I forget what the child has) by auctioning off several of his old scrips. He has also decided to help another child by raffling off...something...in the near future. He did a raffle earlier in the year to raise money for charity which seemed to be popular - DC even sent him several additional Oliver Queen models to add to those being raffled off. Even if you are not a fan of the show, if you are on facebook follow him just for this - and even if you don't want the prizes and happen to win you could always ask him to sell the item on ebay and put the money into the pot.
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Post by the light works on Sept 4, 2014 14:59:31 GMT
The thread could actually be for any myths that come from the TV series Arrow - sometimes myths need some kind of framework or context to make them work on the show. This would both broaden what they could look at, while at the same time help narrow specifics down enough that they could do practical testing. For example looking at bows in relation to Arrow would narrow the list down to three; A recurve bow used in season 1, a longbow used in a few episodes of season 1&2 and a compound bow used in season 2. Just as importantly one of those bows, the longbow, is actually given a drawweight of 150lbs. I think this series has potential, from trick arrows to what bows can do to maybe even some of the stunts. Having watched season 1 and parts of season 2 recently I'm starting to like this show. Which has the distinction of being the only TV show I've ever watched where I could go back and randomly pick out any episode to watch without running into one that I feel compelled to skip or dislike. So I'd like to think MB might do an episode based on this. Aside; Stephen Amell, the star of the show, is VERY active on Facebook and also very active with raising money for charity. He just raised $100,000 for a family who's child needs medical attention (I forget what the child has) by auctioning off several of his old scrips. He has also decided to help another child by raffling off...something...in the near future. He did a raffle earlier in the year to raise money for charity which seemed to be popular - DC even sent him several additional Oliver Queen models to add to those being raffled off. Even if you are not a fan of the show, if you are on facebook follow him just for this - and even if you don't want the prizes and happen to win you could always ask him to sell the item on ebay and put the money into the pot. I don't do facebook - but I did like season 1 and am waiting for season 2 on DVD.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 5, 2014 8:40:55 GMT
I did an ask one time of an Archery Expert on the idea that an arrow fired from a Bow could hold someone's weight if a rope was attached.
His opinion was no.
To start with, it could only have the penetration of the draw of the bow at best. As in, if you tried to pull it back out, you should be able to do so with a straight pointed arrow. If the top was barbed to prevent it being pulled out, thats better, but then you still have a rope attached to it to "Swing" from.... That rope will eventually slow down the bow. How strong is your rope?... Period dramas that portray Robbin Hood would be of Hemp, and you would need one thick rope to hold a human weight. How does that affect the range of the arrow...
So perhaps no to a period bow and rope.
Cross-bow, well, that different, but by how much?... His opinion would be a short distance only, because of the weight of the rope slowing the bolt.
How much?.. unknown, we never physically tested that.
Modern compound bows and mono-filament ropes... unknown.
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Post by the light works on Sept 5, 2014 14:03:48 GMT
I did an ask one time of an Archery Expert on the idea that an arrow fired from a Bow could hold someone's weight if a rope was attached. His opinion was no. To start with, it could only have the penetration of the draw of the bow at best. As in, if you tried to pull it back out, you should be able to do so with a straight pointed arrow. If the top was barbed to prevent it being pulled out, thats better, but then you still have a rope attached to it to "Swing" from.... That rope will eventually slow down the bow. How strong is your rope?... Period dramas that portray Robbin Hood would be of Hemp, and you would need one thick rope to hold a human weight. How does that affect the range of the arrow... So perhaps no to a period bow and rope. Cross-bow, well, that different, but by how much?... His opinion would be a short distance only, because of the weight of the rope slowing the bolt. How much?.. unknown, we never physically tested that. Modern compound bows and mono-filament ropes... unknown. advanced synthetics, not monofilament. I have synthetic kite strings rated for 300 and 450 pounds - the 300# lines are slightly thicker than the string used to tie bundles in old department stores.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 5, 2014 18:13:14 GMT
I have "Para Cord", its like string, I am assured by my Kid who is a Cadet it will hold my weight.... I dont trust them that much?............
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Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2014 0:07:58 GMT
I have "Para Cord", its like string, I am assured by my Kid who is a Cadet it will hold my weight.... I dont trust them that much?............ Attachment DeletedI believe I was already using the 450# at that time - the heavy lines you can see are the risers - those are 1/4" commercial fishing line. I think they are rated for over 1000# (edit - yes, I can see form the color of the handles those are the 450s
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 7, 2014 8:58:16 GMT
I have no idea to what you are referencing.....
I know "Para cord" as one of my Kids is a Cadet, but I dont know what "Flavour" it is?.... (Tastes like chicken...)
I know String, I know Rope,
For me, "Tug test", you give it a sharp snap between two fists to gauge how strong it may be, but thicker should also be stronger... note the semi sarcasm of "Should" there?... I know thats now outdated with lighter stronger lines available, but I dont know how..... In Trucking, we still stick to what we know, THICK rope, its better at holding down sheeting. Straps are better as wide as you can get them, the more surface area on the strap, the better the grip it can get on the load?.... We have no need for thin, its counter productive. We also have no need for lightweight. We want stuff you can throw around and not damage. Thats why the hooks we use are STEEL... heavy lumps that can give you a bad day if the come loose and shoot n your direction, they are STEEL steel, you could run over them in a tank and they would suffer no damage. Mainly because one day that will happen....
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Post by the light works on Sept 7, 2014 14:13:23 GMT
I have no idea to what you are referencing..... I know "Para cord" as one of my Kids is a Cadet, but I dont know what "Flavour" it is?.... (Tastes like chicken...) I know String, I know Rope, For me, "Tug test", you give it a sharp snap between two fists to gauge how strong it may be, but thicker should also be stronger... note the semi sarcasm of "Should" there?... I know thats now outdated with lighter stronger lines available, but I dont know how..... In Trucking, we still stick to what we know, THICK rope, its better at holding down sheeting. Straps are better as wide as you can get them, the more surface area on the strap, the better the grip it can get on the load?.... We have no need for thin, its counter productive. We also have no need for lightweight. We want stuff you can throw around and not damage. Thats why the hooks we use are STEEL... heavy lumps that can give you a bad day if the come loose and shoot n your direction, they are STEEL steel, you could run over them in a tank and they would suffer no damage. Mainly because one day that will happen.... right, in tie downs you want a lot of surface area, and you want it to have just the slightest bit of wiggle. - so the load can flex with the trailer, without coming loose. in kite flying, you want it to be as skinny as possible, so it doesn't catch wind, and you want it to have no stretch to it at all, so all of your control motion goes directly to the kite, instead of being soaked up by the lines stretching and returning. if you are going to be sending a line with a bow, you want it to have as much strength as possible, but still maintain light weight, flexibility, and stretchiness - to transmit as little of the wiggle of working with it to the arrow which is supposed to be anchoring it. the more you wiggle the arrow, the more chance it has of coming back out of whatever you shot it into. monofilament is much less flexible than multistranded line. addendum: to understand my statement, consider what it would be like strapping down a load with a strap made of a single strand of plastic - like a huge zip tie.
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 7, 2014 14:15:55 GMT
The 'rope' used on Arrow appears to be some type of metal cable, at least it was in the pilot episode.
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Post by the light works on Sept 7, 2014 14:42:41 GMT
The 'rope' used on Arrow appears to be some type of metal cable, at least it was in the pilot episode. I don't remember the show in that much detail.
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