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Post by Cybermortis on Apr 8, 2014 11:13:46 GMT
I'm not an expert on Waterloo, being more interested in the Navy than the Army (Which is somewhat strange considering that the Navy is the one service no one in my family has ever served in). My knowledge of the cavalry battle comes exclusively from the Royal Horse Guards, who were involved in the cavalry melee. I can't remember if they mentioned the later charge by the French reserves, or if that was when they offered to counter-charge even though they knew that their horses hadn't fully recovered from the earlier fight. The book I have is very large and detailed, and Waterloo comprises a very small part of the Horse Guards history. In fact the guards main job during the Napoleonic wars was body guards for King George, they only ended up fighting at Waterloo because they were one of the few cavalry units available for deployment at that time.
Even if there were those who remembered armour wearing cavalry in Kelly's time, they would not have been serving in the police. They also wouldn't have expected armour as something civilians would have put together let alone worn. So even if they had been there and heard bullets hitting metal they would probably have assumed there were metal objects inside the building the gang was hold up in that kept getting hit. It would be much the same as a modern SWAT team facing a gang who'd put together their own tank using stolen material. The evidence for the 'tanks' existence would be there when you looked afterwards, but at the time you would not expect to encounter one.
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Post by the light works on Apr 8, 2014 14:23:08 GMT
a quick search shows that Ned Kelly was, indeed, born in Australia - and may or may not have had such elements in his history books.
as for Waterloo, I had an ancestor, there - but the only insider knowledge I have is that he had his horse shot out from under him during the battle and got another one by the simple expedient of knocking a British officer off of his.
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 9, 2014 7:18:32 GMT
I have had ancestors in most major skirmishes that have happened in history.... Not quite sure what that says about them?... Hero or Gullible?... My stint was Falklands era and AWACS systems, 'Lec Teck A/R, electric technician air radar, it started off that I fixed the bloody things when they broke, more ground based than anything, was a general "Gofor", I went around searching for parts, got involved with what would now be called Logistics, and ended up as supplies.... As in, I hid in the cupboard and when anyone came in the room, I jumped out and shouted "SUPPLIES".... They got the joke eventually. This is why I an now Transport based... it started off me trundling from one parts shed to another in a landy of questionable parentage, as it it was nick-named Bar-Steward every time it refused to start?... Which is where a common phrase came fro, after several fails, a fiend was seen under the hood, and a string of Bar-Steward Bar-Steward Bar-Steward Bar-Steward Bar-Steward later, someone was heard to remark that he sounded like someone trying to kick-start a wet sea-lion....
Strange that, here we are,(Were) a bunch of highly skilled electric technicians, but we never DID get the wiring fault on the landy sorted?... But I then got to go for the BIG parts in a small 7.5, and I liked it. Yes we did have people I could phone and ask to send things over, 'cept it was always "Maybe tuesday next week", it was much quicker to go fetch it myself?...
Back to armourments, the "Tradition" of wearing certain uniforms, yes, in later battle, strange things got worn, but that was more Identity than usefulness, that brigade ALWAYS wore that particular item?...
My Granddad, after turning up late to a parade, nearly started a tradition of having a Bulrush in his Buzby , 'cept by the third occasion it was quashed.... something about the number of them going missing from the lake in Windsor....
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Post by the light works on Apr 9, 2014 14:04:14 GMT
The standing joke is "my great ancestor fought with Napoleon at Waterloo, another fought with Washington in the revolution, another fought with Grant in the civil war, and my grandfather fought with MacArthur in the Philippines... my family couldn't get along with anyone. as for the Landy - it was British, nobody can get them sorted, but the woodwork is certainly nice.
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Post by mrfatso on Apr 9, 2014 17:03:46 GMT
He was born in Australia, but at at time when many of the settlers would have included people who had fathers, and Grandfathers that may have been at Waterloo, even some older men may have been there themselves. He was born in 1854, 41 years after Waterloo, 3,years after the state of Victoria became a Colony.
But I am not arguing about wether Ned Kelly or the Police knew about armour, just mentioning that Armour was in use on European Battlefields later than 230 years before the events of 1880.
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Post by the light works on Apr 9, 2014 17:47:00 GMT
The biggest challenge is that we don't have anyone available for reliable interviews of what actually happened, and what people were thinking during the firefight. I think that given the circumstances, that the account was definitely embellished if not written in its entirety significantly after the conclusion of the entire affair.
so myths could also include - is it possible to know that bullets are striking armor in a nighttime firefight, shooting into a building?
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Post by Lex Of Sydney Australia on Apr 10, 2014 7:08:00 GMT
The story seems to have been filed at least a day or two later. In fact I'm not even clear if the reporter was in fact present at the time, or if he wrote the story from interviewing those present. I doubt that even the most intrepid reporter would have wanted to get closer to the Kelly gang than the police when the two were in the middle of a shoot out. Nor do I think the police would have let civilians, press or not, get that close. We should probably also consider the possibility that the editor may have 'juiced up' the story rather than the reporter. This was a period when the press were even more inclined to make things up to sell papers than they are today. Something that can be shown by looking at American papers from the same period, and some of the rather...fantastical...stories they liked to print as well as the hyperbole that crept into even the most mundane stories. The biggest challenge is that we don't have anyone available for reliable interviews of what actually happened, and what people were thinking during the firefight. I think that given the circumstances, that the account was definitely embellished if not written in its entirety significantly after the conclusion of the entire affair. so myths could also include - is it possible to know that bullets are striking armor in a nighttime firefight, shooting into a building? From what I remember from my history class there were NO reporters on the scene at the time of the shootout between the Kelly Gang & the Police, & that they (the press) were given all the information about the story from the Police who'd been involved & were NOT allowed to speak to Ned Kelly to gain his 'side' of the story. Unlike today press back then didn't travel to & report directly from the scene of the crime. & the modern concept of 'free press' didn't exist back then, the authorities in colonial Australia weren't to keen over all on the press & did their best to control what information the public received. The press often had to wait & received their 'information' about events like this from the authorities - often several days after the events had happened, &/or from 'witness' who'd been there at the time. Again this would often take place several days after the events had happened giving them (the 'witnesses') time to embellish their 'stories' in the hopes of being paid by the press for their 'help' &/or getting their names in the paper.
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Post by Lex Of Sydney Australia on Apr 10, 2014 7:12:41 GMT
The standing joke is "my great ancestor fought with Napoleon at Waterloo, another fought with Washington in the revolution, another fought with Grant in the civil war, and my grandfather fought with MacArthur in the Philippines... my family couldn't get along with anyone. as for the Landy - it was British, nobody can get them sorted, but the woodwork is certainly nice. ROTFLMAO! Good one! I'm so stealing this joke TLW!
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Post by the light works on Apr 10, 2014 14:23:19 GMT
The standing joke is "my great ancestor fought with Napoleon at Waterloo, another fought with Washington in the revolution, another fought with Grant in the civil war, and my grandfather fought with MacArthur in the Philippines... my family couldn't get along with anyone. as for the Landy - it was British, nobody can get them sorted, but the woodwork is certainly nice. ROTFLMAO! Good one! I'm so stealing this joke TLW! just fill in the appropriate wars to customize it to suit. (actually, Napoleon is the only commander we have reports of ancestry fighting directly under - the other wars are correct, but we don't have units or commanders handy - though my grandfather says he was mostly driving a garbage truck for the Navy in the Philippines - close enough to have air raids but not so close as to be directly in combat.
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Post by rick4070 on Apr 29, 2014 23:07:01 GMT
Another thing to remember is that the bullets used in 1880 would have been lead alloy, non-copper jacketed, and a fairly sofft alloy at that, common alloys would have been something like 1 part tin to 16 parts lead, or even 1 part tin to 20 parts lead.
I use 1 part tin to 30 parts lead in my Shiloh 1874 Sharps, and even that soft alloy works very well
Copper jacketed bullets weren't around until the early 1890's. So, 1/4" of steel is going to stop any bullet that I can think of that would have been used...
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Post by the light works on Apr 29, 2014 23:45:34 GMT
Another thing to remember is that the bullets used in 1880 would have been lead alloy, non-copper jacketed, and a fairly sofft alloy at that, common alloys would have been something like 1 part tin to 16 parts lead, or even 1 part tin to 20 parts lead. I use 1 part tin to 30 parts lead in my Shiloh 1874 Sharps, and even that soft alloy works very well Copper jacketed bullets weren't around until the early 1890's. So, 1/4" of steel is going to stop any bullet that I can think of that would have been used... ah, good point.
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Post by rick4070 on Apr 30, 2014 0:06:28 GMT
Actually, I was a little wrong on my date..... After looking it up, copper jacketed bullets were first available in 1882, or 1883, depending on what source I looked at. That being said, it is still after 1880, so no copper jacketed pointy bullets would have been used on Ned..... Also, around that same time, a "hardened" lead bullet was used in at least one rifle caliber, but even "hardened," 1/4" steel would stop it. Sorry for the misinformation.
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