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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 14:56:52 GMT
this is an extension of the "passenger lands a plane" thread.
the question has come up, of other vehicles, and whether an untrained person can drive them.
to make the challenge simple, I would like to place the scenario as, the vehicle is away from a reasonable debarking place, and the driver is incapacitated. can a reasonably competent person figure out how to make the vehicle go from where it is, to a place where they can safely park it. the possibilities already mentioned are diesel locomotives, steam locomotives (assuming it has steam up - we don't want to make it too hard), specialty trucks, boats, both large and small, and also travel trailers (caravans)
(and yes, I know a reasonably competent person would drop the caravan and just drive the tow vehicle - yet my grandparents did their last couple vacations in a compact motorhome, because my grandmother felt less intimidated by the thought of driving the motorhome than the trailer.)
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 14:57:53 GMT
addendum: assume no immediate danger - as there is less hazard in not being in a rush to get started.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 20, 2014 15:26:51 GMT
I'm envisioning getting a group of volunteers in who hold standard driving licenses, but who haven't driven anything but 'unmodified' cars (that is no vans, trucks or trailers). Put them in the vehicle of choice and have them drive around a course to test out their skills behind the wheel, comparing that to an initial run with a car.
A lot of people seem to assume that a standard driving license means that they can drive anything with wheels, and (at least in the UK) there are a lot of different vehicles that legally you can drive with only a standard license. (Caravans are a good example). Of course just because you can legally drive something doesn't mean that you are safe behind the wheel, which is what could be looked at.
They could also test to see if off-road driving is as easy as a lot of people think it is, or if people would really know how to handle a skid or hitting black ice.
The common theme behind all these is that it is said that people tend to overrate their driving skills, with most people claiming that they are 'average' or 'above average' if asked to rate themselves. Testing to see if people really do overrate their own skills and safety seems like a good topic, and one that might also be informative. (I'm betting that a LOT of viewers would never question the difficulty in driving while towing a load, beyond maybe if their car is capable of doing so).
Thanks for posting the idea Light, I'm busy working so can only spend a few minutes at a time to post right now.
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 15:46:42 GMT
I'm envisioning getting a group of volunteers in who hold standard driving licenses, but who haven't driven anything but 'unmodified' cars (that is no vans, trucks or trailers). Put them in the vehicle of choice and have them drive around a course to test out their skills behind the wheel, comparing that to an initial run with a car. A lot of people seem to assume that a standard driving license means that they can drive anything with wheels, and (at least in the UK) there are a lot of different vehicles that legally you can drive with only a standard license. (Caravans are a good example). Of course just because you can legally drive something doesn't mean that you are safe behind the wheel, which is what could be looked at. They could also test to see if off-road driving is as easy as a lot of people think it is, or if people would really know how to handle a skid or hitting black ice. The common theme behind all these is that it is said that people tend to overrate their driving skills, with most people claiming that they are 'average' or 'above average' if asked to rate themselves. Testing to see if people really do overrate their own skills and safety seems like a good topic, and one that might also be informative. (I'm betting that a LOT of viewers would never question the difficulty in driving while towing a load, beyond maybe if their car is capable of doing so). Thanks for posting the idea Light, I'm busy working so can only spend a few minutes at a time to post right now. hadn't originally thought of driving in adverse conditions, but lets keep that in this thread as a possibility. - keep the theme of dealing with adversity rather than recreational stupidity, though.
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Post by c64 on Jul 20, 2014 17:29:33 GMT
and I'll admit it would be interesting to see how easy steam trains are to drive, even for drivers of modern trains. Looks easy enough (first half of this film)
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 20, 2014 17:57:58 GMT
It isn't just a matter of knowing how to use the controls, but in being able to predict what moves you can pull off and how much space you need to, say, take corners, stop or move from lane to lane.
Clearly getting things wrong if you get straight into a 18 wheeler is not exactly going to be much of a surprise, chances are that I could drive a large truck in a straight line or follow a fairly straight road without any trouble. Taking a corner or switching lanes on the other hand...well lets just say I'd be praying no one else was on the road at the time.
The real interesting thing is if this would also apply to other vehicles and when towing loads. I'm guessing a depressingly large number of drivers badly overestimate their skills to drive larger vehicles or tow loads, especially if those things don't require a separate test or license.
{I'm going to move this and the above post to the thread Lightworks started in the Show Ideas forum shortly. Please post any replies on this in that thread and not here - CM}
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 21:44:36 GMT
this is the insert point for the conversation being moved from the landing an airplane thread
in the US, a "drivers license" typically covers privately owned vehicles, not driven for hire; and similar size vehicles if incidental to the job the person is being paid for. (for example, my license covers me driving the work truck to the jobsite) it lso covers motor driven cycles with less than 50cc engine displacement. on top of this, you may get endorsed to ride motorcycles, or be paid to carry passengers, or drive a tractor-trailer (with several levels of additional licensing for specialty rigs)
this makes things easy in some ways - as, for example, C64 could not legally drive my work truck in Germany. but on the other hand, a person can take their driving test in a Volkswagen Golf (I think that's universal enough for everyone to recognize) and then climb in a 40 foot motorhome with a 30 foot trailer behind it, on the same license.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 20, 2014 22:14:50 GMT
In regards testing vehicles that lie 'outside' the standard driving license we are, of course, dealing with US licenses since that is where MB is filmed and where they get their victims from.
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Post by the light works on Jul 21, 2014 2:10:03 GMT
In regards testing vehicles that lie 'outside' the standard driving license we are, of course, dealing with US licenses since that is where MB is filmed and where they get their victims from. I think rather than just vehicles outside of the standard driving license, we should be looking at vehicles with significantly different controls.
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 23, 2014 7:26:50 GMT
In England, the licence has changed many times over the years... The important one here is that you are no restricted to Light maximum 2ton(ish) vans and can NOT tow a trailer at all without a further competency test.
I am therefore presuming that the DVLA Authority has had a sudden influx of common sense and realised that you cant just hitch up to a Caravan trailer and run with it, learning on the go.....
And being brutally honest here, actually, they are right. The people who could just run with it and learn enough to be safe on the go are that type of people we could do with passing the test... Its the ones who do NOT learn and end up as a statistic that we should worry about.
In my experience, learning on the go, it was some twenty mins before someone realised Caravan trailers had handbrakes. In honesty, they had spent about five of those minutes working out how to drop the front end enough to go on the tow hitch.... you have to wind up the front dolly wheel.... But the tried a tug-test, yes its hitched solidly... But it wasn't for rolling.... I even saw them open the door and count the wheel chocks to make sure they hadnt mistakenly left one underneath?... At this point, they took a look, and started wondering if indeed they should connect that big "Plug" thing to the socket next the tow hitch.. would electrics help?...
I was sat ther4e watching from a distance, on my Lunch break, and I wasnt sure if I should do anything... If I did would I be just letting another idiot loose on the roads?...
On to me. Its sort of relevant... Every time I drive something different, I go through a familiarization routine, I check double check and count twice where everything is. I have witnessed a driver in a hurry park up at dusk in the yard, "Glad I got back before sunset"... Is he a bloody day walker vampire?... No, its just thats the first time he drove that truck and he didnt know where the headlights are?.... Honestly..... Seriously... Do people drive and NOT know where the lights are?... Erm... It got me intrigued. Out of about six dozen people I asked, about half of them either had done that themselves or knew someone who had never used the headlights. This wasnt just new car and had had to find the lights, this was had had to get home before dark because they actually had never bothered to find out where the lights are.
When I passes my driving test, I was allowed to drive a 7.5 tone light goods vehicle. With Trailer. That allowance is now two stages up from a normal driving licence. I think we all know why....
Stupid people can drive.
I think this affects people world wide, not just UK, so yes, use USA restrictions, but where relevant, mention its not just USA that prohibits car drivers from operating anything on wheels without further licence tests...
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Post by c64 on Jul 23, 2014 11:32:06 GMT
While modern cars are very tolerant when it comes to driver errors, motor-tools are not!
There is a good reason why special forms of motor-tools need very special licenses:
And since it takes years of experience to forget basic safety rules, some of them expire and have to be renewed with mandatory training. But unfortunately many of those licenses don't. When I look at my driver's license card, the licenses which have the greatest devastating potentials don't expire at all. The ones who do don't require that much skill to prevent accidents.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 23, 2014 13:15:40 GMT
It isn't (or at least wasn't) required as part of the training or tests. I only knew where the lights were because I had a very good instructor and had to drive back home after a lesson as it was getting dark.
The first time I was driving at night, or at least as it was getting dark, my friend who I was visiting asked why I didn't have my headlights on as I pulled up. Turned out I'd been driving around for hour with no headlights without knowing it. The problem, for once, was not the idiot behind the wheel but that the power cables for the headlight had come free and had been resting on the fanbelt - which had cut halfway through the cable. Thankfully the route I was driving was well lit and the sidelights were still working (which is one reason I hadn't realized the headlights were not working).
Took the AA guy five minutes to repair the cable and secure it.
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Post by the light works on Jul 23, 2014 13:38:44 GMT
In England, the licence has changed many times over the years... The important one here is that you are no restricted to Light maximum 2ton(ish) vans and can NOT tow a trailer at all without a further competency test. I am therefore presuming that the DVLA Authority has had a sudden influx of common sense and realised that you cant just hitch up to a Caravan trailer and run with it, learning on the go..... And being brutally honest here, actually, they are right. The people who could just run with it and learn enough to be safe on the go are that type of people we could do with passing the test... Its the ones who do NOT learn and end up as a statistic that we should worry about. In my experience, learning on the go, it was some twenty mins before someone realised Caravan trailers had handbrakes. In honesty, they had spent about five of those minutes working out how to drop the front end enough to go on the tow hitch.... you have to wind up the front dolly wheel.... But the tried a tug-test, yes its hitched solidly... But it wasn't for rolling.... I even saw them open the door and count the wheel chocks to make sure they hadnt mistakenly left one underneath?... At this point, they took a look, and started wondering if indeed they should connect that big "Plug" thing to the socket next the tow hitch.. would electrics help?... I was sat ther4e watching from a distance, on my Lunch break, and I wasnt sure if I should do anything... If I did would I be just letting another idiot loose on the roads?... On to me. Its sort of relevant... Every time I drive something different, I go through a familiarization routine, I check double check and count twice where everything is. I have witnessed a driver in a hurry park up at dusk in the yard, "Glad I got back before sunset"... Is he a bloody day walker vampire?... No, its just thats the first time he drove that truck and he didnt know where the headlights are?.... Honestly..... Seriously... Do people drive and NOT know where the lights are?... Erm... It got me intrigued. Out of about six dozen people I asked, about half of them either had done that themselves or knew someone who had never used the headlights. This wasnt just new car and had had to find the lights, this was had had to get home before dark because they actually had never bothered to find out where the lights are. When I passes my driving test, I was allowed to drive a 7.5 tone light goods vehicle. With Trailer. That allowance is now two stages up from a normal driving licence. I think we all know why.... Stupid people can drive. I think this affects people world wide, not just UK, so yes, use USA restrictions, but where relevant, mention its not just USA that prohibits car drivers from operating anything on wheels without further licence tests... you didn't read closely. a "standard" drivers license, in the US will allow a person to drive anything with more than three wheels - as long as they are not getting paid for it.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 23, 2014 14:26:52 GMT
As I noted, as the show is filmed in SF and any volunteers they get in will be American. As such we have to look at what US licenses in general, and Californian licenses in particular, allow.
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Post by the light works on Jul 23, 2014 14:38:54 GMT
As I noted, as the show is filmed in SF and any volunteers they get in will be American. As such we have to look at what US licenses in general, and Californian licenses in particular, allow. I am saying they should ignore the license and look only at people's experience. - because US licenses are so open ended.
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Post by c64 on Jul 23, 2014 15:08:26 GMT
As I noted, as the show is filmed in SF and any volunteers they get in will be American. As such we have to look at what US licenses in general, and Californian licenses in particular, allow. I am saying they should ignore the license and look only at people's experience. - because US licenses are so open ended. And since US driver's licenses are so easy to get, they are used as the common ID. I have read stories where US bartenders couldn't understand why blind people use something different than a driver's license to ID their age.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 23, 2014 15:10:47 GMT
We are actually saying the same thing;
We need to look at the kind of vehicles/loads that standard US licenses permit people to drive, but which the average driver will have no experience with. Then find people who don't have any experience driving those things.
This can be extended to cover unusual driving conditions - or at least the ones MB can replicate.
The basis is not just the ease at which you could move from one vehicle to another, but also that people have a tendency to over rate their driving skills and the ease with which it is to drive other vehicles or in certain conditions. I'm guessing that most drivers (especially male drivers) would claim to be able to handle a large truck as easily as their car or at least be able pick it up quickly.
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Post by the light works on Jul 23, 2014 15:36:22 GMT
We are actually saying the same thing; We need to look at the kind of vehicles/loads that standard US licenses permit people to drive, but which the average driver will have no experience with. Then find people who don't have any experience driving those things. This can be extended to cover unusual driving conditions - or at least the ones MB can replicate. The basis is not just the ease at which you could move from one vehicle to another, but also that people have a tendency to over rate their driving skills and the ease with which it is to drive other vehicles or in certain conditions. I'm guessing that most drivers (especially male drivers) would claim to be able to handle a large truck as easily as their car or at least be able pick it up quickly. I think we are looking at slightly different angles. I am looking at a "can I move the vehicle form point A to point B in an emergency?" sort of scenario. for example, a friend was out on a charter boat, and they found the skipper was completely drunk. one of the passengers was able to drive the boat back to harbor. (I believe he turned the controls over to a coast guardsman to enter the harbor, as the channel does require specific piloting skills)
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 23, 2014 15:47:14 GMT
I'm thinking along the lines of the guy (or girl) who, say, hires a big truck to move house and decides to drive it themselves without any prior experience. Or someone who gets a caravan/trailer hitches it to their car and takes off - again without any experience.
Not that both aspects could not be tested at the same time. 'Emergency' driving would involve more or less driving a fairly straight route with presumably no traffic. (If the situation is that serious you are going to stop and try to get help as soon as you see someone on the road). 'Day to day' driving is, to me, slightly more interesting because it is more common and requires avoiding hitting other drivers. This is also the area in which people are likely to overestimate what they can do or how easy something is to drive.
For example being able to show that driving with a trailer is not as easy as it seems, or has dangers you might not be aware of, might make one or two people think twice before driving on city streets or trying to belt down the freeway at top speed. This is the kind of thing that drivers are much more likely to be doing that being stuck in the middle of nowhere and having to try and get back to civilization.
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Post by the light works on Jul 23, 2014 15:57:01 GMT
I'm thinking along the lines of the guy (or girl) who, say, hires a big truck to move house and decides to drive it themselves without any prior experience. Or someone who gets a caravan/trailer hitches it to their car and takes off - again without any experience. Not that both aspects could not be tested at the same time. 'Emergency' driving would involve more or less driving a fairly straight route with presumably no traffic. (If the situation is that serious you are going to stop and try to get help as soon as you see someone on the road). 'Day to day' driving is, to me, slightly more interesting because it is more common and requires avoiding hitting other drivers. This is also the area in which people are likely to overestimate what they can do or how easy something is to drive. For example being able to show that driving with a trailer is not as easy as it seems, or has dangers you might not be aware of, might make one or two people think twice before driving on city streets or trying to belt down the freeway at top speed. This is the kind of thing that drivers are much more likely to be doing that being stuck in the middle of nowhere and having to try and get back to civilization. both are good possibilities. I recall years ago, a group in Oregon tried to get triple trailer trucks banned from the roads - they used a bumper sticker showing the comparative length between a triple trailer truck and 7 cars - which kind of backfired, because the opposition pointed out that a triple trailer truck was only as long as two luxury motorhomes towing cars - but the driver had to have several degrees more licensing to be allowed to drive the triples on the road.
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