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Post by the light works on Jul 23, 2014 15:59:38 GMT
I was towing a trailer before I had my drivers license. supervised, of course.
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Post by c64 on Jul 23, 2014 17:41:30 GMT
I was towing a trailer before I had my drivers license. supervised, of course. When I was 14, I had one of those: Small enough to tow logs through the woods without logger roads. Heavy enough to pull up to 10 tons of logs at once but still light enough to not tear the ground open. And not really supervised
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 24, 2014 9:39:43 GMT
I do not understand the USA licence fully. So, if I was an average American, as long as I am not being "paid", I can on a normal car drivers licence with no formal training, drive a 18 wheel articulated vehicle.... That doesnt make sense to me. How can that be legal?..
If you have the mechanical aptitude, working out what does what on any vehicle is probably logical if you think it through. Not everyone has that ability.... Trying to explain how a Router works to someone who has never used one isnt easy... Router as in the piece of woodworking equipment that has a fast spinning blade to make decorative edges to something there, not a wireless connection device. But saying that, I know someone who uses Wireless every day but has no idea how to set one up or even switch it off and back on again when it has a fault... they have to ask me.... Actually, thats more than just one person there. My whole family relies on me for "Technical support"
I think I may be looking at this from the wrong angle. I learnt to drive a Scammel truck hauling trailers full of Hay around a farm before I was ever allowed on the road, at the age I could reach the pedals.... so thats about 12 yrs old fully trained.... I drove farm tractors before that.
Its in the blood by now I suppose, working out technical things like that is just how I was bought up?... If it has wheels, I bet I could work it out... just give me a while to play with it so I get familiar with the controls and away I will go.
Well...Except super-fast hyper cars and Formula one. I refuse to exceed the posted speed limit for any reason these days.... I did all that when I was younger, I dont need that any more. I will still get a thrill when asked to move an expensive car from one place to another, just sitting in and pressing "Start" is enough of a buzz?.. "I have drove an Aventadore" (If thats even the right spelling", even if its only 100 yds to load and unload, saying I actually drove one, not everyone can say that. I have driven Old Bentleys. I have driven a Model "T" ford....
Now there is an Idea. So you think you can drive?... take 20 "I could drive anything" boastful people and give them a model "T" ford, see if they can work out the gear change, without instructions.....
Best done on the Alameda runway base thing they use.. plenty of space to get it wrong.
And yes, it did confuse the [CENSORED] out of me, its just not "Logical", hold a pedal down with your foot against a spring to hold a gear?... why do it that way?... Let it go, you get High ratio. Fine, but I am going slow on purpose, if I engage high, its going to stall. Its kind of like driving holding the clutch in.... as if you were free-wheeling down a hill... I think I would need time to run through it again before I tried that again. It didnt sit well in my experiences...
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 9:58:19 GMT
There are people who buy a small size tractor to pull their caravan. and they can do that on a regular drivers license. however, this configuration is becoming more common www.prevosttrader.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2003-Prevost-Marathon-H3-45-1-586x236.jpgalso can be done on a regular drivers license, in most states. (some states do have an upper weight limit - around 10 tons GVWR or so. Oregon specifies that to drive a fire engine (in the line of duty) you must have in house certification from the fire department.
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Post by c64 on Jul 24, 2014 12:31:14 GMT
Its in the blood by now I suppose, working out technical things like that is just how I was bought up?... If it has wheels, I bet I could work it out... just give me a while to play with it so I get familiar with the controls and away I will go. Well...Except super-fast hyper cars and Formula one. Same here. I've been quizzed often after claiming that I have seemed to have driven every "vehicle with wheels but no wings" category there is. Nobody had come up with something I didn't had the opportunity to work with or just try it out. Of course they ask for F1 cars and the like, but those have "wings" Now there is an Idea.So you think you can drive?... take 20 "I could drive anything" boastful people and give them a model "T" ford, see if they can work out the gear change, without instructions..... The Ford model "T" is a bad example. It comes with a manual explaining everything. When a friend made all driver's license classes there are for his job as vehicle safety expert because in his job he has to drive everything he has to check, I had trained him how to handle trailers and had helped him with his theoretical exams. (I did a test online exam just for fun and had passed with a very good score). When he had his final practical exam and returned with his "license for everything", I gave him a little present, the manual for a Ford "T". Just because he is supposed to be able to drive anything. Half a year later, a customer had shown up with a model "T" and was amazed that my friend was able to start it and drive it into the shop after just walking around and probing the controls briefly. A model "T" is highly unusual over here!
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 24, 2014 13:22:29 GMT
There are people who buy a small size tractor to pull their caravan. and they can do that on a regular drivers license. however, this configuration is becoming more common www.prevosttrader.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2003-Prevost-Marathon-H3-45-1-586x236.jpgalso can be done on a regular drivers license, in most states. (some states do have an upper weight limit - around 10 tons GVWR or so. Oregon specifies that to drive a fire engine (in the line of duty) you must have in house certification from the fire department. Wow... And I thought it was stupid that truck drivers in Europe need special licenses and have to adhere to strict regulations when it comes to driving time and resting time, yet any idiot with a license for a regular car (under 3,500 kg) can come home from a 12 hour work day, hitch his caravan to his car and set off for Italy without sleeping first and without special training to drive with the caravan. That causes a lot of accidents all across Europe every summer, yet you're telling me that any idiot with a licence in the US can get behind the wheel of THAT?! That's just asking for trouble... In Denmark we have 5 basic licenses (not counting motorcycles) B: Regular car up to a weight of 3,500 kg, fully loaded, including trailer as long as it doesn't go over that weight limit. BE: Regular car with a trailer, but up to 7,000 kg C: Truck above 7,000 kg without a trailer D: Bus for more than 10 people CE or DE: Truck with trailer/bus with trailer When you train for your basic B license, you're told that you can hitch a trailer to your car without any further training (provided it's under the weight limit), but that the speed limits change when you do so. The standard motorway/freeway speed in Denmark is 130 kph (80 mph). For trucks, busses and cars with trailers it's reduced to 80 kph (50 mph). This is something that EVERYONE learns when obtaining their first (B) driver's license, yet you still see so many dunces doing 130 on the freeway with a trailer behind them. An empty trailer... With a tarp construction... In heavy side winds... Like this one: You can take a wild guess how often traffic comes to a dead stop because one of these have toppled over...
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 13:50:00 GMT
we end up with traffic jams wherever people need to make their trailer go backwards.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 24, 2014 13:59:41 GMT
And that is the kind of problem caused by the 'I'm legally allowed to drive this therefore will be able to do so without trouble' aspect of the idea that I was thinking of. If it makes one person in the US stop and think twice before trying to get behind the wheel of something like that....
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 14:45:39 GMT
And that is the kind of problem caused by the 'I'm legally allowed to drive this therefore will be able to do so without trouble' aspect of the idea that I was thinking of. If it makes one person in the US stop and think twice before trying to get behind the wheel of something like that.... now you're just living in a fantasy world.
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Post by c64 on Jul 24, 2014 15:23:43 GMT
In Denmark we have 5 basic licenses (not counting motorcycles) B: Regular car up to a weight of 3,500 kg, fully loaded, including trailer as long as it doesn't go over that weight limit. BE: Regular car with a trailer, but up to 7,000 kg C: Truck above 7,000 kg without a trailer D: Bus for more than 10 people CE or DE: Truck with trailer/bus with trailer When you train for your basic B license, you're told that you can hitch a trailer to your car without any further training (provided it's under the weight limit), but that the speed limits change when you do so. Those are the "new" standardized EU licenses. Actually "B" is for cars (vehicles) up to 2.8 tons. You may attach a small trailer to get to your total of 3.5 tons. The difference happens to be the maximum trailer weight without brakes. So with your "plain B" you may drive all common in trade non-braked trailers and light braked trailers. But you have to be careful since a common medium sized car may only tow 500kg non-braked or less. The East German made Trabant has a trailer hook option and there was a suitable trailer available, 300kg max (including its own weight). BE is cars with trailers. The car is still 2.8 tons maximum but you may pull heavy trailers. The total weight of your car plus trailer is 7 tons. This is the maximum for "ordinary" vehicles anyway. I happen to own an "unlimited" license but never used it with a B class vehicle. C1 is what's known as the "small truck" license for vehicles up to 7.5 tons. Actually 7.4999999999999999999999999 tons is the maximum. This is the so called "7.4 ton class" C1E is "small truck with trailer", 12 tons in total (or unlimited if you had gotten a special license like me before they had spoiled the fun in 1995) C is "trucks for adults", 7.5 tons and more. CE is obviously "big rigs" D is anything with more than 9 seats. Since some EU countries didn't make a difference in the amount of seats, most EU citizens had got D1 for free when converting to the new system which is a C1 class vehicle but with more than 9 seats. Special problem in Germany, I can't transport more than 8 strangers, the rest has to be close relatives.
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Post by c64 on Jul 24, 2014 15:30:08 GMT
The weight limit of the trailer using the common "Plain B" license makes sense. A 500kg trailer is relative easy to turn around by hand so you don't really need to back up your vehicle with trailer.
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 15:30:40 GMT
in the old days, Oregon had two licenses: a Driver's license and a Chauffeur's license. the difference was a person with a Chauffeur's license could be paid to drive. (again, being paid to do work and given a company vehicle to get to work did not count as being paid to drive)in years past, they amended the chauffeur's license to a letter code rating saying WHAT they could be paid to drive - and I think each rating is separate from the others. as in you can get a license to drive a vehicle with space for 10, which will not allow you to drive an 18 wheeler - or you can get a license to drive an 18 wheeler - but not a vehicle with space for 10. if you want to do both, you have to get both.
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 15:32:15 GMT
The weight limit of the trailer using the common "Plain B" license makes sense. A 500kg trailer is relative easy to turn around by hand so you don't really need to back up your vehicle with trailer. It makes more sense when you consider that an overweight trailer is much easier to get yourself in trouble with.
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 15:43:13 GMT
There are people who buy a small size tractor to pull their caravan. and they can do that on a regular drivers license. Wow... And I thought it was stupid that truck drivers in Europe need special licenses and have to adhere to strict regulations when it comes to driving time and resting time, yet any idiot with a license for a regular car (under 3,500 kg) can come home from a 12 hour work day, hitch his caravan to his car and set off for Italy without sleeping first and without special training to drive with the caravan. That causes a lot of accidents all across Europe every summer, yet you're telling me that any idiot with a licence in the US can get behind the wheel of THAT?! That's just asking for trouble... I would rather see someone driving that than this: www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/medium/RV1_small.jpg(sorry, if absolutely refuses to display this one - edit: you are probably going to have to copy and paste the address. I have no idea why) or this the first is obvious - the second is what we call a half-ton pickup - payload rating of 800-1000 pounds. designed for people who want to drive a pickup but should be driving a sedan (saloon)
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Post by c64 on Jul 24, 2014 15:45:45 GMT
The weight limit of the trailer using the common "Plain B" license makes sense. A 500kg trailer is relative easy to turn around by hand so you don't really need to back up your vehicle with trailer. It makes more sense when you consider that an overweight trailer is much easier to get yourself in trouble with. Not so long ago I followed a car with a trailer where the wheels were like this: .----. | | '----' /----\
When I was close enough, I saw that the trailer was filled with wet sand to the brim. The trailer had no brakes so the legal limit was 750kg (trailer + payload), the car had looked like 500kg (non-braked) and I am very sure that the trailer was meant for 300kg in payload at maximum. But I estimate there were at least ½ m³ wet sand on it, more like 1m³! 1m³ wet sand or gravel is rated 2000kg according to my weight table for crane operators.
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Post by the light works on Jul 24, 2014 16:01:01 GMT
It makes more sense when you consider that an overweight trailer is much easier to get yourself in trouble with. Not so long ago I followed a car with a trailer where the wheels were like this: .----. | | '----' /----\
When I was close enough, I saw that the trailer was filled with wet sand to the brim. The trailer had no brakes so the legal limit was 750kg (trailer + payload), the car had looked like 500kg (non-braked) and I am very sure that the trailer was meant for 300kg in payload at maximum. But I estimate there were at least ½ m³ wet sand on it, more like 1m³! 1m³ wet sand or gravel is rated 2000kg according to my weight table for crane operators. the times I have purchased gravel, the conversation has gone something to the effect of "I need 2 yards of gravel, and yes the trailer is rated for it." (it was actually rated for 2.5 yards)
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Post by c64 on Jul 24, 2014 18:11:08 GMT
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 25, 2014 7:29:36 GMT
Just a note.... the difference between C and C+E, C is solid, C+E it Bends in the middle. E is Trailer, in all classes. If it bends, its "Big rigs", if its one solid unit, its C, any solid body vehicle of any weight (Up to legal limit) is classes as class C, same test. Passing class C upgraded my lower class single deck Bus licence to full double-deck D.
This was bought in to deal with the confusion of Wagon and Drag. Its a weight thing, and a size thing, a solid body truck could, before clarification, haul more cargo than an articulated, if it just hitched up a trailer. on a lower class of licence. Thats safe isnt it?.... The trailer in some cases was actually bigger than the truck towing it?... and both together, in cargo space, were more than a 60ft trailer could handle. Now you must have the C+E licence to drive anything that bends, either in the middle or at the back.
New on the roads, Edie Stobart are trialling a 80ft trailer... No extra weight, just more space, if its low weight (Toilet rolls etc) you can get half-dozen extra pallets on the thing up to 44 tons, less wagons on the road. Must be good news. If it words, other companies will be invited to send a few drivers to experience oversize... Some people are looking at me... Dunno why, I have been doing oversize for may years, you just need more space to turn.
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Post by c64 on Jul 25, 2014 11:06:53 GMT
Just a note.... the difference between C and C+E, C is solid, C+E it Bends in the middle. E is Trailer, in all classes. If it bends, its "Big rigs", if its one solid unit, its C, any solid body vehicle of any weight (Up to legal limit) is classes as class C, same test. Passing class C upgraded my lower class single deck Bus licence to full double-deck D. This was bought in to deal with the confusion of Wagon and Drag. Its a weight thing, and a size thing, a solid body truck could, before clarification, haul more cargo than an articulated, if it just hitched up a trailer. on a lower class of licence. Thats safe isnt it?.... The trailer in some cases was actually bigger than the truck towing it?... and both together, in cargo space, were more than a 60ft trailer could handle. Now you must have the C+E licence to drive anything that bends, either in the middle or at the back. New on the roads, Edie Stobart are trialling a 80ft trailer... No extra weight, just more space, if its low weight (Toilet rolls etc) you can get half-dozen extra pallets on the thing up to 44 tons, less wagons on the road. Must be good news. If it words, other companies will be invited to send a few drivers to experience oversize... Some people are looking at me... Dunno why, I have been doing oversize for may years, you just need more space to turn. The EU drivers license definition isn't about "if it bends". You have your vehicle and then there is the trailer, no matter if it has axles on both ends or just rests on the towing vehicle. C1E entitles you to drive "small rigs" and those bend, too. C1 allows you to drive a vehicle in the so called 7.4 ton class and the "E" allows you to pull a trailer of any kind so you can drive a vehicle with a "saddle" where you attach a semitrailer onto. What the EU license in general doesn't anticipate is the number of axles. On the mainland (at least France, Italy, Netherlands, Austria and Germany), they include a restriction and limit the amount of axles to "3". Here is a picture of a license which has the 3-axles limit and the "unlimited weight" exemption: www.600ccm.info/pages/x_fish/images/130604_02.jpgThe 79(C1E>12000kg,L≤3) is the key here. This means "The owner of this license isn't really entitled for CE but as long as there are not more than 3 axles (L≤3), the CE vehicle is considered as C1E even if it's total weight is more than 12 tons" The difference between C1E and CE is mainly the total weight and the weight of the towing vehicle, not "if it bends". If you have more than 12 tons, your rig is CE if it "bends" or not. Of course almost all C1E vehicles "bend" due to the common 3 axle restriction. If the trailer has it's wheel in the middle, it can't handle much payload so you need a semitrailer with its wheel at the rear end to handle a reasonable payload. It's true that a solid body truck and a 2/3 axle trailer could handle more payload than a semi. The problem is, that this configuration isn't economic any more. This was the standard until the 1980s, but now they use semis. With a semi, the driver doesn't has to wait for loading, just picking up or dropping off the trailer and be on the road while they load. Also the common international cargo container is too long to have two of them on a solid body and a trailer, you need to order an exemption for oversize in half of the EU countries and you need to order this 2..6 weeks in advance. But you can put two onto a long semitrailer, this just barely fits for all EU countries: The absolute maximum in payload space allowed in most EU countries can be achieved by using 2 trailers, but again, a common solid body truck makes the vehicle too long for most EU countries. That's what those "midget solid bodies" are for: They are in fact semi trailer tractors converted for full trailers only and some cargo space on top of the "saddle" where a semitrailer would attach. They are then used to pull two trailers at once or a very long semitrailer on a dolly. Almost every bigger Circus uses them. They don't care how long it takes to load or unload their stuff, they need to haul everything in one tour and want as few vehicles as possible because they don't want to hire extra drivers.
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Post by c64 on Jul 25, 2014 11:16:45 GMT
When you see one of those "midget C" tractors, you'll except that there will be clowns coming out. Considering that most of those belong to a circus, chances are high that at least one clown is inside.
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