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Post by silverdragon on Feb 18, 2015 10:30:02 GMT
I am now watching the episode, thanks to u-tube.... So far, I am with Jamie on the difficulty thing, it argues against all his driving teachings, so he has the same as me for loosing control. So either we are Both control freaks ([confirmed]) or its actually not that easy.... On the (implied on other threads here) result that Drifting just messes up the tyres, well, I already confirmed that one didnt I?... 18 tyres they went through. I have spent a whole weekend on just one set racing.... On the result for single corner 90degree and 180 degree times that it didnt significantly improve times, I still would like to know how highly trained drivers would compare?... but as basic average good road drivers, Jamie and Adam have definitely confirmed [BUSTED] that just anyone could drift the corner with speed. On the street racer set course times, No surprises there. Except Conrad.... Well, to be fair, it wasnt his own "drift" car was it?... When he did use his own car, what time did he post?.. I didnt see any time on the screen (It may not have shown on the u-t00b clip..) My posts here seam to argue with themselves?... I am letting that stand, I could go back and edit my posts, but, I think it shows how my own thought development of this has changed. And again, the show shows just how Duck Tape has millions of uses?... Parallel parking, Adam "I kept seeing the cars, and I was not steering towards them, its like a natural survival mechanism, really you dont want to steer into cars" Yep, 100%, you avoid at all costs hitting another vehicle.... Thats hard to break. On Conrad, a highly trained driver, managing it. HIGHLY trained..... I vote plausible is not a true answer, it cant be done by "Just anyone", and I include myself there. Not without extensive practise.... and perhaps a few bumps. Edit, this is the clip I just watched, I think its region free?.... Its not the best quality and not as wide screen as it should be...
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Post by OziRiS on Feb 18, 2015 10:43:23 GMT
On Conrad, a highly trained driver, managing it. HIGHLY trained..... I vote plausible is not a true answer, it cant be done by "Just anyone", and I include myself there. Not without extensive practise.... and perhaps a few bumps. Which is why it was called plausible instead of confirmed. It can be done, but only if you're highly trained to do so.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 18, 2015 10:56:45 GMT
So a Do not try this at home, or in fact anywhere else tag is highly appropriate.
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Post by the light works on Feb 18, 2015 14:51:30 GMT
[edit... because of later post, the meaning of this post has changed, and this is to be read as questions on perhaps a redo of the myth, using perhaps more professional drivers. As in, could a professional rally driver do a tarmac section using rally techniques (avoid drift as much as possible) compared to a prof. Drifter....]I was not surprised by the results. I definitely did not think drifting would get from start to finish faster than standard cornering. If anything, I ezxpected drifting to take longer due to loss/change in momentum during the drift; in addition, you have centrifugal force & rotational inertia acting against you, trying to pull you to the outside of the corner. I don't think this episode was quite up to MB standards. It had its interesting moments, but perhaps this was not a concept worthy of a dedicated episode. I have not seen the episode yet, but, I have questions. If the drifter finished the course first,.... 1) who were they racing?... If the answer was someone like me, with a little race track experience but non competitive, then, I say bogus result. If the answer was a race driver, I say plausible. If the answer was "The Stig", some say he sleeps upside down like a bat and has no idea what an Oyster card is for. He also could perhaps set a lap record you would have very little chance of beating.... either way.... 2) what surface?... if the answer is loose gravel, then yes, Rally style drift is often needed to corner on loose surfaces. If Tarmac, what were they racing?.. if "black snot" race prep tyres on proper car with added downforce, on a race track surface, I say result plausible. If the same car as the drifter, and exactly the same car, I say Busted, as the cars used by drifters, to pinch a phrase from TLW, those cars "Hide" from grip.... they are encouraged to NOT have downforce to aid loose adhesion?... Different horses for different courses. A proper race car on the right track will always beat a drifter. 3) what type of course was it?.. There are some layouts where a drifter will win. If the course was biased towards drift..... to answer your questions: Jamie (grip) vs, Adam(drift) followed by their version of the stig (drift) - time trials on a combination surface track, with an ordinary car. - the placing was: Jamie, Adam, Stig.
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Post by the light works on Feb 18, 2015 15:00:35 GMT
I usedta could drift - but I usedta drove a rig that drifted well. never did a true time trial, though - but I have the impression I was able to turn in a time on snow that was pretty close to my average bare pavement time. (I couldn't drift on pavement due to lack of horsepower and abundance of grip)
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Post by Antigone68104 on Feb 18, 2015 16:04:37 GMT
On the street racer set course times, No surprises there. Except Conrad.... Well, to be fair, it wasnt his own "drift" car was it?... When he did use his own car, what time did he post?.. I didnt see any time on the screen (It may not have shown on the u-t00b clip..) They didn't give a time for his own car. Personally, I thought that part was a "just for fun". I assume Conrad did some practice runs in the test car, I certainly would have. And he was able to drift-park an unmodified limo, the test car was actually modified for drift racing.
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Post by the light works on Feb 18, 2015 16:16:29 GMT
On the street racer set course times, No surprises there. Except Conrad.... Well, to be fair, it wasnt his own "drift" car was it?... When he did use his own car, what time did he post?.. I didnt see any time on the screen (It may not have shown on the u-t00b clip..) They didn't give a time for his own car. Personally, I thought that part was a "just for fun". I assume Conrad did some practice runs in the test car, I certainly would have. And he was able to drift-park an unmodified limo, the test car was actually modified for drift racing. because the question was not whether a race car can outperform a regular car...
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 18, 2015 16:48:02 GMT
If you are going to compare speed with drifting vs 'normal' driving you need identical vehicles. Or better yet use the exact same vehicle since its top speed etc is, well, the same.
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Post by the light works on Feb 18, 2015 17:04:23 GMT
If you are going to compare speed with drifting vs 'normal' driving you need identical vehicles. Or better yet use the exact same vehicle since its top speed etc is, well, the same. I could see racing racecar vs racecar with a drift car vs a road race car. that would allow comparing the best you could get with either style of driving, and eliminate the argument that the test car was biased in one direction or the other. however, it is probably also outside the budget.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 19, 2015 8:49:05 GMT
If you are going to compare speed with drifting vs 'normal' driving you need identical vehicles. Or better yet use the exact same vehicle since its top speed etc is, well, the same. This is the problem... The drift race, well, its brought out by "Ricers", Japanese (Or Chinese copies) of small euro-box type light but powerful saloons that are modified to one inch of not being a truck, with the sole intention of racing. They drift because they believe its faster.... Max speed is not as important as cornering speed. Need for Speed Tokyo Drift "sort of" explains it?... The engines are swapped out and modified to as much as you can get that can pull a house down but still fit under the bonnet, wheels and suspension are "the best" for what they do, tyres are swapped more often that they buy a full tank of gas, and acceleration times are MucH more important than top speed. Having a pole fitted, WRC style, such as the one Conrad had instead of a conventional handbrake, is very important, as it allows you to "feel" the brakes. This is why I am asking, if you did all you could to a Ricer and then picked a small similar car favoured by BTTC touring car racing or similar, or even the usual suspects in Need for Speed films, and put them head to head round a designated race track, or "street circuit" with normal street furniture (I suggest that abandoned military housing estate they used..?..) who would do the A->B the fastest.... Needless to say any euro-box highly modified with a high power to weight ratio will smack down any of your usual USA "Yank-Tanks" and "Camero" suspects, the 0-60 times whilst cornering at speed are enough to show small cars go round tight corners better. But if its a longer straights, the raw noisy V8 may just drag race past the smaller euro style engine. I am quite happy that with an identical road going vehicle un-modified (Except the duck tape) vehicle will not drift faster than conventional racing. But.... I got to know, when taken to its logical max, as a street racer, given the two similar but different technique camps, who would win, conventional modders or Drifter modders. One thing I do not know, do Drifters do as much with their brakes as Touring car racers?... Drifters dont need as much brakes do they?.. adding heavy double-size discs?... extra weight they dont need?... In Conclusion, the episode answers the main question, on a "normal" car, Drifting is not noticeably faster. But I think they missed a trick taking it to the max...........
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 19, 2015 8:52:50 GMT
If you are going to compare speed with drifting vs 'normal' driving you need identical vehicles. Or better yet use the exact same vehicle since its top speed etc is, well, the same. I could see racing racecar vs racecar with a drift car vs a road race car. that would allow comparing the best you could get with either style of driving, and eliminate the argument that the test car was biased in one direction or the other. however, it is probably also outside the budget. Colin bought his own car.... Get a touring car racer to turn up and do a bit for TV?... On one of the most popular shows ON the TV?... Stand back whilst they que up to snap you bloody wrist off on the offer of showing off, and Sponsorship deals in car stickers will want that kind of coverage anyway. Budget be blowed, that kind of advertising comes expensive, and they would quite happily PAY to turn up?... ['nuf-said?]
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 19, 2015 12:01:56 GMT
I seem to recall that certain types/sizes of car in Japan are/were* legally limited to a fairly low top speed**.
The Japanese naturally followed the law, keeping the top speed within legal limits but increasing acceleration to the point that street racers from elsewhere in the world looked like they were standing still. I think this applied to smaller types of cars, which were ideal for travel in the major cities - which were also locations where there wasn't usually large areas for street racing. As in even if you had a car capable of doing 200mph you'd never have the room to get close to that speed...unless you intended to run into a building at 150mph.
(*My information may be out of date)
(**As in a speed limiter in the engine, not speed limits on roads)
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Post by the light works on Feb 19, 2015 14:51:05 GMT
If you are going to compare speed with drifting vs 'normal' driving you need identical vehicles. Or better yet use the exact same vehicle since its top speed etc is, well, the same. This is the problem... The drift race, well, its brought out by "Ricers", Japanese (Or Chinese copies) of small euro-box type light but powerful saloons that are modified to one inch of not being a truck, with the sole intention of racing. They drift because they believe its faster.... Max speed is not as important as cornering speed. Need for Speed Tokyo Drift "sort of" explains it?... The engines are swapped out and modified to as much as you can get that can pull a house down but still fit under the bonnet, wheels and suspension are "the best" for what they do, tyres are swapped more often that they buy a full tank of gas, and acceleration times are MucH more important than top speed. Having a pole fitted, WRC style, such as the one Conrad had instead of a conventional handbrake, is very important, as it allows you to "feel" the brakes. This is why I am asking, if you did all you could to a Ricer and then picked a small similar car favoured by BTTC touring car racing or similar, or even the usual suspects in Need for Speed films, and put them head to head round a designated race track, or "street circuit" with normal street furniture (I suggest that abandoned military housing estate they used..?..) who would do the A->B the fastest.... Needless to say any euro-box highly modified with a high power to weight ratio will smack down any of your usual USA "Yank-Tanks" and "Camero" suspects, the 0-60 times whilst cornering at speed are enough to show small cars go round tight corners better. But if its a longer straights, the raw noisy V8 may just drag race past the smaller euro style engine. I am quite happy that with an identical road going vehicle un-modified (Except the duck tape) vehicle will not drift faster than conventional racing. But.... I got to know, when taken to its logical max, as a street racer, given the two similar but different technique camps, who would win, conventional modders or Drifter modders. One thing I do not know, do Drifters do as much with their brakes as Touring car racers?... Drifters dont need as much brakes do they?.. adding heavy double-size discs?... extra weight they dont need?... In Conclusion, the episode answers the main question, on a "normal" car, Drifting is not noticeably faster. But I think they missed a trick taking it to the max........... RICEr: Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancement. keep in mind, their pro was driving a car based on a Camaro.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 20, 2015 7:55:40 GMT
Ricer, in UK, its all about the fact it comes from a country rich in Rice, in the same way we say Yank-Tank, or euro-box. But yes, they are modified.
Limited top speeds, yes, thats why they swap out the engine. Most europe cars have a voluntary top speed limit of 155mph, the Autobahn Stormers were the first to bring that in, it has spread. It doesnt stop them swapping out parts. If you watch any BTCC racing, you get the same basic car but underneath, but it is nothing like its road going 2nd cousin, as it has had almost everything 'improved'...
I have seen modified versions of my own basic toyota lump doing 200+. Not that hard if you swap out the crank do a re-bore and chuck a little turbo at it. (ETC)
My own car is capable of around 130, its me that isnt capable of finding out what there is above the 120 mark.... Bearing in mind, when I raced, what I have now would have stormed the field?.. the VW Golf GTi was so young it wasnt even Mk1, and they were still racing Cortina's.
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Post by the light works on Feb 20, 2015 16:14:31 GMT
Ricer, in UK, its all about the fact it comes from a country rich in Rice, in the same way we say Yank-Tank, or euro-box. But yes, they are modified. Limited top speeds, yes, thats why they swap out the engine. Most europe cars have a voluntary top speed limit of 155mph, the Autobahn Stormers were the first to bring that in, it has spread. It doesnt stop them swapping out parts. If you watch any BTCC racing, you get the same basic car but underneath, but it is nothing like its road going 2nd cousin, as it has had almost everything 'improved'... I have seen modified versions of my own basic toyota lump doing 200+. Not that hard if you swap out the crank do a re-bore and chuck a little turbo at it. (ETC) My own car is capable of around 130, its me that isnt capable of finding out what there is above the 120 mark.... Bearing in mind, when I raced, what I have now would have stormed the field?.. the VW Golf GTi was so young it wasnt even Mk1, and they were still racing Cortina's. In our current parlance, a ricer is a car that has only got cosmetic stuff, whether it is a rice burner or not. they are the ones with the "turbo" muffler (AKA fart muffler), and the springs cut to lower it, and stickers from performance part manufacturers all over it, that sounds like a badly tuned lawnmower, and bounces on every bump. here, top speeds are largely dependent on the era the car was built in. cars of the 60s generally ran out of revs at around 120-130. cars built in the 70s did well to be able to unleash enough ponies to get to 80. (except performance cars) after carmakers caught wise to the relationship between weight and fuel economy and weights began to creep down to match the "efficient" engines of the 70s, top speeds began to creep back up. the average car still doesn't usually get too far past a hundred, though.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 21, 2015 11:45:18 GMT
That would be shameful on UK roads.... OK.. you Modern eco-box, the ones who have stolen the term euro-box and barstewardized it to economy, the three cylinder small wheel city car that should never ever be allowed on Motorways, perhaps those who brag about over 80 to a gallon but have never actually managed anything like that, stand back, we aint talking about you, I will put you in room 101 if you dont shut up?... I will put them there anyway, they annoy me. Most average family sized cars on UK road can manage the magic ton.... Even the humble Original Mini with the 1100 cc or above could easily get there. The ford Transit van could, even in its first appearance. Getting 110 is considered a must, the ability to get 120 is a requisite of any family car that wants 5-up-and-luggage ability for holidays, 130 is considered "Average", above is considered impressive to serious petrol head. Not that we ever do anything like that?... [looks around nonchalantly whistling ( )a tune in case the fuzz are watching....] Its just we could if we needed to?.. And we have some serious hills we need to go up, so extra power is a requisite. One-in-ten is a mild bump.(10%) hardly a hill at all, compared to some things we have. We dont even sign anything under 12% (One-in-12)really?...
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 21, 2015 12:42:50 GMT
Top speed for factory spec is 97mph, some owners have claimed speeds up to 112 mph but not without modifications. Mini's are about as aerodynamic as a brick, and were never designed for high speeds. They were designed for agility and rapid acceleration, in the latter they can make many newer and technically more powerful cars look like they are standing still going from 0-30mph(ish).
A more realistic top speed seems to be 70-90 mph with 80mph being the point at which the sane decide not to do that again, as the classic Mini is terrifying at 70mph and above. Both due to its habit of being dragged sideways if anything larger than it passes it at speed and because the engine starts to make its objections known by threatening to catapult itself out of the engine compartment and into your lap.
And of course there is the not too minor point that if you crash in a mini at those kinds of speed you are dead.
Most classic Mini's however seem to have trouble managing anything faster than 70mph unless the engine has been modded, regardless of how old the car is. (Its also not a good idea to try to hit such speeds even if the engine is powerful enough as the brakes were also not intended for such speeds...or the suspension for that matter)
In case you were wondering I'm speaking from personal experience here. Nothing is quite as scary as going from the inner to middle lane of a motorway when a truck passes you.
Newer Mini's seem to have a top speed in the 114-120mph range, probably due to better aerodynamics (that is, they actually have some). Most UK cars have top speeds of around 120-150mph off the lot, with 125mph being the average.
None of which really has much to do with Drifting.
As I noted, Drifting seems to have been developed for races in heavily build up areas where there isn't a great deal of room to allow for long tracks and hence high speeds. The classic example is in the film Tokyo Drift, where most of the races take place in multilevel car parks.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 21, 2015 13:53:15 GMT
Top speed for factory spec is 97mph, some owners have claimed speeds up to 112 mph but not without modifications. [Cut for brevity] None of which really has much to do with Drifting. As I noted, Drifting seems to have been developed for races in heavily build up areas where there isn't a great deal of room to allow for long tracks and hence high speeds. The classic example is in the film Tokyo Drift, where most of the races take place in multilevel car parks. This was all about the real reason for racing before the drift became alternative option... 97 is as close as 100 as only pedantics can be bothered to argue isnt it?... Thats what my Mini started at, but with a few easily available mods, it was better, such as K&N filter and twin-carbs, but it was then swapped out for the 1275 "GT" engine as one was available from another scrapped car... the carbs and filter were transplanted as well. Drifting in a mini is easy. Just look at the handbrake and the back wheels are away with the faeries?.. I have done sideways at 30 mph on a roundabout with ease.... but it was wet, and again, a slight nudge of the handbrake bough them back. Thats the beauty of a FRONT wheel drive, the back end only has wheels to stop the floor dragging on the road. [edit... the mini is a challenging car to drive "With urgency", you certainly know you are driving, none of this computer control modern crud, its just you, an engine and the wheels.... thats what makes it so fun...]But even in tight spaces, a smaller car with tighter turning circle is way way ahead of any drift car, as it has the ability to slow, turn and grunt forwards, using the acceleration ability of the engine. Sliding the corner has only the effect of adding possible collision damage, as it has been shown, and proved, confirmed by Adam and Jamie. What we didnt get is times from the Pro at their course, and times from a NON drift pro on that course. The comparison to each other and then the best that Adam and Jamie can do would be enlightening.... Especially Jamie... I have begun to wonder just exactly what he is capable of, 'cos I am beginning to think there is much we dont know, and I suspect he has done a few laps on a race course that he isnt letting on about?... (He does know his bikes...)(He also knows his heavy plant and perhaps Heavy Goods (CDL?) work?..) I am thinking he is someone I would enjoy sharing a race weekend with, as I think I could trust him not to go all demolition derby on a track.
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Post by the light works on Feb 21, 2015 14:51:12 GMT
the pickup I would go drift about the backroads in would go 100 MPH at BOT on a flat, level road. it would also cruise at 85 MPH on anything but a significant upgrade. keep in mind that at the time I had it, that was $150.00 over the speed limit.
that may be the key difference. it was since I learned to drive that the feds admitted that cars didn't go on dinosaur killing rampages at speeds over 55 MPH; and since I learned to drive reasonably close to the speed limit that the feds admitted that exceeding 65 MPH was not a one-way ticket to heck. it was last year that I first saw a speed limit sign set at 80 MPH.
so really, speeds in excess of 100 MPH are really only a by-product of making your American family car able to cruise at freeway speed in a reasonably efficient manner. certainly you can soup them up, and certainly some cars go faster off-the-shelf. keep in mind that to be eligible to race in NASCAR, a car used to have to be available for purchase by the general public. however, drifting used to only be used in bad surface racing, such as oval dirt tracks.
(pardon this being a promotion - it was the best short video I could find that showed the cornering technique)
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