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Post by OziRiS on Sept 25, 2016 23:48:57 GMT
The police have a duty to keep the public safe. If multiple driving instructors use the same area to drive around with students who are so inexperienced that they pose a risk to public safety, the police should be duty bound to do something about that.
They may not be able to issue a general ban, but they should at least be able to hold each individual instructor responsible for the hazards they're creating. Yes, the student has a right to learn in a real life environment and the instructor has a right to provide them with that opportunity, but neither has a right to endanger others in the process.
There's a reason why most parents teach their kids to ride their bikes on roads with little to no traffic and gradually put them in situations that challenge them more and more as they improve. If you're so much of an expert in driving and road safety that you've been allowed to work as a driving instructor, shouldn't you at least possess and exhibit the same amount of common sense as the average parent?
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Post by the light works on Sept 26, 2016 2:05:08 GMT
yes, there is a point at which learner drivers have to drive with traffic - but if the schools are making a significant nuisance of themselves by consistently concentrating the students in one area, that area has a valid complaint. Put if all the schools agree joint actions then they are working as a cartel, and that is against the law. Driving schools in the UK may be a large agency like the abritish School of Motoring, or one man bands each doing their own thing there is no way the police could contact each and try to make them stop entering one area, without good cause otherwise they would be acting illegally themselves. The only way to deal with this would be through a Counil bye law but ha would probably be Challenged in the courts. the simple expedient would be to have police hanging about the problem area for a while. getting citations should be a part of learning to drive, shouldn't it?
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Post by mrfatso on Sept 26, 2016 4:42:44 GMT
The police have a duty to keep the public safe. If multiple driving instructors use the same area to drive around with students who are so inexperienced that they pose a risk to public safety, the police should be duty bound to do something about that. They may not be able to issue a general ban, but they should at least be able to hold each individual instructor responsible for the hazards they're creating. Yes, the student has a right to learn in a real life environment and the instructor has a right to provide them with that opportunity, but neither has a right to endanger others in the process. There's a reason why most parents teach their kids to ride their bikes on roads with little to no traffic and gradually put them in situations that challenge them more and more as they improve. If you're so much of an expert in driving and road safety that you've been allowed to work as a driving instructor, shouldn't you at least possess and exhibit the same amount of common sense as the average parent? The counter argument to that s that unless learner drivers have practise in driving in the same conditions that they will,be driving under everyday then their education is worthless, a person who could drive perfectly well without the pressure of other road users around them might crack when a HGV is sitting besides them at a roundabout blocking their view. At least with an instructor they have a dual control,vehicle that can be safer than a normal car.
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Post by mrfatso on Sept 26, 2016 4:44:51 GMT
Put if all the schools agree joint actions then they are working as a cartel, and that is against the law. Driving schools in the UK may be a large agency like the abritish School of Motoring, or one man bands each doing their own thing there is no way the police could contact each and try to make them stop entering one area, without good cause otherwise they would be acting illegally themselves. The only way to deal with this would be through a Counil bye law but ha would probably be Challenged in the courts. the simple expedient would be to have police hanging about the problem area for a while. getting citations should be a part of learning to drive, shouldn't it? In my experience of local learners most of what they do is annoying but not actually a road traffic offence,
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 26, 2016 8:43:59 GMT
The law states that Driving school cars should be easily identifiable from a distance, to aid recognition of them, and that all other road users should treat them with contempt extra care, as "We all had to learn sometime....?"
Was I ever that bad?.
Again, I grew up in farming country, and was driving an Articulated vehicle around the fields during harvest time collecting trailers by the time I was able to reach the pedals.
Not everyone has that experience.
But I will be blowed if I can remember back in the days when I learnt if any of my "peers" of that time were "That bad" by the time they hit the roads?...
Not forgetting that any vehicle capable of doing more than 70mph was considered extremely powerful back then... But it was expected that you WOULD get to "around" the posted speed limit as soon as possible when driving under instruction. thats a +/- 5mph sort of "around" the posted limit, they were not all that anally retentive about "You may not in any circumstance exceed the posted limit" back then... it happened, slow down, and that was all. I dont think it was even an instant fail on the exam as long as it wasnt dangerously over and you slowed down as soon as you noticed?.. in fact, it was positively encouraged to use a "little extra" to make a safe overtake to negate the amount of time spent on the wrong side of the road?..
I do remember that the basic "Wobble test" raw greenhorn new to the road learners used to be taken to a quiet industrial estate on a Sunday morning to get the first up-to 20mph basic training.
The test today is a LOT harder. You are expected to show that you have the experience to know how to operate the machinery... Not just press the pedal and go, but where to put Oil Water Brake fluid, how to check for oil and fluid levels, how to check tyres and all the other operating knowledge your supposed to know and not just expect "daddy" to do for you.
But the roads are a lot harder, and so is "The competition". I would expect today that there should be no "Short cuts", and getting in the way of other road users should be lesson number one of the things you shouldnt do.
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 26, 2016 12:05:38 GMT
The police have a duty to keep the public safe. If multiple driving instructors use the same area to drive around with students who are so inexperienced that they pose a risk to public safety, the police should be duty bound to do something about that. They may not be able to issue a general ban, but they should at least be able to hold each individual instructor responsible for the hazards they're creating. Yes, the student has a right to learn in a real life environment and the instructor has a right to provide them with that opportunity, but neither has a right to endanger others in the process. There's a reason why most parents teach their kids to ride their bikes on roads with little to no traffic and gradually put them in situations that challenge them more and more as they improve. If you're so much of an expert in driving and road safety that you've been allowed to work as a driving instructor, shouldn't you at least possess and exhibit the same amount of common sense as the average parent? The counter argument to that s that unless learner drivers have practise in driving in the same conditions that they will,be driving under everyday then their education is worthless, a person who could drive perfectly well without the pressure of other road users around them might crack when a HGV is sitting besides them at a roundabout blocking their view. At least with an instructor they have a dual control,vehicle that can be safer than a normal car. I agree completely, but as I said with kids learning to ride a bike, you don't start them off on the busiest street you can find. As long as they're not practiced enough to be able to put out their hand to signal a turn without swerving all over the road or falling over, they're not ready for major traffic yet. Same goes for learner drivers. Until they're practiced and confident enough to drive at the speeds posted while still keeping an eye on everything else, you should keep them to roads with less traffic. In my opinion, it's a bad instructor who throws his students into situations where they're in way over their heads. All they'll learn from that is just how much they have yet to learn and possibly how to panic. A good instructor builds his students up, taking it one step at a time and letting them succeed at gradually more difficult things until they're at the level they need to be at. Some will be ready for major traffic by the third lesson and some won't be until the 8th. It's the instructor's job to know who's ready for what and to challenge each student enough that they learn, but not so much that they fail. Putting a student who's not yet confident enough to go faster than 20mph into a situation where they absolutely need to do 30 or more is setting that student up for failure.
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Post by the light works on Sept 26, 2016 14:04:05 GMT
the simple expedient would be to have police hanging about the problem area for a while. getting citations should be a part of learning to drive, shouldn't it? In my experience of local learners most of what they do is annoying but not actually a road traffic offence, oh, here in Oregon it is not legal to pull out in front of somebody such that they have to brake to avoid a collision, and it is also to drive in such a way that you are impeding the flow of traffic.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 27, 2016 9:30:24 GMT
In my experience of local learners most of what they do is annoying but not actually a road traffic offence, oh, here in Oregon it is not legal to pull out in front of somebody such that they have to brake to avoid a collision, and it is also to drive in such a way that you are impeding the flow of traffic. Its not legal here either, but you try telling some people who think they own the road that they cant do that?...
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 27, 2016 9:46:06 GMT
On the subject of teaching "kids" to drive. As in My kid. I think its wise to teach them the basic controls first. Preferably where there isnt any other traffic.... When they can drive only looking out the window and not having to look at the gear stick or pedals every time they need to change gear speed up or slow down, when they can drive with "Half an eye" on the speedo and other instruments, when they can be checking mirrors frequently as they should do, then its time to introduce them to "traffic"
I want to know my kid will have hit the brakes before he has time to think when he needs to?.. the "Muscle memory" that all of us get as passengers when something happens and we feel our own foot reaching for the pedal even though we aint driving?.
I think learning that before you panic in traffic, that is part of learning. It is almost a bloody stupid suggestion that I teach my own kids to drive. Reason one, I have "advanced" driving techniques that would get a fail on a "normal" driving test, I cant drive any other way, and indeed have conveniently forgotten all the bits that I do "wrong" on a "normal" driving test, because I never use them anyway?... Reason two, I aint got the patience. I am a terrible passenger unless you can forgive that I will almost be doing a running commentary on what I can see from my side of the vehicle, and the "hey watch this one he is about to do da stupid" warnings, not because I dont think you have seen them, just because in case you didnt?.. My ability to "predict" the stupid is from many many many many years experience, its that "sixth sense" thing, after years of seeing other people do the same, you kinda know whats coming next....
I am also slightly intolerant of "bad" drivers. I have told my kids once they pass the test, I will give them driving advice on how to survive the roads. Stuff they dont need or want to know "just yet", the advanced stuff of an advanced driver. Also how I have managed to do 80,000 miles on one set of brake disks that after inspection are "perfectly good" for another 70,000 or so before they need replacement, whilst other people have them changed [on the same vehicle] around 70,000 mile?.. same with the clutch, I will get double the average life outa mine, how?.. "Not using it"?.. or just being gentle on it.... ?..
These are things that maybe we all know now, after many years experience driving, but how do new drivers get to know all this?..
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 27, 2016 10:24:18 GMT
Over here, driving instructors have begun teaching new students "eco driving". You know, all the little things most good truck drivers have been doing for years, like using the gears properly to control speed, instead of alternating between throttle and brake, or coasting up to a red light and trying to time you arrival so you hit it when it turns green and won't have to stop, as opposed to blasting away at top speed, braking at the last moment before hitting the car in front of you, sitting idle for a minute and then putting the throttle to the floor when the light turns green. I've heard of a few mechanics who aren't too happy about that practice. They're afraid they'll lose a good chunk of their income because new drivers won't be torturing their vehicles like they used to
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 27, 2016 13:40:18 GMT
And here I thought the goal was always to beat everybody to the red light so you could be the first car out and beat everybody to the next red light.
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 27, 2016 20:34:14 GMT
And here I thought the goal was always to beat everybody to the red light so you could be the first car out and beat everybody to the next red light. Seems that's the way the mechanics would like it to be. Brakes, clutches and tires pay the rent, apparently.
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Post by the light works on Oct 16, 2016 0:14:37 GMT
our media is currently in storm coverage mode. there is a building under construction near the studio for the channel we are watching, and they became curious because the tower crane that was building it appeared to be spinning in the wind. they followed up and found out that when they shut down a tower crane in high winds, they set it to rotate, so that it does not just sit and catch the wind.
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 16, 2016 13:03:03 GMT
our media is currently in storm coverage mode. there is a building under construction near the studio for the channel we are watching, and they became curious because the tower crane that was building it appeared to be spinning in the wind. they followed up and found out that when they shut down a tower crane in high winds, they set it to rotate, so that it does not just sit and catch the wind. They basically allow it to be a wind-vane.... because if they leave it sideways to the wind, it can bend the tower, with all the weight of the wind on the boom?.. it acts like a very poorly efficient sail, but a sail still.
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Post by the light works on Oct 16, 2016 14:29:11 GMT
our media is currently in storm coverage mode. there is a building under construction near the studio for the channel we are watching, and they became curious because the tower crane that was building it appeared to be spinning in the wind. they followed up and found out that when they shut down a tower crane in high winds, they set it to rotate, so that it does not just sit and catch the wind. They basically allow it to be a wind-vane.... because if they leave it sideways to the wind, it can bend the tower, with all the weight of the wind on the boom?.. it acts like a very poorly efficient sail, but a sail still. the clip and the subsequent clips wasn't completely clear on whether they set it to weather vane, or they actually engage the drive motor to keep it rotating. it is conceivable that structure of the thing has enough directional sail area to put it into continuous motion, but it doesn't really look like it.
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 16, 2016 18:11:06 GMT
Looks to me like they just disengage the drive and hope for the best. Torquing the base is probably more destructive than whatever side load the wind would put on It.
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Post by ponytail61 on Oct 16, 2016 20:35:12 GMT
They set brakes on them when they get out but the brake has a pressure limit so it can move in the wind. That one looks like maybe the brake wasn't set or is faulty and it's in free spin.
In this video you can see one crane spinning and the other locked in place. I would guess the same situation here.
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Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2016 0:29:45 GMT
They set brakes on them when they get out but the brake has a pressure limit so it can move in the wind. That one looks like maybe the brake wasn't set or is faulty and it's in free spin. In this video you can see one crane spinning and the other locked in place. I would guess the same situation here. the actual clip from Saturday said they told the TV guy they put it in that mode, deliberately. so it might be in the two crane clip, the one had not been operated since the wind warning came in and so the brake was set and nobody went up to release it.
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 17, 2016 9:45:37 GMT
Could also be that the second crane may have hit "something" if left to swing. On sites where there is a chance of two cranes overlapping, they have to plan the lifts carefully... in that second clip, it cold be they locked the second crane to prevent collision with the one left swinging...
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Post by alabastersandman on Apr 13, 2017 0:14:49 GMT
Hot glue is hot
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