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Post by the light works on Nov 24, 2017 17:16:23 GMT
myth 1: chimney cannon
Myth 2: chain saw gun
myth 1: in a house with a fireplace converted to propane, a would be burglar got stuck in the chimney, the family tried to ignite the fireplace, and due to a propane leak, the fireplace shot the burglar like a cannon.
oh, there are so many variables available to work with in this. the biggest factor they missed is that in a gas fireplace conversion, the flue is usually lined with a metallic exhaust line, by which I mean a four inch diameter tube. I think this is to protect the masonry from the exhaust gases which may affect the mortar. could the conversion have been done differently? yes, so not a deal breaker. the next factor is that in a house old enough to have an improperly set up gas fireplace conversion, there is a lot more weight of masonry around the flue liner. so good process, definitely not plausible, but there is still some chance they might be able to replicate the results.
myth 2: we've seen it on the old boards, though in this iteration, they made a more realistic scenario by substituting a hunter. the original story: a kid tries to commit suicide by shooting himself, but misses and hits a tree. years later, cutting the tree up for firewood, his saw fires the bullet lodged in the tree, finishing the earlier suicide attempt. so to eliminate the impossible bit: a bullet can't be fired, twice. (without recovering and reloading it, anyway) one significant criticism, and this may come back in the future: Brian made the comment that despite the relatively low velocity of the chain, (90 FPS, in my flawed recollection) the mass of the drive system could make the bullet come out of the log much faster. - which was then backed up by the narrator. I'd like to see that revisited, sometime, because I know that there are some scenarios where a projectile leaves at a higher velocity than the motive force - but is there enough resilience in this system for that to work, here?
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 25, 2017 9:11:20 GMT
1, how sturdy is a chimney?.
Even if no liner, I hardly think its sturdy enough to act as a cannon.
Think of even the earliest cannons, a small one-pound shot cannon, and think how thick the metal would have to be?.
I am suggesting to shift the weight of an adult upwards out of the chimney would require a blast that would probably "Blow the bloody doors off" the house, and then, I am wondering, this isnt a contained cylinder anyway, having that huge fireplace below, so I suggest any blast would effectively on a blocked chimney the direction of the blast would be out the fireplace.....
Two, on having hit a small foreign object in a tree with a chainsaw.
Depends on the chainsaw..
If its a small home use saw, they are dangerous, but not like that?..
If an industrial how fast to they go anyway?.
Chainsaws dont cut "that fast" in the wood, so the tips of the blade would encounter the object far before the meat of the tooth got enough purchase to flip the object out?.
You would hear the change on tune, feel a blockage, and maybe have the thing kick-back before it freed the bullet?.
If you did get down as far as the bullet, it would only fly as fast as the woodchips around it.
Yeah, if you get too close, they sting.... I have had woodchips off a chainsaw on exposed skin, it doesnt cause great gashes.
As for a chunk of metal, like a small nail, yeah, they do fly a bit harder than wood, and I wear eye protection at all times and a jacket or at least padded shirt, and I have hit a chunk of stone gravel chip caught in the roots of a tree I was cutting out, it whipped at me, left a small bruise, but penetration was zero?.
As in I hardly noticed it at the time.
As for a lump of a bullet?. I will not state that it wont cause injury, but I will state that unless its a sensitive part, such as an Eye, it wont be that serious?.
But then again, I dont try for industrial chainsaws that may be a bit more lethal.
As for a bullet firing twice... nah... if there was some kind of reside from the gunpowder, wouldnt the tree have absorbed it anyway?. and even then, 99.9999% of not enough left there to blow a budgerigar's nose?..
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 25, 2017 9:18:48 GMT
BTW, one variation of that story.
I heard this one many may years ago, on the importance of "Policing" yer rounds...
Some fella was out hunting the grouse, not perhaps fully legit, shall we say poaching?.
Anyways, he gets comfortable under a tree, and sorts out a few round for the shotgun, puts two in and leaves another two for quick reload on the fork of a branch of the tree...
The first shot he gets his prey, runs off to get that, and completely forgets about those two spare cartridges.
You guessed the rest...
Many years later, someone swings an axe, and the tree has grown around those cartridges, the axe does that million-to-one shot and detonates the cartridge.
I call busted on that having seen the episode on MacGyver setting off a round with the butt of a gun through a nail kind of thing... getting a replica of a firing pin type shot on a cartridge is almost impossible, to do that with a axe?..
Plus, UNDER a tree?.. who da duck hunts grouse under a tree?..
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Post by the light works on Nov 25, 2017 14:28:57 GMT
1, how sturdy is a chimney?. Even if no liner, I hardly think its sturdy enough to act as a cannon. Think of even the earliest cannons, a small one-pound shot cannon, and think how thick the metal would have to be?. I am suggesting to shift the weight of an adult upwards out of the chimney would require a blast that would probably "Blow the bloody doors off" the house, and then, I am wondering, this isnt a contained cylinder anyway, having that huge fireplace below, so I suggest any blast would effectively on a blocked chimney the direction of the blast would be out the fireplace..... Two, on having hit a small foreign object in a tree with a chainsaw. Depends on the chainsaw.. If its a small home use saw, they are dangerous, but not like that?.. If an industrial how fast to they go anyway?. Chainsaws dont cut "that fast" in the wood, so the tips of the blade would encounter the object far before the meat of the tooth got enough purchase to flip the object out?. You would hear the change on tune, feel a blockage, and maybe have the thing kick-back before it freed the bullet?. If you did get down as far as the bullet, it would only fly as fast as the woodchips around it. Yeah, if you get too close, they sting.... I have had woodchips off a chainsaw on exposed skin, it doesnt cause great gashes. As for a chunk of metal, like a small nail, yeah, they do fly a bit harder than wood, and I wear eye protection at all times and a jacket or at least padded shirt, and I have hit a chunk of stone gravel chip caught in the roots of a tree I was cutting out, it whipped at me, left a small bruise, but penetration was zero?. As in I hardly noticed it at the time. As for a lump of a bullet?. I will not state that it wont cause injury, but I will state that unless its a sensitive part, such as an Eye, it wont be that serious?. But then again, I dont try for industrial chainsaws that may be a bit more lethal. As for a bullet firing twice... nah... if there was some kind of reside from the gunpowder, wouldnt the tree have absorbed it anyway?. and even then, 99.9999% of not enough left there to blow a budgerigar's nose?.. the only real difference between a commercial chain saw and a homeowner chain saw is the width of the bar and the depth of the teeth. - at least with Stihl. each motor has a different horsepower rating, but they all run at about the same speed, because that gives a good balance between a fast cut and not overheating your chain. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 26, 2017 9:07:54 GMT
the only real difference between a commercial chain saw and a homeowner chain saw is the width of the bar and the depth of the teeth. - at least with Stihl. each motor has a different horsepower rating, but they all run at about the same speed, because that gives a good balance between a fast cut and not overheating your chain. But the horses are important, example, a home 1hp motor takes longer to cut and will block easier than an industrial 5hp motor. Therefore, the power in a Industrial is probably going to grip and rip a foreign object easier than a home "hobbyist" motor?. BTW, all mine are electric, I have no idea how many horses they are, and I forget what I used back 20/30 yrs ago last time regularly I used a infernal combustion. But I have grabbed a genuine rip chain on the big brother Bosh one instead of the elf-and-safe-tea one supplied, because that couldnt cut warm butter... The chain I have now cuts, doesnt heat up as much, and doesnt get as laboured as the "not quite so dangerous" one they supplied. |
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Post by OziRiS on Nov 26, 2017 10:37:36 GMT
BTW, one variation of that story. I heard this one many may years ago, on the importance of "Policing" yer rounds... Some fella was out hunting the grouse, not perhaps fully legit, shall we say poaching?. Anyways, he gets comfortable under a tree, and sorts out a few round for the shotgun, puts two in and leaves another two for quick reload on the fork of a branch of the tree... The first shot he gets his prey, runs off to get that, and completely forgets about those two spare cartridges. You guessed the rest... Many years later, someone swings an axe, and the tree has grown around those cartridges, the axe does that million-to-one shot and detonates the cartridge. I call busted on that having seen the episode on MacGyver setting off a round with the butt of a gun through a nail kind of thing... getting a replica of a firing pin type shot on a cartridge is almost impossible, to do that with a axe?.. Plus, UNDER a tree?.. who da duck hunts grouse under a tree?.. I'm sure you're right in your assessment that it's busted right off the bat, but wouldn't it be fun to submit it, have it tested and possibly get surprised by the result? |
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Post by OziRiS on Nov 26, 2017 10:43:16 GMT
On this episode:
Not quite as good as the first one, but not bad either. Both myths seemed doomed for the "Busted" bin from the beginning, but as with so many others in the past, watching the testing process and hoping you would be surprised by the results was entertaining enough in its own right.
After Brian's "death giggles" line in the first episode, I was hoping I'd be able to post another quote of the episode after this one, but there wasn't much to work with. There was plenty of potential for comedic commentary by our hosts, but nothing really stuck out.
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Post by mrfatso on Nov 26, 2017 13:14:44 GMT
BTW, one variation of that story. I heard this one many may years ago, on the importance of "Policing" yer rounds... Some fella was out hunting the grouse, not perhaps fully legit, shall we say poaching?. Anyways, he gets comfortable under a tree, and sorts out a few round for the shotgun, puts two in and leaves another two for quick reload on the fork of a branch of the tree... The first shot he gets his prey, runs off to get that, and completely forgets about those two spare cartridges. You guessed the rest... Many years later, someone swings an axe, and the tree has grown around those cartridges, the axe does that million-to-one shot and detonates the cartridge. I call busted on that having seen the episode on MacGyver setting off a round with the butt of a gun through a nail kind of thing... getting a replica of a firing pin type shot on a cartridge is almost impossible, to do that with a axe?.. Plus, UNDER a tree?.. who da duck hunts grouse under a tree?.. Although in the UK we associate grouse shoots with moorlands in other places they are hunted in forests. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 26, 2017 15:20:55 GMT
the only real difference between a commercial chain saw and a homeowner chain saw is the width of the bar and the depth of the teeth. - at least with Stihl. each motor has a different horsepower rating, but they all run at about the same speed, because that gives a good balance between a fast cut and not overheating your chain. But the horses are important, example, a home 1hp motor takes longer to cut and will block easier than an industrial 5hp motor. Therefore, the power in a Industrial is probably going to grip and rip a foreign object easier than a home "hobbyist" motor?. BTW, all mine are electric, I have no idea how many horses they are, and I forget what I used back 20/30 yrs ago last time regularly I used a infernal combustion. But I have grabbed a genuine rip chain on the big brother Bosh one instead of the elf-and-safe-tea one supplied, because that couldnt cut warm butter... The chain I have now cuts, doesnt heat up as much, and doesnt get as laboured as the "not quite so dangerous" one they supplied. tell me, will you get from London to Leeds any faster towing a gasoline tanker with a 3000BHP tractor than you will with a 1000BHP tractor? my commercial chain saw actually has three less horsepower than the top homeowner chain saw. but they all top out at about the same chain speed. HP matters to how big a tree they can cut, and how rapidly they can push through, but not to how fast the chain goes. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 27, 2017 7:57:56 GMT
But the horses are important, example, a home 1hp motor takes longer to cut and will block easier than an industrial 5hp motor. Therefore, the power in a Industrial is probably going to grip and rip a foreign object easier than a home "hobbyist" motor?. BTW, all mine are electric, I have no idea how many horses they are, and I forget what I used back 20/30 yrs ago last time regularly I used a infernal combustion. But I have grabbed a genuine rip chain on the big brother Bosh one instead of the elf-and-safe-tea one supplied, because that couldnt cut warm butter... The chain I have now cuts, doesnt heat up as much, and doesnt get as laboured as the "not quite so dangerous" one they supplied. tell me, will you get from London to Leeds any faster towing a gasoline tanker with a 3000BHP tractor than you will with a 1000BHP tractor? my commercial chain saw actually has three less horsepower than the top homeowner chain saw. but they all top out at about the same chain speed. HP matters to how big a tree they can cut, and how rapidly they can push through, but not to how fast the chain goes. Truth?. the 3000bhp tractor will make it up the hills faster, as the 1000bhp will slow considerably on the steep stuff, even though both are limited to 55 mph. The 3000 will therefore spend more time at 55 than the 1000. I think we are trying to make the same point... ? |
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Post by the light works on Nov 27, 2017 9:08:34 GMT
tell me, will you get from London to Leeds any faster towing a gasoline tanker with a 3000BHP tractor than you will with a 1000BHP tractor? my commercial chain saw actually has three less horsepower than the top homeowner chain saw. but they all top out at about the same chain speed. HP matters to how big a tree they can cut, and how rapidly they can push through, but not to how fast the chain goes. Truth?. the 3000bhp tractor will make it up the hills faster, as the 1000bhp will slow considerably on the steep stuff, even though both are limited to 55 mph. The 3000 will therefore spend more time at 55 than the 1000. I think we are trying to make the same point... ? you asked what the difference was between the homeowner saw and the commercial saw in regards to the bullet. that is the difference. I believe you don't have 5th wheel RVs (caravans) over there.  because that would be an even better way to make the comparison. except that you can put a larger kingpin on an RV and tow it with a commercial truck, and a chain saw chain IS the kingpin. |
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Post by wvengineer on Nov 28, 2017 6:58:16 GMT
Toyota did a stunt a few years ago where they used a stock diesel Tundra (380 HP, 400 ft-lb torque, 100,000 lb rated towing capacity) to tow a 292,000 lb space shuttle.
Another example is a local scenic railroad has an annual competition/charity fundraiser for people in teems of 10 to pull a 350,000 lbs (with water and fuel, full load) steam locomotive. With the prize to the team that can get get the best speed. We are talking about feet per minute here. I don't know the power rating of a person, but I highly doubt it is more than a couple HP here. Although here we are talking about rails, not road.
So power doesn't relate to how much you can tow if you are careful how you tow it, if you don't care how long it take to get there. It does make a difference how fast you go.
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Post by the light works on Nov 28, 2017 15:03:32 GMT
Toyota did a stunt a few years ago where they used a stock diesel Tundra (380 HP, 400 ft-lb torque, 100,000 lb rated towing capacity) to tow a 292,000 lb space shuttle. Another example is a local scenic railroad has an annual competition/charity fundraiser for people in teems of 10 to pull a 350,000 lbs (with water and fuel, full load) steam locomotive. With the prize to the team that can get get the best speed. We are talking about feet per minute here. I don't know the power rating of a person, but I highly doubt it is more than a couple HP here. Although here we are talking about rails, not road. So power doesn't relate to how much you can tow if you are careful how you tow it, if you don't care how long it take to get there. It does make a difference how fast you go. we actually did this in college physics, and I think it came to round a quarter of a horsepower. of course, we were using a stair climb, instead of a dynamometer, so the actual numbers might be higher. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 29, 2017 9:18:20 GMT
Toyota did a stunt a few years ago where they used a stock diesel Tundra (380 HP, 400 ft-lb torque, 100,000 lb rated towing capacity) to tow a 292,000 lb space shuttle. Another example is a local scenic railroad has an annual competition/charity fundraiser for people in teems of 10 to pull a 350,000 lbs (with water and fuel, full load) steam locomotive. With the prize to the team that can get get the best speed. We are talking about feet per minute here. I don't know the power rating of a person, but I highly doubt it is more than a couple HP here. Although here we are talking about rails, not road. So power doesn't relate to how much you can tow if you are careful how you tow it, if you don't care how long it take to get there. It does make a difference how fast you go. we actually did this in college physics, and I think it came to round a quarter of a horsepower. of course, we were using a stair climb, instead of a dynamometer, so the actual numbers might be higher. Depends on the Human?.. in my days when I was at peak performance, oh how I remember those days, I could pedal a bike up a 1:4 hill, 1.5 mile long, 25% for all those decimalized people, its still 1.5 mile long, carry on up 1:4/5/6/--10 al the way over the peaks, I reckon in them days quarter of a horse may have been left for dust.... Now?. Quarter of a horse would be welcome under my wheelchair?. Just not the bit that nags, I have a wife for that. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 29, 2017 12:32:39 GMT
we actually did this in college physics, and I think it came to round a quarter of a horsepower. of course, we were using a stair climb, instead of a dynamometer, so the actual numbers might be higher. Depends on the Human?.. in my days when I was at peak performance, oh how I remember those days, I could pedal a bike up a 1:4 hill, 1.5 mile long, 25% for all those decimalized people, its still 1.5 mile long, carry on up 1:4/5/6/--10 al the way over the peaks, I reckon in them days quarter of a horse may have been left for dust.... Now?. Quarter of a horse would be welcome under my wheelchair?. Just not the bit that nags, I have a wife for that. yeah, I had times my cruising speed on a bicycle was around 18 MPH. I forget the maths, but one HP is so much weight lifted so much distance in so much time. hence we timed stair climbs and weighed ourselves to get the numbers. |
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Post by koshka on Nov 29, 2017 16:34:41 GMT
Finally watched this the other night (family commitments last weekend). Most of my comments have already been covered.
Could anyone get a good look at new Buster? I think the show's gotten a Simulaid instead of another crash test dummy, but I'm not certain. I also think the "delivery" sequence was filmed after the shop tests for episode 1's feet-on-dashboard test, because that damage looked familiar.
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Post by the light works on Nov 29, 2017 16:48:33 GMT
Finally watched this the other night (family commitments last weekend). Most of my comments have already been covered. Could anyone get a good look at new Buster? I think the show's gotten a Simulaid instead of another crash test dummy, but I'm not certain. I also think the "delivery" sequence was filmed after the shop tests for episode 1's feet-on-dashboard test, because that damage looked familiar. the dummy used in episode one looked a lot like a fire/rescue training dummy. didn't get a really good look at the second episode dummy, but I would guess it was probably the same one. |
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Post by wvengineer on Nov 30, 2017 2:48:16 GMT
yeah, I had times my cruising speed on a bicycle was around 18 MPH. I forget the maths, but one HP is so much weight lifted so much distance in so much time. hence we timed stair climbs and weighed ourselves to get the numbers. 1 HP=550 ft lb/sec. So lift a 550 lb weight 1 foot in one second. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 30, 2017 3:27:53 GMT
yeah, I had times my cruising speed on a bicycle was around 18 MPH. I forget the maths, but one HP is so much weight lifted so much distance in so much time. hence we timed stair climbs and weighed ourselves to get the numbers. 1 HP=550 ft lb/sec. So lift a 550 lb weight 1 foot in one second. so that would mean it took me 12 seconds to climb a full flight of stairs. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 30, 2017 8:59:00 GMT
I have to admit, the bringing in of the "Super-saw", kind of surprised me...
250CC motorcycle engine. Neat. I want one.
Now "Some may say" that the Stig has a bigger toothbrush than that, his being a V8, but, on discussion with my kids, how bloody heavy is a 250CC motorcycle engine anyway... add in a oil fuel and possible coolant reservoir, 250CC is pretty large for as hand held engine.. we believe thats just about right for a demonstration machine, wouldnt want to be using one all day long.
So after all that, its down to the chain speed, and what that can impart to a solid object, that isnt too stuck in the wood to flick its self out.
I suppose, if its a recent hole, and you get the trajectory "Just right", it could come back out the hole it went in with, but thats going to be a 1:1,000,000 shot isnt it?.
And then all the bullets seen tumbled in flight, which we know from previous shows, slows them down anyway.
Faster chain speed?
I know from my days in motorcycling, there is a definite end at which chains can operate safely, and its not going to be anywhere near what you could call sub-sonic, because then a snail is also a sub sonic animal.
conservation of movement, I cant see a chain imparting a faster than the chain is moving speed to the bullet?.
So even if you could gear up the chain for more speed but less power...
..Final verdict... at this time, this is still busted.
The chimney cannon thing.
I laughed at the first "poof", and buster2.0 rising about a foot-and-a-half.
The final "Lets ramp this up" was only ever going to go one way wasnt it?. but it needed doing, and proved the point nicely.
But on that, buster just stayed where he was whilst the chimney failed around him and then just observed the laws of gravity?..
I would have thought he would have got a little more lift out of that?.
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