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Post by silverdragon on Feb 1, 2018 11:38:19 GMT
E-Cigarettes are they "safe" My position, initially, yes, compared to actually smoking. I am an Ex-Smoker, I used to do 40 a day, to 60 a day if it was a long stressful drive. I no longer smoke tobacco. But I do "vape". This is a personal journey into me giving up smoking of any form, and a work in progress, but, it echo's the nation, in that millions of people worldwide each day have taken up Vaping or E-Cigarettes rather than tobacco... Surely that is good news?. I say it is, because the vape that is is less harmful than Cigarette smoke, and as yet, no one has proven that the second hand "steam" from a E-Cig has any detrimental effect to others that is anywhere near as dangerous as second hand tobacco smoke. And yet there are those with their hair on fire who see the vapour as smoke and therefore "Its bad for everyone"... I got news for them. My car has had an emissions check, its about just above zero as enough to be an emission that can be measured, but low enough in the PPM to be actually better than breathing the exhaust fumes in a average city that has mixed traffic. Yet on a cold day, it "smokes", because it steams a little ion vaporising the water in the air the engine breathes. Its no more harmful than the vapour that comes out of a kettle. There are test results due any time soon that are there to show how harmful Vaping is. I am expecting them to show that they are entirely non harmful in comparison to the second hand smoke you may experience on a day to day average exposure to city living. And entirely almost 100% less harmful than tobacco products. Yet still the call for them to be banned in all public places... Because that is smoking and its bad for you. Are these the people that set the hair on fire over the smoking ban in pubs citing that as the main reason that hey avoided public houses and bars and therefore you SHOULD implement a smoking ban in all pubs and bars to encourage more people to go in?. Yet still they stay away in droves, to the cost of since that ban WAS implemented and those people failed to make an appearance, the pubs popularity has declined, to the tune of in England, six per day, every day, establishments have been forced to close, because of the drop in trade since the smoking ban. And its ONLY the smoking ban that has changed the trade in those pubs. And now?. There is a call to ban E-Cigarette use in exactly the same way, based purely on the evidence "they are still smoking and its bad for them, and for me to be anywhere near them" hype by the anti-smokers, with no actual facts to support their views. Will this now be the end of E-Cigarette usage the same as tobacco?. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-27184630/the-arguments-for-and-against-the-e-cigaretteSingapore has now implemented a full state wide ban on E-Cigarettes, even found to be in possession of is illegal. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-42900963/singapore-vaping-ban-my-last-legal-puffSo, what does everyone else think?. This is a three part question. One, Tobacco versus Vape, which would you prefer to be within smelling distance of on any public street. Two, Is there any proof either way that being in the same locality of a Vape-er is dangerous in any way, as for the smell, compared to someone who overdid the antiperspirant or hairspray that morning, I know who I would rather have to share a cafe with. Three, is there any proof at all that any person is in danger of "second hand" vape, unless you are right up close within sat next to them not by choice distance, such as a seat, the only seat, on public transport?. ...Add a fourth, if it was a separated area vapeing or non vapeing, same as it used to be with Tobacco, therefore easy to implement, would it make any difference?. Is there enough evidence to just ban all vapeing at all because there are "worse than smoking" dangers? Since my own change to Vape, my lung capacity has been better, my general health has improved, and my Doc agrees that I am "in better shape", [where there is some freedom of what shape that may be there.] |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 1, 2018 14:33:44 GMT
Is it "safe"? Probably not. Is it safer than smoking? Probably. Until we have some controlled scientific studies indicating one way or the other, I'd go with common sense. And my commonsense tells me that constantly inhailing a substance that is foreign to your lungs is not a good idea.
Like you, my son-in-law was a heavy cigarette smoker. He switched to vaping a couple of years ago. I recently rode in his car and was surprised to find that his windshield had the same goo on it that it had when he used to smoke cigarettes. He told me that the build up was worse since he switched to vaping then it was when he smoked cigarettes. If the vaping solution is sticking to his windshield, I can only imagine it's also sticking to the lining of his lungs. And my commonsense tells me, that has to be bad.
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Post by the light works on Feb 1, 2018 16:54:42 GMT
1: I am highly amused when I see a car suddenly issue huge clouds of white out of the passenger compartment. it seems many vaping devices have an "extra cool clouds" setting that significantly increase the amount of discharge the person can produce.
but for my choices: first choice would be a good pipe or a vape on low discharge. second would be a vape on high discharge. third would be other tobacco smoking.
2: I am extremely sensitive to airborne pollutants. I'd rather not have any unnecessary airborne stuff.
3: I have not seen any documentation on dispersal of contaminants from vaping devices. here, I think the mindset is if you ban everything you cut off the "if he can, why can't I?" argument.
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Post by the light works on Feb 1, 2018 16:56:07 GMT
as for "is it safe?"
nicotine is toxic. it makes a very effective insecticide.
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Post by wvengineer on Feb 1, 2018 18:28:36 GMT
The hazards of smoking are well established. Part of the problem with e-cigs is that they are still pretty new to the market. There is some research on their health and use impact, but not nearly as much as traditional smoking. The findings so far show that while the chemicals inhaled are less dangerous than tradtional smoking, there is still risks. Estimates range of between 60-85% less hazardous chemicals in e-cigs. So better, but not perfect. E-cigs have the added risk now of the electrical components. There have been a number of people hurt by batteries that burst or catch fire. If you consider traditional Chinese quality control of the electrical computations, you have a good deal of risk there. I don't know about British laws, but in the US, e-cigs are not regulated nearly as much as normal cigarettes. Sale of them is still limited, but controls about what can and cannot go into the products is not established nearly as tightly as traditional tobacco is, at least not yet. www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/features/vape-debate-electronic-cigarettesnewsroom.ucla.edu/stories/how-safe-is-vaping |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 1, 2018 21:55:56 GMT
...controls about what can and cannot go into the products is not established nearly as tightly as traditional tobacco is, at least not yet. And that's part of the possible health risks. You go into your local vape shop and you'll find hundreds, if not thousands of vape juice flavors. Many of which are concocted by someone in their garage "Lab" with no knowledge of chemistry or medical background. As you state, a lot of that is changing, but there is still a lot of underground activity. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 1, 2018 22:21:55 GMT
...controls about what can and cannot go into the products is not established nearly as tightly as traditional tobacco is, at least not yet. And that's part of the possible health risks. You go into your local vape shop and you'll find hundreds, if not thousands of vape juice flavors. Many of which are concocted by someone in their garage "Lab" with no knowledge of chemistry or medical background. As you state, a lot of that is changing, but there is still a lot of underground activity. and I always find it amusing when I cross paths with a person who doesn't trust "big pharma" but buys things people have concocted in home labs with no oversight. - not that I am implying anyone here does that. |
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 2, 2018 7:24:15 GMT
The hazards of smoking are well established. Part of the problem with e-cigs is that they are still pretty new to the market. There is some research on their health and use impact, but not nearly as much as traditional smoking. The findings so far show that while the chemicals inhaled are less dangerous than tradtional smoking, there is still risks. Estimates range of between 60-85% less hazardous chemicals in e-cigs. So better, but not perfect. E-cigs have the added risk now of the electrical components. There have been a number of people hurt by batteries that burst or catch fire. If you consider traditional Chinese quality control of the electrical computations, you have a good deal of risk there. I don't know about British laws, but in the US, e-cigs are not regulated nearly as much as normal cigarettes. Sale of them is still limited, but controls about what can and cannot go into the products is not established nearly as tightly as traditional tobacco is, at least not yet. www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/features/vape-debate-electronic-cigarettesnewsroom.ucla.edu/stories/how-safe-is-vaping60 to 85% less harmful. If 100 people that smoke have even 50% of them change to E-Fag, thats a hell of a lot less airborne pollutants?. On that score, about half the people I know who smoke already have made the swap, which is why I use that 50%, out of those that swap, I know a good handful who gave up completely already, and those that vape smoke a hell of a lot less than those who dont, and for less time as well, because an E-Fag can be turned off, you dont have to finish a whole one at once. You dont need to do the math to note that as a bunch, we Vapers are emitting a lot less harmful pollutants, its evident there isnt it?. The difference between UK and U$A law on them, not much difference, you need to be licensed to sell nicotine, not as tight control as traditional tobacco as you say, but on that evidence alone, isnt it better that maybe all people stop tobacco use?. There has been a cry that young people are starting vaping. Erm, yeah, so what?. As long as they are over say 14-15, the law will say they should be over 16, but nearly all smokers started about that age anyway, and for me, if they were going to smoke anyway, isnt it better that they start the electronic way? Of course it would be better still if they didnt smoke at all... Its just Kids are no different now than when I was one of them, there will always be the few who buck the rules. I know, I was one, and I can be that stupid to demand no kid do what I did?. On the score that TLW stated the cloud of super smoke from the small furnace that some people use, yeah, stupid is. There are now vapes that use a 30 mil bottle "per day", yeah, like why?. 10 mil lasts me 4/5 days?. On the score of the screen getting misted up, tell your son-in-law Greg, use his fan on the windscreen, and have his A/C to condense it out, I do that and most of the vapour is dispersed down the drain from the A/C in my own car... its mostly steam anyway, I hardly get any windscreen film at all, only on damp days. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 2, 2018 11:21:50 GMT
The hazards of smoking are well established. Part of the problem with e-cigs is that they are still pretty new to the market. There is some research on their health and use impact, but not nearly as much as traditional smoking. The findings so far show that while the chemicals inhaled are less dangerous than tradtional smoking, there is still risks. Estimates range of between 60-85% less hazardous chemicals in e-cigs. So better, but not perfect. E-cigs have the added risk now of the electrical components. There have been a number of people hurt by batteries that burst or catch fire. If you consider traditional Chinese quality control of the electrical computations, you have a good deal of risk there. I don't know about British laws, but in the US, e-cigs are not regulated nearly as much as normal cigarettes. Sale of them is still limited, but controls about what can and cannot go into the products is not established nearly as tightly as traditional tobacco is, at least not yet. www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/features/vape-debate-electronic-cigarettesnewsroom.ucla.edu/stories/how-safe-is-vaping60 to 85% less harmful. If 100 people that smoke have even 50% of them change to E-Fag, thats a hell of a lot less airborne pollutants?. On that score, about half the people I know who smoke already have made the swap, which is why I use that 50%, out of those that swap, I know a good handful who gave up completely already, and those that vape smoke a hell of a lot less than those who dont, and for less time as well, because an E-Fag can be turned off, you dont have to finish a whole one at once. You dont need to do the math to note that as a bunch, we Vapers are emitting a lot less harmful pollutants, its evident there isnt it?. The difference between UK and U$A law on them, not much difference, you need to be licensed to sell nicotine, not as tight control as traditional tobacco as you say, but on that evidence alone, isnt it better that maybe all people stop tobacco use?. There has been a cry that young people are starting vaping. Erm, yeah, so what?. As long as they are over say 14-15, the law will say they should be over 16, but nearly all smokers started about that age anyway, and for me, if they were going to smoke anyway, isnt it better that they start the electronic way? Of course it would be better still if they didnt smoke at all... Its just Kids are no different now than when I was one of them, there will always be the few who buck the rules. I know, I was one, and I can be that stupid to demand no kid do what I did?. On the score that TLW stated the cloud of super smoke from the small furnace that some people use, yeah, stupid is. There are now vapes that use a 30 mil bottle "per day", yeah, like why?. 10 mil lasts me 4/5 days?. On the score of the screen getting misted up, tell your son-in-law Greg, use his fan on the windscreen, and have his A/C to condense it out, I do that and most of the vapour is dispersed down the drain from the A/C in my own car... its mostly steam anyway, I hardly get any windscreen film at all, only on damp days. Greg is not talking about his friend having his windshield fog up. he is talking about having to wash the inside of it just as often as when he was smoking. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 2, 2018 14:34:37 GMT
60 to 85% less harmful. If 100 people that smoke have even 50% of them change to E-Fag, thats a hell of a lot less airborne pollutants?. On that score, about half the people I know who smoke already have made the swap, which is why I use that 50%, out of those that swap, I know a good handful who gave up completely already, and those that vape smoke a hell of a lot less than those who dont, and for less time as well, because an E-Fag can be turned off, you dont have to finish a whole one at once. You dont need to do the math to note that as a bunch, we Vapers are emitting a lot less harmful pollutants, its evident there isnt it?. The difference between UK and U$A law on them, not much difference, you need to be licensed to sell nicotine, not as tight control as traditional tobacco as you say, but on that evidence alone, isnt it better that maybe all people stop tobacco use?. There has been a cry that young people are starting vaping. Erm, yeah, so what?. As long as they are over say 14-15, the law will say they should be over 16, but nearly all smokers started about that age anyway, and for me, if they were going to smoke anyway, isnt it better that they start the electronic way? Of course it would be better still if they didnt smoke at all... Its just Kids are no different now than when I was one of them, there will always be the few who buck the rules. I know, I was one, and I can be that stupid to demand no kid do what I did?. On the score that TLW stated the cloud of super smoke from the small furnace that some people use, yeah, stupid is. There are now vapes that use a 30 mil bottle "per day", yeah, like why?. 10 mil lasts me 4/5 days?. On the score of the screen getting misted up, tell your son-in-law Greg, use his fan on the windscreen, and have his A/C to condense it out, I do that and most of the vapour is dispersed down the drain from the A/C in my own car... its mostly steam anyway, I hardly get any windscreen film at all, only on damp days. Greg is not talking about his friend having his windshield fog up. he is talking about having to wash the inside of it just as often as when he was smoking. Right. What was collecting on his windshield wasn't going to evaporate off. Removing it required Windex and elbow grease. |
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 3, 2018 10:02:46 GMT
Greg is not talking about his friend having his windshield fog up. he is talking about having to wash the inside of it just as often as when he was smoking. Right. What was collecting on his windshield wasn't going to evaporate off. Removing it required Windex and elbow grease. And I am talking about having A/C on full inside so that the filters catch the fog before it settles, or, having the fan draw in the fresh air on full and have the fog blow out a partially open window before it settles. If it gets blown out the window, it cant settle can it?. I partially open a window when I smoke and aim the smoke out the window, yeah it may look like I am sending smoke signals, but it keeps my car fresher for longer?. "you would hardly know" that we smoke in my car, and its well past 15 yrs since I bought it?. I get more dust from usual non smoking use than I do any film from smoking in there. It aint much to put a fan on when you smoke. Hardly draws any power either. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 3, 2018 14:12:09 GMT
The point I was trying to make was not how to keep his windshield clean, it's that the window was getting the same type deposits on it with the e-cigarette as it was with a conventional cigarette. Whatever is collecting on the windshield is not just water vapor. It's a heavy oily substance that I doubt is good to be in your lungs. But then I could be wrong, I'm not a doctor.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 4, 2018 8:54:43 GMT
The point I was trying to make was not how to keep his windshield clean, it's that the window was getting the same type deposits on it with the e-cigarette as it was with a conventional cigarette. Whatever is collecting on the windshield is not just water vapor. It's a heavy oily substance that I doubt is good to be in your lungs. But then I could be wrong, I'm not a doctor. I misunderstood the point you were making... And how the heck does he allow it to get that nasty?. How often is it cleaned?. But to your point, I need clarification on this, because this is what I was told verbatim, not anything I find on internet. The "carrier" oil used is a perfectly harmless edible oil. Compared to what you would use in an engine.... yeah, neither of them is nice if you get it on a nice clean pair of shorts, but, the edible one, and I am in no way stating anyone should try this at home, but its not that harmful if ingested by accident?. Compared to the oils found in natural tobacco, they are several degrees "safer" to the human condition. and again, this is in direct comparison to smoking tobacco products. In an ideal world, we wouldnt have ANY of this, and no one would smoke. But in this rather confusing world we inhabit, compare Tobacco to Vapour, and its looking like there may be a clear winner? Not ideal, but, compare that to Ford model T to Ford Escort, I know which I would rather drive on a longer journey until something better comes along. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2018 15:30:55 GMT
The point I was trying to make was not how to keep his windshield clean, it's that the window was getting the same type deposits on it with the e-cigarette as it was with a conventional cigarette. Whatever is collecting on the windshield is not just water vapor. It's a heavy oily substance that I doubt is good to be in your lungs. But then I could be wrong, I'm not a doctor. I misunderstood the point you were making... And how the heck does he allow it to get that nasty?. How often is it cleaned?. But to your point, I need clarification on this, because this is what I was told verbatim, not anything I find on internet. The "carrier" oil used is a perfectly harmless edible oil. Compared to what you would use in an engine.... yeah, neither of them is nice if you get it on a nice clean pair of shorts, but, the edible one, and I am in no way stating anyone should try this at home, but its not that harmful if ingested by accident?. Compared to the oils found in natural tobacco, they are several degrees "safer" to the human condition. and again, this is in direct comparison to smoking tobacco products. In an ideal world, we wouldnt have ANY of this, and no one would smoke. But in this rather confusing world we inhabit, compare Tobacco to Vapour, and its looking like there may be a clear winner? Not ideal, but, compare that to Ford model T to Ford Escort, I know which I would rather drive on a longer journey until something better comes along. the Model T. oh, wait, you are talking about the UK version of the escort. I think I told you I made a trip in a US escort where we had trucks passing us on upgrades. LOADED trucks. and I know three people who sold their escort by the pound. the good news is a US Ford escort was actually more valuable than similar sized cars, when sold by the pound. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 4, 2018 17:09:31 GMT
The point I was trying to make was not how to keep his windshield clean, it's that the window was getting the same type deposits on it with the e-cigarette as it was with a conventional cigarette. Whatever is collecting on the windshield is not just water vapor. It's a heavy oily substance that I doubt is good to be in your lungs. But then I could be wrong, I'm not a doctor. I misunderstood the point you were making... And how the heck does he allow it to get that nasty?. How often is it cleaned?. But to your point, I need clarification on this, because this is what I was told verbatim, not anything I find on internet. The "carrier" oil used is a perfectly harmless edible oil. Compared to what you would use in an engine.... yeah, neither of them is nice if you get it on a nice clean pair of shorts, but, the edible one, and I am in no way stating anyone should try this at home, but its not that harmful if ingested by accident?. Compared to the oils found in natural tobacco, they are several degrees "safer" to the human condition. and again, this is in direct comparison to smoking tobacco products. In an ideal world, we wouldnt have ANY of this, and no one would smoke. But in this rather confusing world we inhabit, compare Tobacco to Vapour, and its looking like there may be a clear winner? Not ideal, but, compare that to Ford model T to Ford Escort, I know which I would rather drive on a longer journey until something better comes along. Edible and inhalable is not the same. You can drink a glass of water and it's good for you, but put it in your lungs and it will kill you. I'm sure vegetable oil is the same. I agree that vaping is probably better for your health than smoking tobacco and we were all happy when he switched. But just how much safer it is remains to be seen. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2018 17:18:53 GMT
I look at it as another example of people confusing safer, I.E. less harmful, with safe, I.E. not harmful at all. vaping is safer than smoking. nicotine is still harmful. inhalants of any kind are still harmful. inhaled medications still have the potential to harm you - it's just that not using them properly lets other problems harm you more.
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 26, 2019 18:32:52 GMT
Thought it might be interesting to take another look at this thread. In recent months, Vaping has come under some heavy scrutiny. Recent reports show a huge increase in teenager vaping. 8th grader use: 9.5%e-cigs, 3.6 Traditional tobacco. 12th grader use: 16.2%, e-cigs, 11.4 traditional tobacco There have been a rash over the last few months of lung illness related to Vaping. Something like 500 cases over the last few months. www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/no-common-thread-in-hundreds-of-vaping-lung-disease-cases-fda-official-says.htmlBecause of this, a number of states have put strict limits on sale to minors and the federal government has announced their intention to ban the sale of fruit flavored vapping oils to discourage teen usage. I do wonder what is going on with the lung illness. It seams like this has only been within the last few months. Why is that and what changed? Has this always been a problem and they just didn't keep records? Has popularity grown that much? Or has there been something else that changed to case this. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 26, 2019 19:27:27 GMT
Thought it might be interesting to take another look at this thread. In recent months, Vaping has come under some heavy scrutiny. Recent reports show a huge increase in teenager vaping. 8th grader use: 9.5%e-cigs, 3.6 Traditional tobacco. 12th grader use: 16.2%, e-cigs, 11.4 traditional tobacco There have been a rash over the last few months of lung illness related to Vaping. Something like 500 cases over the last few months. www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/no-common-thread-in-hundreds-of-vaping-lung-disease-cases-fda-official-says.htmlBecause of this, a number of states have put strict limits on sale to minors and the federal government has announced their intention to ban the sale of fruit flavored vapping oils to discourage teen usage. I do wonder what is going on with the lung illness. It seams like this has only been within the last few months. Why is that and what changed? Has this always been a problem and they just didn't keep records? Has popularity grown that much? Or has there been something else that changed to case this. vaping proponents claim that it is all from using bootleg pot vapes and yes, I think a revisit to the topic would be good. of course, I also think a revisit from Silver would be good. I do hope he hasn't suffered an unfortunate demise. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 26, 2019 19:56:56 GMT
Thought it might be interesting to take another look at this thread. In recent months, Vaping has come under some heavy scrutiny. Recent reports show a huge increase in teenager vaping. 8th grader use: 9.5%e-cigs, 3.6 Traditional tobacco. 12th grader use: 16.2%, e-cigs, 11.4 traditional tobacco There have been a rash over the last few months of lung illness related to Vaping. Something like 500 cases over the last few months. www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/no-common-thread-in-hundreds-of-vaping-lung-disease-cases-fda-official-says.htmlBecause of this, a number of states have put strict limits on sale to minors and the federal government has announced their intention to ban the sale of fruit flavored vapping oils to discourage teen usage. I do wonder what is going on with the lung illness. It seams like this has only been within the last few months. Why is that and what changed? Has this always been a problem and they just didn't keep records? Has popularity grown that much? Or has there been something else that changed to case this. vaping proponents that it is all from using bootleg pot vapes and yes, I think a revisit to the topic would be good. of course, I also think a revisit from Silver would be good. I do hope he hasn't suffered an unfortunate demise. From what I've seen, a lot of the problem is from vaping pot extract, but for whatever reason, you can't say anything negative about pot use. And yes, I'd also like to see SD show his scales around here again. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 26, 2019 20:04:18 GMT
vaping proponents that it is all from using bootleg pot vapes and yes, I think a revisit to the topic would be good. of course, I also think a revisit from Silver would be good. I do hope he hasn't suffered an unfortunate demise. From what I've seen, a lot of the problem is from vaping pot extract, but for whatever reason, you can't say anything negative about pot use. And yes, I'd also like to see SD show his scales around here again. to be specific, they're blaming the carrier used for the bootleg juice, and claiming that if the sweet and fruity flavored juices addicted adult nicotine users love so much, they will just go back to cigarettes and it will all be us evil non smokers' fault. meanwhile, I haven't seen a long term comparison, but it seems an awful lot to me like more kids are vaping than smoked for quite some time. I could be wrong about how many kids smoked and chewed tobacco, though. |
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