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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 26, 2019 21:09:36 GMT
I think the problem is the vaping industry pushing vaping as a safe alternative to smoking. Just because it was not proven to be un-safe, doesn't mean it's safe. I've never followed this "lesser of two evils" mentality. If they both are bad for you, then you should avoid both. I also don't understand how our government bodies (state or federal) can, on one hand, ban smoking and vaping, yet, on the other, promote smoking pot. Just doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by the light works on Sept 26, 2019 22:47:39 GMT
I think the problem is the vaping industry pushing vaping as a safe alternative to smoking. Just because it was not proven to be un-safe, doesn't mean it's safe. I've never followed this "lesser of two evils" mentality. If they both are bad for you, then you should avoid both. I also don't understand how our government bodies (state or federal) can, on one hand, ban smoking and vaping, yet, on the other, promote smoking pot. Just doesn't make sense to me. the closest the government is coming to banning smoking and vaping is restricting who can do it where - and the same restrictions apply to pot. whether nicotine is ever banned will be interesting to see - but the argument is that apart from artificial issues with the black market, pot has not been shown to be any more dangerous than alcohol or nicotine. interestingly, rumor has it Oregon is considering the possibility of decriminalizing other drugs. I haven't seen anything official about it, but if the theory is that we allow what I would call low-harm drugs with the intention of giving people an easy alternative to high-harm drugs it might reduce the problems with the high harm drugs; then I might consider that it was worth a try. I haven't seen statistics on how our opioid issue compares to states without legal recreational pot - I know we still get opioid overdoses. but if we allow people to produce and use things that can be done simply, like opium and pot; then there might not be as much market for heroin and bath salts.
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 27, 2019 0:13:28 GMT
One thing that concerns me is that resent surveys of teen vaper showed that nearly 70% of teens who vape think that what they are using does not contain nicotine. Many kids think it is safe and non addicting. At a minimum, a big Surgeon General's warning on Vap oils saying it contains nicotine (like cigarettes do) would go a long way to address that concern.
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Post by the light works on Sept 27, 2019 0:18:20 GMT
in the evening news, Oregon is up to 2 deaths from acute respiratory failure related to vaping.
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Post by the light works on Sept 27, 2019 0:44:21 GMT
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Post by rmc on Sept 27, 2019 2:53:27 GMT
If it's anything like lipoid pneumonia that they are getting it probably all makes sense: Compare an e-cigarette cartridge with a simple stage fogger device. The fog produced on stage is safe upto a point, but I wonder how well one would do pulling stage fog directly and immediately into their lungs for extended periods. The stage fogger and the e-cigarette cartridge seem to operate similarly and produce a strikingly similar smoke, or, well "fog". But, of course, the ingredients in the juice are different. Still, the lungs may develop pneumonia for nearly anything oily or sticky enough. I wonder if oil is at the heart of the problem somehow? images.app.goo.gl/Ep1E4AatQREKAFpg9www.healthline.com/health/lipoid-pneumonia
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Post by the light works on Sept 27, 2019 8:08:13 GMT
If it's anything like lipoid pneumonia that they are getting it probably all makes sense: Compare an e-cigarette cartridge with a simple stage fogger device. The fog produced on stage is safe upto a point, but I wonder how well one would do pulling stage fog directly and immediately into their lungs for extended periods. The stage fogger and the e-cigarette cartridge seem to operate similarly and produce a strikingly similar smoke, or, well "fog". But, of course, the ingredients in the juice are different. Still, the lungs may develop pneumonia for nearly anything oily or sticky enough. I wonder if oil is at the heart of the problem somehow? images.app.goo.gl/Ep1E4AatQREKAFpg9www.healthline.com/health/lipoid-pneumoniaassuming you haven't read any medical releases on the nature of the problem; you nailed it. I think I'm going to make a recommendation to our safety officer that we adopt a policy of putting anyone who works inside our training tower while we are operating the "smoke" system be on air.
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Post by rmc on Sept 27, 2019 12:58:17 GMT
Is it possible that some kind of particle density is involved with this too?
The dense fog produced by the e-cigarette is created using temperatures around 200 degrees celsius to about 250 degrees celsius. Whereas, the temperature of a standard fire-burning cigarette is somewhere around 400 degrees celsius to 900 degrees c. The space between particles might be denser if cooler, so maybe the e-cigarette delivers more material per breath than a standard cigarette? A standard cigarette is arguably unsafe already. So, if outdoing the performance of the standard cigarette is achieved, then perhaps that's a bad thing.
To me, it seems that the fog from an e-cigarette could be denser, have a tighter particle density, than that of the smoke produced from a standard cigarette.
So, though the fog machine and the e-cigarette likely produce their fog in same manner, if particle density is a factor, perhaps the fog machine at a distance is relatively safe because the fog density is reduced over distance. Whereas the e-cigarette at close range just delivers too dense a particle mass for the lungs?
Couple all of that with the fact that some people are actually using a type of oil (I think -- THC oil?) and the problem then becomes two fold: Too dense of a particle stream for the lungs combined with an oily substance capable of producing lipoid pneumonia.
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Post by the light works on Sept 27, 2019 14:03:50 GMT
Is it possible that some kind of particle density is involved with this too? The dense fog produced by the e-cigarette is created using temperatures around 200 degrees celsius to about 250 degrees celsius. Whereas, the temperature of a standard fire-burning cigarette is somewhere around 400 degrees celsius to 900 degrees c. The space between particles might be denser if cooler, so maybe the e-cigarette delivers more material per breath than a standard cigarette? A standard cigarette is arguably unsafe already. So, if outdoing the performance of the standard cigarette is achieved, then perhaps that's a bad thing. To me, it seems that the fog from an e-cigarette could be denser, have a tighter particle density, than that of the smoke produced from a standard cigarette. So, though the fog machine and the e-cigarette likely produce their fog in same manner, if particle density is a factor, perhaps the fog machine at a distance is relatively safe because the fog density is reduced over distance. Whereas the e-cigarette at close range just delivers too dense a particle mass for the lungs? Couple all of that with the fact that some people are actually using a type of oil (I think -- THC oil?) and the problem then becomes two fold: Too dense of a particle stream for the lungs combined with an oily substance capable of producing lipoid pneumonia. well, you're definitely getting a higher particle density sucking directly off the fog machine than being in the expanding volume of fog. but you're also right that one hit from an e-cig delivers as much active ingredient as a significant percentage of a cigarette. the THC oil accusation is related to the suggestion that bootleg "vape juice" uses vitamin E oil instead of glycerin. one person even declared that glycerin isn't oil.
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 27, 2019 14:38:56 GMT
I couple of observations.
A cigarette has a natural limit. They are only so long, so once you burn it all, most people stop. They take so many puffs/drags and they finish. Some will smoke a 2nd, but this is usually an exception. With e-cigarettes, most of them have a relatively large reservoir or vape oil. This enables them to vape a lot longer. It require a lot more self control from the vaper to decide when to stop.
It looks like it is pretty consistent that the concentration of nicotine is higher than smoked tobacco. A cigarette has ~9mg of nicotine, but a lot of it gets burnt off. So effective dose is 3-5 mg. Some estimates I have seen is that an e-cigarette can have and effective dose of nicotine as smoking a whole pack. Coupled with the lack of a natural stopping point, it is much harder to control your nicotine intake.
I could see vape oil makers making it stronger and being a subtle way to increase the addictiveness of vaping to hook/keep vapers. If they do it intentionally, that could be really bad for the vape juice makers. A 21st century repeat of the tobacco lawsuits of the 80's and 90's.
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Post by rmc on Sept 27, 2019 14:57:51 GMT
well, you're definitely getting a higher particle density sucking directly off the fog machine than being in the expanding volume of fog. but you're also right that one hit from an e-cig delivers as much active ingredient as a significant percentage of a cigarette. the THC oil accusation is related to the suggestion that bootleg "vape juice" uses vitamin E oil instead of glycerin. one person even declared that glycerin isn't oil. Looking at the structure of the alveoli, at a microscopic level, perhaps tiny particles of tar from traditional cigarette smoke are handled better than a thin layer of oil (as you state, Vitamin E oil - or acetate) because the oil covers the air sack more readily, more quickly and more completely than tar does. (tar ends up in bits and clumps, leaving some portion of the alveoli "clean" for a time) Plus, burnt substances have lost some portion of their initial mass such that they are lighter than some cooler substances whereby the lighter substances have less inertia and are more easily trapped by the body's natural pollutant collection systems before reaching the alveoli? So, oddly enough, higher temperature smoke is less dangerous than cooler fog, (at least a dense fog) especially when oil is involved. I wonder if the vitamin E oil could be converted to some sort of tar by increasing the temperature, smoking the oil rather than fogging it? No matter though, smoke, fog, oil, tar what-have-you, just cannot be all that good for the lungs.
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Post by rmc on Sept 27, 2019 15:08:42 GMT
wvengineer, well said. Therefore, smoke from a cigarette probably has less-massive particles, arranged in a less dense cloud (as a particulate group), and is delivered in shorter periods. And, ends up as tar rather than the oily substance vitamin E acetate provides when it is used on occasion. Even still, the smoke is not ideal. It 's just a touch better than the fog, apparently.
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 27, 2019 20:28:44 GMT
How can inhaling mass quantities of ANYTHING that leaves a sticky residue not be hazardous to your lungs?
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Post by mrfatso on Sept 27, 2019 21:17:38 GMT
How can inhaling mass quantities of ANYTHING that leaves a sticky residue not be hazardous to your lungs? Pretty much my take on it as well.
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Post by the light works on Sept 28, 2019 3:38:04 GMT
or a step further = lungs are meant to process oxygen - anything bigger is going to gum them up.
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 28, 2019 18:52:01 GMT
or a step further = lungs are meant to process oxygen - anything bigger is going to gum them up. But that’s too logical. No one’s going to believe that.
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 30, 2019 14:28:33 GMT
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Post by the light works on Sept 30, 2019 15:24:55 GMT
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 30, 2019 16:26:48 GMT
I didn’t do anything to check out the credentials of the article. I just thought it went with the conversation we’ve been having here. If the CDC actually did release this report, then it’s news. If they didn’t, then it’s just another fake story.
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Post by the light works on Sept 30, 2019 16:44:45 GMT
I didn’t do anything to check out the credentials of the article. I just thought it went with the conversation we’ve been having here. If the CDC actually did release this report, then it’s news. If they didn’t, then it’s just another fake story. the CDC released a report - he spun it to minimize the impact on the vaping industry in a "16% of the patients said they never vaped anything but approved factory made nicotine juice, but they must be lying because pot" sort of way.
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