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Post by silverdragon on Mar 29, 2018 7:22:18 GMT
Recycling Deposits on "Returnable" containers.
I know this exists in some countries.
But no so much here.
The idea has been raised to cut plastic waste that we re-introduce a deposit scheme on returnable containers.
Glass AND plastic, and Cans.
Here in Manchester, we have a separate recycling bin for recyclable containers, glass plastic and cans.
So they now want us to return stuff to the shop we bought it from for recycling...
Do we get a refund on Council Tax for the bins they charge us for emptying than now wont be emptied so much?.
And now what, we have to take our rubbish back to the supermarket to get it recycled there?.
Yes it I get my money back, I will be recycling that way, but, I want a refund for not using usual bins for recycling, because I am paying for that, and I wasnt assurance that this scheme isnt just another waste of public money.
But reason for raising the thread, is this a good idea or not?.
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Post by the light works on Mar 29, 2018 10:51:51 GMT
Recycling Deposits on "Returnable" containers. I know this exists in some countries. But no so much here. The idea has been raised to cut plastic waste that we re-introduce a deposit scheme on returnable containers. Glass AND plastic, and Cans. Here in Manchester, we have a separate recycling bin for recyclable containers, glass plastic and cans. So they now want us to return stuff to the shop we bought it from for recycling... Do we get a refund on Council Tax for the bins they charge us for emptying than now wont be emptied so much?. And now what, we have to take our rubbish back to the supermarket to get it recycled there?. Yes it I get my money back, I will be recycling that way, but, I want a refund for not using usual bins for recycling, because I am paying for that, and I wasnt assurance that this scheme isnt just another waste of public money. But reason for raising the thread, is this a good idea or not?. Oregon passed a mandatory deposit on beverage bottles in 1971 (beer and soda), and the primary reason for it was reducing litter. - because of the deposit, kids would pick up the bottles people threw out their car windows. this year it was expanded to cover nearly ALL single serving beverage bottles and cans, I haven't heard whether the recent expansion has reduced litter or not, but as with the original, the expansion was aimed at those people who don't bother doing the right thing without a direct incentive. - which may be of limited effectiveness, since many of those won't do the right thing WITH an incentive. (case in point, the last tenant, who put garbage in the recycling bin and deposit bottles in the garbage bin) as for the redemption process, if your country builds a redemption system from the ground up, you can probably do better than ours currently is. since ours started with collecting refillable bottles for return to the original supplier, it is still focused on determining if the store you are trying to redeem it at recognizes it as a product that store sells - which means the redemption machine must be programmed with every individual product, and must be able to read the product code off the label, and since the stores now host the machines with an outside group responsible for maintenance, the machines are poorly maintained, subject to breakdown, and the store doesn't really like "wasting" personnel on servicing the function. while the machine provider doesn't get any of the directed ire that the machines generate. so the questions would be: first, do you have the problem the deposit is intended to solve? second, will it solve that problem? third, will it create a bigger problem? were I in charge of our bottle bill, I would say that all bottles must have a second code label, which tells what the deposit amount is, and any retailer which sells beverages in deposit bottles must accept any deposit bottles regardless of what the product is. (with stores selling small volumes not being required to accept large volumes of empties) and then a central accounting department responsible for making sure that the deposit money was shifted so that nobody got stuck out-of-pocket if they end up redeeming more than they collect. - and then any other state which wished to collaborate could adopt the same deposit marker concept, and bottles sold in one state could be redeemed for the proper value in the other even if the deposit value was different. www.bottlebill.org/legislation/usa/history/orhis.htm |
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Post by wvengineer on Mar 30, 2018 3:22:31 GMT
The bottle deposit is an added cost tacked onto the price at the point of sale.
My understanding is that bottling companies have different product SKU numbers for ones sold in state with deposit laws. The idea being that some won't be able to by a bunch of bottles in Washington where they can get it cheaper with out the deposit, carry them over the border to Oregon and get a deposit that they never paid for. The computer reading them would be able to tell it was an out of state bottle and reject the refund. That does add logistical costs to the bottling company, so expect a cost increase.
My experience living in California and visiting family in Oregon where they have this type of deposit is that it is very in effective. The amount is so small that very few people will bother collecting and returning them for the credit. I think I did it once in the two years I lived in Cali. Just not worth the effort. At the end of the day, it amounts to a convenience tax for the state.
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Post by the light works on Mar 30, 2018 3:40:56 GMT
The bottle deposit is an added cost tacked onto the price at the point of sale. My understanding is that bottling companies have different product SKU numbers for ones sold in state with deposit laws. The idea being that some won't be able to by a bunch of bottles in Washington where they can get it cheaper with out the deposit, carry them over the border to Oregon and get a deposit that they never paid for. The computer reading them would be able to tell it was an out of state bottle and reject the refund. That does add logistical costs to the bottling company, so expect a cost increase. My experience living in California and visiting family in Oregon where they have this type of deposit is that it is very in effective. The amount is so small that very few people will bother collecting and returning them for the credit. I think I did it once in the two years I lived in Cali. Just not worth the effort. At the end of the day, it amounts to a convenience tax for the state. you are correct. bottles to be sold in oregon have a different SKU than bottles to be sold in other states. also the SKU may change for a product or a new product may be introduced, for which the machines may or may not get updated in a timely manner. (still waiting after two weeks for the updated SKU on Mrs TLW's diet pepsi) this is why I would like to see a second code on the bottle which identifies the value of the deposit, and is uniform for all bottles with that deposit. our deposit is now 10 cents per bottle, which means if I can get caught up we will be doing about $4.00 a week in deposits. our bigger towns now have independent redemption centers, but I'm not sure how they work. (logistically speaking I.E. they have the same machines stores do, but I don't know if they then have an automated cashier, or if they have a live employee paying out tickets. |
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Post by kharnynb on Mar 30, 2018 7:14:14 GMT
over here it's very effective, deposits are 20 cents per bottle, so it's absolutely worth collecting them.
even if people do throw them away outdoors, there's always kids or seniors collecting them for some money.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 30, 2018 7:42:51 GMT
Yes, No, Probably, in that order.
If you are a small business, maybe consider a "Ice cream vendor of the Mobile type", or ice cream van, does this now mean you will have to tow a separate recycling unit.
Obviously there will be a cut-off point on how small you need to be before you supply recycling facilities.
Cross-Contamination, will sellers of, for instance, Coke-a-cola refuse on principal to recycle Pepsi containers?.
Will certain stored refuse point blank to recycle containers not sold in their own store?.
What happens when the facility reaches "full".
Who pays for the Recycling collection costs?.
The last one, if you are a "Small village", maybe population less than 5,000, and thats on a busy weekend, it may be considered that you need no more than one collective recycling plant for the whole village.
Who pays the man-hours and maintenance costs to keep it running?.
And then, "How often"...
If a small population collection facility doesnt get full weekly, maybe its only emptied once per month.
"With the best intention", I know this because of where I stored my returnables as a Landlord, they start to "pong" a little...
[-I kept mine in an outside store house and washed them over if the smell got pervasive...]
Not everyone will wash out their containers, and the products inside will attract vermin, emit smell, and be messy after a while.
A Quick wash down with maybe ITFR detergent may cleanse the area, but you cant wash down all of the machinery?.
Go to your local Dump for a better idea of what I mean there, it still smells, whatever you try.
And then, how MUCH machinery?.
If say here in a busy suburb of Manchester, a large city, they only supply ONE recycling centre, and I have to queue "For hours" to get to do my recycling?..
And lastly, it has been suggested, the current idea of recycling, we keep recycling in outside bins.
Will there be a spate of people or even Kids, going through roadside rubbish bins searching for cash-cow containers to recycle?.
Not that that is a problem in its self if they do recycle, its more, will I be finding them doing that in my own garden and stealing my store of returnable I am intending to take back myself, and in the case of public rubbish bins, will they put back the non returnable rubbish they took out when they finish going through it?.
In the style of "how stupid can you be", a tale from my Family past, one of our lot was on duty in a public house doing cellar work, when the landlord was "going ape", in that he had discovered his store of bottled Pop had been raided.
Those bottles he sold often as "Outsales" as he was a merchant for bottled pop in the area?
Much of his stock had been stolen, the local Plod was in attendance, investigating.
Two days later, they turn up for work, and the landlord is still laughing...
The night before, two local urchins had turned up at the door with the claim "Dad has sent us back with his empties". A Bag full of bottles...
Yeah, the very bottles he had just had stolen....
Plod was summoned, and the lads questioned, the shed where they had taken their loot raided, to find buckets of Pop where the kids had drained off the pop to return the bottles, and several crates they had taken to carry the pop in.
The main problem is where will they place recycling machines, how many, who pays for that, and where does the recycling go next.
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Post by kharnynb on Mar 30, 2018 13:14:41 GMT
Small shops, ie. anything with 1 cashregister, don't need one here, and even bit bigger ones can ask dispensation.
All shops take all bottles here, so it doesn't matter what you return where.
plastic gets crushed and recycled anyway, glass gets packed in crates, shipped to a central warehouse, cleaned and resold to whoever wants it.
most bigger shops of the lidl/tesco variety might have 3-6 machines for returning to prevent queuing too much, though if you go on monday morning or friday evening, you might have to wait a bit while the people that go around and get all the bottles that are thrown away by drunks/youths are done.
I'm sorry, but it sounds a bit "whiny" the way i've seen people ask these questions in UK papers and news sites...it's not like it's something totally new, it's been in use for decades in most of europe...
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Post by the light works on Mar 30, 2018 14:52:11 GMT
here, nobody uses refillable glass, any more, so everything goes straight from the redemption corral to the recyclers. hence, no complaints about "contamination."
the only real problem I see here is that the machines are not well maintained, and they are not well engineered; so the store has to constantly send personnel who aren't trained in full machine maintenance to poke at them or to empty the collection bins.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 31, 2018 9:36:16 GMT
Its not new here either, we USED to do the returnable thing.
But we had things changed, and now, we have separate recycling bins, where we put our recycling, to be collected and sorted.
We PAY for that in our council tax rates.
We will not be getting a refund for those collection services, instead, we will still pay for that service, but will pay Extra for MORE recycling, that we now have to do ourselves?.
And this is because we do not have the infrastructure to return recyclables to the point of sale.
The whole point of the objections is based on "Who pays for all of this", and as we suspect it will be yet another burden on the tax payer, where we have seen public services decline and decline for years because of budget cuts, this, like HS2 Rail, is yet another BIG tax payer burden that we believe the country can not afford, and nobody wants anyway, and as we have a perfectly good recycling system that does return glass and plastic and tins to a recycling centre anyway, why "Fix" was isnt broke?.
I have three differing coloured bins already as well as the general non recyclable "grey" [you cant call it black any more?.. ] bin, and a trash collection system thats supposed to deal with recycling.
We get 4 different trash wagons per fortnight that are well used and they differ on the type of trash they collect, three of them are recycling.
Why therefore does it need to change?.
Do we not have a perfect system already?.
The whole point is why the need to change again?.
Its just another "stealth tax", because, even though there is a returnable deposit of say 10pence per item, which you will get back on recycling, you will still pay VAT on top of that, and you dont get a refund on that VAT.
YES, we DO need to recycle.
But for those of us who already do do that, how much more can we do, when some of it is stuff we never wanted in the first place?.
If I check through my "grey" black bin for the most common type of trash, it happens to be the stupid amount of packaging that is single use and NON recyclable plastic...
What we need most is a way to eliminate THAT, rather than try to fiddle with a system that so far is making far more recycled bundles of crushed plastic than we have technology to deal with in this country alone anyway.
Yep, that be true, we are exporting recycled plastic to places abroad that can deal with it better than we can at home.
We get so much collected recyclables here in UK, the places that do the recycling cant deal with the amount of recyclables generated.
Where is the investment in that technology?. Surely that is what we need more of?.
This isnt a whine at "we dont wanna change", this is based on a household in an area that has fully embraced recycling anyway, we do fill the recycling bins, and from the sounds of it on collection day when you can hear the rattle of recycled glass several streets away as the bins get emptied, and the amount of "Double size" recycling bins that I see on the streets, we recycle more than you would expect, because we are happy to do that anyway.
What we are questioning is, why do we need to recycle more, when a lot of the non-recyclable material single use plastic we never wanted in the first place?.
If there is to be change, what would be better, and if it is the generation of MORE recyclables than just single use non recyclable, than that is the finger on the pulse of the question we are asking.
Why can not the Non Recyclable waste be eliminated fully, make single use plastic out of the very stuff or bio-degradeable plastics that they make the food waste sacks on our recycling bins?.
Surely a plastic that makes good compost is better than non recyclable.
Or maybe return to Paper bags instead of plastic, that can go into the Compost bins instead.
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Post by the light works on Mar 31, 2018 14:42:28 GMT
Its not new here either, we USED to do the returnable thing. But we had things changed, and now, we have separate recycling bins, where we put our recycling, to be collected and sorted. We PAY for that in our council tax rates. We will not be getting a refund for those collection services, instead, we will still pay for that service, but will pay Extra for MORE recycling, that we now have to do ourselves?. And this is because we do not have the infrastructure to return recyclables to the point of sale. The whole point of the objections is based on "Who pays for all of this", and as we suspect it will be yet another burden on the tax payer, where we have seen public services decline and decline for years because of budget cuts, this, like HS2 Rail, is yet another BIG tax payer burden that we believe the country can not afford, and nobody wants anyway, and as we have a perfectly good recycling system that does return glass and plastic and tins to a recycling centre anyway, why "Fix" was isnt broke?. I have three differing coloured bins already as well as the general non recyclable "grey" [you cant call it black any more?.. ] bin, and a trash collection system thats supposed to deal with recycling. We get 4 different trash wagons per fortnight that are well used and they differ on the type of trash they collect, three of them are recycling. Why therefore does it need to change?. Do we not have a perfect system already?. The whole point is why the need to change again?. Its just another "stealth tax", because, even though there is a returnable deposit of say 10pence per item, which you will get back on recycling, you will still pay VAT on top of that, and you dont get a refund on that VAT. YES, we DO need to recycle. But for those of us who already do do that, how much more can we do, when some of it is stuff we never wanted in the first place?. If I check through my "grey" black bin for the most common type of trash, it happens to be the stupid amount of packaging that is single use and NON recyclable plastic... What we need most is a way to eliminate THAT, rather than try to fiddle with a system that so far is making far more recycled bundles of crushed plastic than we have technology to deal with in this country alone anyway. Yep, that be true, we are exporting recycled plastic to places abroad that can deal with it better than we can at home. We get so much collected recyclables here in UK, the places that do the recycling cant deal with the amount of recyclables generated. Where is the investment in that technology?. Surely that is what we need more of?. This isnt a whine at "we dont wanna change", this is based on a household in an area that has fully embraced recycling anyway, we do fill the recycling bins, and from the sounds of it on collection day when you can hear the rattle of recycled glass several streets away as the bins get emptied, and the amount of "Double size" recycling bins that I see on the streets, we recycle more than you would expect, because we are happy to do that anyway. What we are questioning is, why do we need to recycle more, when a lot of the non-recyclable material single use plastic we never wanted in the first place?. If there is to be change, what would be better, and if it is the generation of MORE recyclables than just single use non recyclable, than that is the finger on the pulse of the question we are asking. Why can not the Non Recyclable waste be eliminated fully, make single use plastic out of the very stuff or bio-degradeable plastics that they make the food waste sacks on our recycling bins?. Surely a plastic that makes good compost is better than non recyclable. Or maybe return to Paper bags instead of plastic, that can go into the Compost bins instead. if you already have good nationwide compliance, then it is probably not worth the bother. and I would guess that if they do implement it, it will probably use central collection at the tip. |
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 1, 2018 8:02:10 GMT
Ahhhh....now....
I have "extra information".
And this was undisclosed at the beginning, hence some confusion on my part.
There has been a LOT of chatter recently about single use coffee cups and the like, the amount of waste produced in City Centres, by "The lunch crowd".
They also go through a LOT of single use drinks bottles and single serving containers.
As it happens, there are now coffee shops that will give you a sizeable discount on your cup of coffee if you bring your own recycling mug, or one of them "Hot mugs" that keep the beverage warm with a sliding top to prevent spillage?.
But onwards to the single serving bottles of pop or cans that you get "Whilst out", and the heaps of trash created by a single days lunch in city centres.
It has been suggested that those who serve the lunch crowd should have a recycling machine that gives you vouchers to spend in shops should you return the containers where they came from.
A LOT of this is aimed at "single serving" containers.
And if this be true, for me, I am happy to oblige.
There are trash cans, but I have to admit, I have never ever seen trash cans that encourage recycling in either city centres or tourist hot spots?.
I put this as evidence because that small part dont half make a change. "Single use" containers.
And whats more, if it be the case, I am quite happy to remove any objection I have to more recycling, because this is recycling where there isnt any current recycling.
And "The lunch crowd" of city centres is something I go out of my way to avoid because of their lemming abilities.
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Post by the light works on Apr 1, 2018 14:56:14 GMT
Ahhhh....now.... I have "extra information". And this was undisclosed at the beginning, hence some confusion on my part. There has been a LOT of chatter recently about single use coffee cups and the like, the amount of waste produced in City Centres, by "The lunch crowd". They also go through a LOT of single use drinks bottles and single serving containers. As it happens, there are now coffee shops that will give you a sizeable discount on your cup of coffee if you bring your own recycling mug, or one of them "Hot mugs" that keep the beverage warm with a sliding top to prevent spillage?. But onwards to the single serving bottles of pop or cans that you get "Whilst out", and the heaps of trash created by a single days lunch in city centres. It has been suggested that those who serve the lunch crowd should have a recycling machine that gives you vouchers to spend in shops should you return the containers where they came from. A LOT of this is aimed at "single serving" containers. And if this be true, for me, I am happy to oblige. There are trash cans, but I have to admit, I have never ever seen trash cans that encourage recycling in either city centres or tourist hot spots?. I put this as evidence because that small part dont half make a change. "Single use" containers. And whats more, if it be the case, I am quite happy to remove any objection I have to more recycling, because this is recycling where there isnt any current recycling. And "The lunch crowd" of city centres is something I go out of my way to avoid because of their lemming abilities. there you go: identification of a problem and a proposal of something with the intention of fixing the problem. |
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