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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2019 15:38:50 GMT
for those who haven't read any of the books, in David Weber's "honorverse," high speed space travel involves manipulation of artificial gravity. FTL is accomplished by breaking the laws of physics, so there is probably little benefit in addressing that - his universe, his rules, and all that. but his normal space drive would seem to be worth discussing.
the basics of it is that an impeller driven ship (simple ships use reaction thrusters and reaction thrusters are used for low speed maneuvering or in close quarters) projects "stress bands" of artificial gravity above and below the ship, and these "stress bands" react either with the material of the ship, or the gravity projection equipment to pull the ship forward. the side effect of this drive method is that the "wedge" of gravitational stress bends is essentially impenetrable by projectile or energy weapons. the wedge is paired with inertial compensators onboard the vessels that provide artificial gravity and allow the ships to accelerate at rates expressed as tens or hundreds of gravities. (ranges for space combat are expressed as light minutes for missile range and light seconds or less for energy range)
assuming we have the capability to utilize projected artificial gravity in this manner, what sort of formula would you use to calculate how thick and how intense such a gravity wave would be? I would guess the inside surface would appear black, but how would the exterior appear?
in addition, one of the short range energy weapons used is the graser - a focused gravity weapon. would that be a beam of intense gravity drawing matter into itself or a beam of focused gravity drawing matter towards the weapon?
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 13, 2019 16:25:09 GMT
for those who haven't read any of the books, in David Weber's "honorverse," high speed space travel involves manipulation of artificial gravity. FTL is accomplished by breaking the laws of physics, so there is probably little benefit in addressing that - his universe, his rules, and all that. but his normal space drive would seem to be worth discussing. the basics of it is that an impeller driven ship (simple ships use reaction thrusters and reaction thrusters are used for low speed maneuvering or in close quarters) projects "stress bands" of artificial gravity above and below the ship, and these "stress bands" react either with the material of the ship, or the gravity projection equipment to pull the ship forward. the side effect of this drive method is that the "wedge" of gravitational stress bends is essentially impenetrable by projectile or energy weapons. the wedge is paired with inertial compensators onboard the vessels that provide artificial gravity and allow the ships to accelerate at rates expressed as tens or hundreds of gravities. (ranges for space combat are expressed as light minutes for missile range and light seconds or less for energy range) assuming we have the capability to utilize projected artificial gravity in this manner, what sort of formula would you use to calculate how thick and how intense such a gravity wave would be? I would guess the inside surface would appear black, but how would the exterior appear? in addition, one of the short range energy weapons used is the graser - a focused gravity weapon. would that be a beam of intense gravity drawing matter into itself or a beam of focused gravity drawing matter towards the weapon? Problem is, gravitational waves are limited to traveling at the speed of light, not FTL. So if you had two gravitational sources pushing and pulling a space craft, the fastest it could theoretically reach is light speed. Even large black holes with massive gravitational fields do not pull things in faster than the speed of light. But like you said, it's science fiction. Weber's Universe and Weber's rules. He can create any equations he wants. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2019 16:45:05 GMT
for those who haven't read any of the books, in David Weber's "honorverse," high speed space travel involves manipulation of artificial gravity. FTL is accomplished by breaking the laws of physics, so there is probably little benefit in addressing that - his universe, his rules, and all that. but his normal space drive would seem to be worth discussing. the basics of it is that an impeller driven ship (simple ships use reaction thrusters and reaction thrusters are used for low speed maneuvering or in close quarters) projects "stress bands" of artificial gravity above and below the ship, and these "stress bands" react either with the material of the ship, or the gravity projection equipment to pull the ship forward. the side effect of this drive method is that the "wedge" of gravitational stress bends is essentially impenetrable by projectile or energy weapons. the wedge is paired with inertial compensators onboard the vessels that provide artificial gravity and allow the ships to accelerate at rates expressed as tens or hundreds of gravities. (ranges for space combat are expressed as light minutes for missile range and light seconds or less for energy range) assuming we have the capability to utilize projected artificial gravity in this manner, what sort of formula would you use to calculate how thick and how intense such a gravity wave would be? I would guess the inside surface would appear black, but how would the exterior appear? in addition, one of the short range energy weapons used is the graser - a focused gravity weapon. would that be a beam of intense gravity drawing matter into itself or a beam of focused gravity drawing matter towards the weapon? Problem is, gravitational waves are limited to traveling at the speed of light, not FTL. So if you had two gravitational sources pushing and pulling a space craft, the fastest it could theoretically reach is light speed. Even large black holes with massive gravitational fields do not pull things in faster than the speed of light. But like you said, it's science fiction. Weber's Universe and Weber's rules. He can create any equations he wants. like I said, FTL is accomplished by breaking the laws of physics. the impeller drive is sublight, while FTL is accomplished in hyperspace or via wormhole. Weber's hyperspace is essentially a distance compression model - you can't go faster in hyperspace, but locations are closer together. the one thing he does do that may or may not violate real space physics is that gravity propagates faster than light in his universe. I.E. you can detect an artificial gravity distortion more quickly than you can detect a radio wave from the same source. - but that is not a case of gravity moving something faster than light - just fluctuations in gravity being detectable with no latency. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 13, 2019 19:00:14 GMT
Problem is, gravitational waves are limited to traveling at the speed of light, not FTL. So if you had two gravitational sources pushing and pulling a space craft, the fastest it could theoretically reach is light speed. Even large black holes with massive gravitational fields do not pull things in faster than the speed of light. But like you said, it's science fiction. Weber's Universe and Weber's rules. He can create any equations he wants. like I said, FTL is accomplished by breaking the laws of physics. the impeller drive is sublight, while FTL is accomplished in hyperspace or via wormhole. Weber's hyperspace is essentially a distance compression model - you can't go faster in hyperspace, but locations are closer together. the one thing he does do that may or may not violate real space physics is that gravity propagates faster than light in his universe. I.E. you can detect an artificial gravity distortion more quickly than you can detect a radio wave from the same source. - but that is not a case of gravity moving something faster than light - just fluctuations in gravity being detectable with no latency. Yes, in the real universe, we know that grav waves travel at the same speed as light. We know this because now that we have a reliable means of detecting them, astronomers have seen a far off event happen and detected the gravitational waves from it at the same time they saw it. But I like the idea of bending or folding space to make the distances shorter. This idea is not new in Sci-Fi, but still an interesting one. I'll have to check out some of Weber's stories. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2019 19:30:42 GMT
like I said, FTL is accomplished by breaking the laws of physics. the impeller drive is sublight, while FTL is accomplished in hyperspace or via wormhole. Weber's hyperspace is essentially a distance compression model - you can't go faster in hyperspace, but locations are closer together. the one thing he does do that may or may not violate real space physics is that gravity propagates faster than light in his universe. I.E. you can detect an artificial gravity distortion more quickly than you can detect a radio wave from the same source. - but that is not a case of gravity moving something faster than light - just fluctuations in gravity being detectable with no latency. Yes, in the real universe, we know that grav waves travel at the same speed as light. We know this because now that we have a reliable means of detecting them, astronomers have seen a far off event happen and detected the gravitational waves from it at the same time they saw it. But I like the idea of bending or folding space to make the distances shorter. This idea is not new in Sci-Fi, but still an interesting one. I'll have to check out some of Weber's stories. if you like military sci fi and naval strategy, you will probably like his stuff. his hyperspace is less folding space and more alternate realities - mixed with enough hazards to keep it from being a magic transit system. (as in do it wrong and maybe there will be debris to find - and it STILL takes time. that is one of the best points of his combat stories - everything takes time and his heroes and villains have to deal with that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorverse |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 13, 2019 20:27:42 GMT
Yes, in the real universe, we know that grav waves travel at the same speed as light. We know this because now that we have a reliable means of detecting them, astronomers have seen a far off event happen and detected the gravitational waves from it at the same time they saw it. But I like the idea of bending or folding space to make the distances shorter. This idea is not new in Sci-Fi, but still an interesting one. I'll have to check out some of Weber's stories. if you like military sci fi and naval strategy, you will probably like his stuff. his hyperspace is less folding space and more alternate realities - mixed with enough hazards to keep it from being a magic transit system. (as in do it wrong and maybe there will be debris to find - and it STILL takes time. that is one of the best points of his combat stories - everything takes time and his heroes and villains have to deal with that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HonorverseI also find time to be the major factor in me not getting my projects done. If only we could stop time, or at least slow it down a little. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2019 20:45:46 GMT
if you like military sci fi and naval strategy, you will probably like his stuff. his hyperspace is less folding space and more alternate realities - mixed with enough hazards to keep it from being a magic transit system. (as in do it wrong and maybe there will be debris to find - and it STILL takes time. that is one of the best points of his combat stories - everything takes time and his heroes and villains have to deal with that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HonorverseI also find time to be the major factor in me not getting my projects done. If only we could stop time, or at least slow it down a little. and it's been going faster and faster. we really need to have someone look into making sure the atomic clock isn't running fast. |
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Post by mrfatso on Feb 13, 2019 22:21:28 GMT
Yes, in the real universe, we know that grav waves travel at the same speed as light. We know this because now that we have a reliable means of detecting them, astronomers have seen a far off event happen and detected the gravitational waves from it at the same time they saw it. But I like the idea of bending or folding space to make the distances shorter. This idea is not new in Sci-Fi, but still an interesting one. I'll have to check out some of Weber's stories. if you like military sci fi and naval strategy, you will probably like his stuff. his hyperspace is less folding space and more alternate realities - mixed with enough hazards to keep it from being a magic transit system. (as in do it wrong and maybe there will be debris to find - and it STILL takes time. that is one of the best points of his combat stories - everything takes time and his heroes and villains have to deal with that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HonorverseOne side effect of the gravity impeller drive is that the top and bottom of ships in the honorverse are invunerable to arrack meaning that combat is similar to Napoleonic broadsides, except with sub light missles and energy weapons. The Safehold series is also intresting. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SafeholdEarth and its colonies have been destroyed by an Alien race that is more advanced than it who take the crush any rivals before they can compete with us policy to heart, except for one far flung colony. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2019 22:31:00 GMT
if you like military sci fi and naval strategy, you will probably like his stuff. his hyperspace is less folding space and more alternate realities - mixed with enough hazards to keep it from being a magic transit system. (as in do it wrong and maybe there will be debris to find - and it STILL takes time. that is one of the best points of his combat stories - everything takes time and his heroes and villains have to deal with that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HonorverseOne side effect of the gravity impeller drive is that the top and bottom of ships in the honorverse are invunerable to arrack meaning that combat is similar to Napoleonic broadsides, except with sub light missles and energy weapons. the wiki actually mentions that he used the conflict between great britain and Napoleon's France as inspiration for his storyline. but yes, one of my technical questions is how you would calculate how thick and how powerful (how much gravity) the wedge would have to be to stop an X-ray laser. |
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Post by mrfatso on Feb 13, 2019 22:38:30 GMT
One side effect of the gravity impeller drive is that the top and bottom of ships in the honorverse are invunerable to arrack meaning that combat is similar to Napoleonic broadsides, except with sub light missles and energy weapons. the wiki actually mentions that he used the conflict between great britain and Napoleon's France as inspiration for his storyline. Well yes the Star Kingdom of Manticore is Great Britain and The Tepublic of Haven is France, and if you know your Napoleonic naval stories you can also see some parallels. In "On Basillisk Station" the HMS Fearless is equipped entirely with Grav Lances devestating short range weapons as part of an experiment by the Admirality,,similarly there is an older book I think by Dudley Pope were his captain is given command of a ship mainly armed with Carronades. Both face the same problem once close they can wreck any opponent but getting close enough means braving a ltnof enemy fire without reply. But with regard X-Ray lasers it's not so mch stopping them bending the fabric of space time s they cannot hit, the reality of which it would take masses the equivalent of a blackholevto achieve. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2019 22:48:42 GMT
for military sci-fi, David Drake's "Hammer's Slammers" stories are also interesting.
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2019 22:52:53 GMT
the wiki actually mentions that he used the conflict between great britain and Napoleon's France as inspiration for his storyline. Well yes the Star Kingdom of Manticore is Great Britain and The Tepublic of Haven is France, and if you know your Napoleonic naval stories you can also see some parallels. In "On Basillisk Station" the HMS Fearless is equipped entirely with Grav Lances devestating short range weapons as part of an experiment by the Admirality,,similarly there is an older book I think by Dudley Pope were his captain is given command of a ship mainly armed with Carronades. Both face the same problem once close they can wreck any opponent but getting close enough means braving a ltnof enemy fire without reply. reminds me. Midshipwizard Halycon Blythe is another of the same type of story, but set in a fantasy world. |
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Post by OziRiS on Feb 20, 2019 6:44:26 GMT
But with regard X-Ray lasers it's not so mch stopping them bending the fabric of space time s they cannot hit, the reality of which it would take masses the equivalent of a blackholevto achieve. I was thinking something along the same lines. That you wouldn't actually be physically deflecting the X-rays, but rather using a form of warp drive to bend space and make them follow the curvature around and away from you. You know, theoretically, if your gravitational field was strong enough to distort space-time just right, you could make the X-rays complete half an orbit around the ship and send them back in the direction they came from  |
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Post by the light works on Feb 20, 2019 15:13:25 GMT
But with regard X-Ray lasers it's not so mch stopping them bending the fabric of space time s they cannot hit, the reality of which it would take masses the equivalent of a blackholevto achieve. I was thinking something along the same lines. That you wouldn't actually be physically deflecting the X-rays, but rather using a form of warp drive to bend space and make them follow the curvature around and away from you. You know, theoretically, if your gravitational field was strong enough to distort space-time just right, you could make the X-rays complete half an orbit around the ship and send them back in the direction they came from I missed Mrfatso's comment the first time around. I think the story point is that the internal gravity of the wedge is so great that it bends the light, which yes, does require the equivalent gravity of a black hole to achieve. - it is also mentioned that the wedge interferes with sensors, so it isn't a magic shield. |
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Post by mrfatso on Feb 20, 2019 17:59:08 GMT
I was thinking something along the same lines. That you wouldn't actually be physically deflecting the X-rays, but rather using a form of warp drive to bend space and make them follow the curvature around and away from you. You know, theoretically, if your gravitational field was strong enough to distort space-time just right, you could make the X-rays complete half an orbit around the ship and send them back in the direction they came from I missed Mrfatso's comment the first time around. I think the story point is that the internal gravity of the wedge is so great that it bends the light, which yes, does require the equivalent gravity of a black hole to achieve. - it is also mentioned that the wedge interferes with sensors, so it isn't a magic shield. But if the gravity bands went all they way around the ship you could not get broadsides in space, which is hat the author wanted.  |
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Post by the light works on Feb 20, 2019 18:13:28 GMT
I missed Mrfatso's comment the first time around. I think the story point is that the internal gravity of the wedge is so great that it bends the light, which yes, does require the equivalent gravity of a black hole to achieve. - it is also mentioned that the wedge interferes with sensors, so it isn't a magic shield. But if the gravity bands went all they way around the ship you could not get broadsides in space, which is hat the author wanted. and he does specifically mention that the wedge only protects the top and bottom, while weaker sidewalls attempt to protect the sides, and the front and back are wide open to a "down the throat" or an "up the kilt" shot. I beleive, though I can't cite references, it is also impossible to fire through the wedge - which would support such extreme gravity that tidal forces would tear apart any missile or focused energy beam. |
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