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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 5, 2013 17:07:26 GMT
I picked this up when reading about a major sea battle involving King Olaf Tryggvason of Norway (995-1000), the story being in the Vikings Saga's.
The part(s) that caught my interest were these;
During the battle one of Olaf's best archers was up in the rigging. His counterpart on one of the opposing ships was ordered to take care of the guy who was taking out warriors with every shot. The return fire cut the archers bowstring, with such an audible 'crack' that Olaf (who was on the deck) asked what it was. (The reply was something along the lines of 'The sceptre of Norway falling from your grasp'.)
This raises three questions to me.
1; Is such a shot remotely possible?
2; Could a presumably standard arrow cut a bowstring that cleanly?
3; Could/would a bowstring that is cut in such a way create such a loud noise that you could hear it some 40-50 feet away in the middle of a major battle? (No cannons were used in the battle)
The second part relates to Olaf himself. Apparently rather than be captured - he was rather unpopular due to his forcing Christianity on Norway at spear point - he jumped over the side of his ship. The question here is if he could have survived this and managed to swim to shore - he would have been wearing armour.
Although the accepted wisdom here would be 'no', there were continual rumours about his having survived for some 40 odd years afterwards - I guess it would make him the Viking Elvis, although I have no idea if he could sing. Possible? I'm not sure myself. Certainly the idea that jumping into water wearing armour is an automatic death sentence is hardly new, but then there are many myths about armour than those who wear and use it today have long since busted - I'm wondering if swimming in such armour might not be one of them.
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Post by the light works on Dec 6, 2013 0:18:35 GMT
a few points: first, the bowstring part is very testable; and subject to the same caveat that the Lee Harvey Oswald marksmanship chalenge is subject to: "is it possible to miss your target at (x) range?" - because you KNOW the archer was not aiming at the bowstring.
as for swimming in armor: it is possible to swim short distances in armor, but tiring. we should also, however, explore the potential to get the armor off in enough of a hurry that only the armor goes to Daffyd Johannsen's locker.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 6, 2013 1:09:56 GMT
You know I get the feeling that MB like the sort of myths that have a story attached to them - rather than 'can you' or 'I heard' etc. After all they have to 'sell' the myth by being able to make it part of a story at the start of the episode. This might explain why they've tended to go towards 'movie' myths, which are by definition part of a larger story* and come with visuals, even if said visuals have to come from an artists pen rather than directly from the film in question.
Norse mythology, and more specifically the Viking Saga's, were the ancient version of movies - and seem to be more 'entertaining' than, say, the stories the Greeks or Roman's gave us (not least because the Saga's don't concern themselves exclusively with Gods or Demi-Gods.) This means that any myths taken from there might prove ideal for MB - something that didn't occur to me when I picked up this story and posted it.
I'm wondering if anyone on the board happens to know the Viking Saga's, have a copy or knows someone who does. Because to me this could be a large untapped source of myths for the show, not least because it seems the Norse were far more interested in stories of heroic action than what their gods were up to**. And many of those stories do seem to have been very heavily based on real events and people - far more than the average Hollywood film that says it is 'based on a true story'***
(*Unless your talking about a Michael Bay film where the 'story' is simply moving characters to the location of the next series of big explosions...)
(**In general Norse Gods seem to have spent most of their time either killing something or trying to find something to kill. As opposed to the Greek and Roman Gods who seem to have spent most of their time in a very bad soap opera where everyone ends up having children with everyone else.)
(***Translation of the Hollywood phrase 'Based on a True Story'; We only changed the names of those people who would have sued us for millions.)
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Post by the light works on Dec 6, 2013 1:17:40 GMT
that is definitely a factor (actions of actual people rather than magical actions of demigods)
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Post by the light works on Dec 6, 2013 15:03:01 GMT
Seems on the question of the bow, they need to create an audio profile of a period bow in its natural habitat. that would be necessary in order to scientifically determine whether the sound of the bowstring breaking is different from the sound of it firing.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 8, 2013 9:43:11 GMT
I have done a golf "Hole in one"..., es, such a shot, with luck, is possible. The arrows were armour piercing.... yes, again, with luck it is possible to cut "Cat-Gut" strings. Twang?... I have had guitar strings on electric guitars high tension go, and they dont make that much noise.... In the heat of a battle, on a noisy high sea, I suggest no, you wouldnt hear the snap. You may hear the slap as the now loose bowstring slaps something?.... But from that far?... must have very good hearing.... Swimming in Armour. North sea was it?... and the temp there is just about bloody cold that yer privates do an Icelandic sunset and retreat.... Swim in water THAT cold?... The shock alone would knock you out. Also, COULD he swim?... It is "Legend" that many of the seafaring people of our own seafaring nation (UK) did not swim at all. It is also legend that many of them preferred to wear the heavy armour "On ship" in order to weigh them down, such that the death would be swift and painless.....(Relatively) I hear version of the same legend... The walking on Water bit.... It seams that this has been utilised many times, that someone jumped ship and "Walked ashore"... However, later investigations have shown the distinct possibility of a sandbank at low tide in the near proximity of the legends place of happening?... such as Goodwin Sands was close to one legend I hear. Is Norse myth and legend along the same lines?... I think I may have a book along that subject matter I can get hold of.... It was lent out to someone I know who will take care of it, I will see if it can be returned. Whilst you are waiting, Wikipedia has some interesting starting points here?.... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythologyen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_sagas.... Quite a few bits there for perusal. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 8, 2013 16:35:32 GMT
I, on the other hand, got to the point I could easily recognize the sound of a broken guitar string. not because it is loud, but because it is different.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 9, 2013 13:34:03 GMT
More likely the Baltic, as the battle included a fleet from Sweden. It also seems that the battle took place in mid to late summer, since Olaf was returning to Norway and Galleys/longboats did not put to sea in the winter. Not from what I can tell, in fact it seems that the Vikings used hunting-style arrow heads. Besides which bodkin-type arrows would probably have been largely useless given that plate armour wasn't used. There is a (short) online version of the myth here; www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_bow.htmThis clearly differs slightly from the version I ran across, either due to translation differences or just as likely that the book altered the story to sound more impressive. The link does include another similar story; Of course that doesn't indicate how the string was cut. No, although it seems that 'Saga's' is confusingly used for both stories about the legendary Viking Kings and those about the Norse Gods. Stories about the Gods are by definition supernatural, and therefore unsuitable. Stories about the Viking Kings are a different matter, as these seem to have been based far more in 'reality' - recall that when they were originally being sung the listeners would have been very familiar with the arms, armour, ships and way battles were fought. So it is logical to assume that while a degree of hyperbole would have crept in, the basic events were most likely fairly realistic. After all these were stories about mortals not Gods. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 10, 2013 7:43:38 GMT
Oh, THAT type of saga...
The origin of "Folk music", as in, before people could read and write, History being told in Song, as it was the only way of being able to pass history along in a way it could be remembered...
Ok I will research on that.
And yes, this is also the origins of "Jesters", or the one with the Lute in Robin Hood stories....
The origin of ANY reference of "We will er remembered in song" from modern movies of that time.
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Post by the light works on Dec 10, 2013 15:19:52 GMT
Oh, THAT type of saga... The origin of "Folk music", as in, before people could read and write, History being told in Song, as it was the only way of being able to pass history along in a way it could be remembered... Ok I will research on that. And yes, this is also the origins of "Jesters", or the one with the Lute in Robin Hood stories.... The origin of ANY reference of "We will er remembered in song" from modern movies of that time. the period equivalent of "gonna see that on memebase" |
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 10, 2013 16:45:00 GMT
Thanks.
From what little reading I've had time for, it seems that the saga's were originally the Viking version of TV. Not a great deal to do in Norway in the middle of winter, so fathers used to sing to their children and wives about legendary kings (and the gods). It also seems that these stories were VERY well known, as during the summer Skelds (sp?) would roam the land singing the sagas for workers, and if/when the Skeld needed to take a break someone in the crowd would jump up and take over for a while. This also seems to indicate that the tales were consistent between different locations, so the details probably couldn't have been changed too much lest people complain. Any major hyperbole probably came from the original teller, who most likely did make minor alterations to new stories to make them more suitable for the audience. After a certain length of time, and the spread of the story, the details would probably have become fixed as too many people would know the story to have got away with any major changes. A modern equivalent might be the origin story of Superman or Spiderman - those have become so well known that certain elements just can't be changed with major complaints - Superman comes from the Planet Krypton, and god help anyone who tries to change that. Other elements could and are changed in light of what the audience will accept - So Spiderman in his recent incarnations on screen was not bitten by a radioactive spider but by a genetically engineered spider, but Uncle Ben always dies.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 11, 2013 7:59:32 GMT
I can get individual sagas as retold in one or two different places, but as yet, no definitive database. This link www.bbc.co.uk/schoolradio/subjects/music/vikings takes up the first three pages of google... its a KIDS project.. then follows a series of badly sung folk music by groups claiming to be the original and only Viking singers. I think I may have more luck with a library..... |
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 11, 2013 10:11:44 GMT
Yeah, I have a HUGE 'coffee table'* book that has some of the stories in it. But this is a book about mythology so deals with the Norse gods rather than the more 'mortal' based tales.
(*I call it a coffee table book as it about the right size to be a small table.)
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 12, 2013 7:40:39 GMT
Ya mean it sank into the floor because of the weight of all the (stuff) on top?...
I have one of them....
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