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Post by the light works on Apr 3, 2014 3:01:16 GMT
...When fired, it makes a distinctive sound"
but does it, really? Many stories use a hero recognizing the sound of a gun as a plot point - but are guns that distinctive?
this came to mind as an extension of the musical explosives concept - but it is far enough different I felt it merited its own thread.
in short - can an experienced listener identify a gun by sound alone?
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Post by memeengine on Apr 3, 2014 6:00:09 GMT
I think it's going to be a case of "it depends". There are some guns with a distinctive sound during sustained fire (especially those with a high cyclic rate) such as the German MG34/MG42 machine guns or the M134 minigun. However, I think you'd find it harder with a single shot from guns of a similar type, such as a couple of 9mm handguns from different manufacturers. After all, a gunshot is loud and most people's hearing will simply be overloaded with the sudden "BANG!" to really process the sound.
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Post by the light works on Apr 3, 2014 6:50:50 GMT
I think it's going to be a case of "it depends". There are some guns with a distinctive sound during sustained fire (especially those with a high cyclic rate) such as the German MG34/MG42 machine guns or the M134 minigun. However, I think you'd find it harder with a single shot from guns of a similar type, such as a couple of 9mm handguns from different manufacturers. After all, a gunshot is loud and most people's hearing will simply be overloaded with the sudden "BANG!" to really process the sound. yeah - a minigun is pretty hard to mistake - though some sound effects guys still get it wrong. I'd say if it gets tested, test all rates of fire - there is a little to be said for recognizing types of guns - I played paintball when I was younger and we had 4 types of paintguns, and we could distinguish between them; (/62 cal single shot pistol, .50 cal revolver, .357 cal SMG, and later a .62 cal carbine.) using both the sound of the discharge and the rate of fire, together. |
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Post by OziRiS on Apr 3, 2014 8:00:15 GMT
Movies and TV shows often go down this road, either basing a plot on someone being able to tell from a distance that a gun was in fact fired and the sound couldn't have been from anything else or the other way around where a gun was fired, but the sound was drowned out by popping balloons, clattering tools from a construction site nearby or something similar.
I've been a professional soldier for 5 years with two trips to Iraq under my belt and I've been with the Danish Home Guard for almost 9 years and I have to admit that even though I've spent plenty of time around guns of different makes, models and calibers, I can still have my doubts sometimes when someone lights some fireworks or whatever. Most of the time when I dismiss something that sounds like a gunshot, it's not because of the sound but because of the context. If the "shot" rings out at 4 in the afternoon in a small provincial city of a country that's more afraid of guns than deer on the second day of hunting season, then the odds of that "shot" coming from a gun are pretty much slim to none. I can't be sure it's not a gunshot, since it sounds that way, but there's a more than fair chance it's something else.
So, what's the more plausible storyline for TV and movies?
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Post by Cybermortis on Apr 3, 2014 9:16:31 GMT
They often have to adjust the rate of fire for miniguns so the individual shots can be distinguished - which is what they had to do with the minigun used on Terminator 2.
We should probably also consider that guns used on film are usually modified and firing blanks. I'm guessing that this might alter the sound produced when they are fired.
Last of all a lot of what we hear on film and TV doesn't come from filming the scene in question, but was re-dubbed/recorded during post-production. (In the case of the actors, lines can be obscured by other sounds in the background.) Since firing guns on sound stages is usually frowned on, even if they are using blanks, they simply use pre-recorded gunfire from a large collection of recorded sounds. Since the sound engineers are unlikely to be firearms experts (the same goes for most viewers) and the tapes in question are probably identified with rather generic titles (such as 'Machine Gun', rather than say M-60 machine gun) you'll get situations where the sounds they use come from a different weapon to the one seen on screen.
They might also decide to replace the real sound with something that is more familiar or impressive than the real version. Which is why handguns on screen can sometimes produce a sound more in keeping with an anti-tank rifle.
As to the real world. My impression is that the distinctive sound from a firearm comes from the action of the gun more than it does from the round itself. Although I can see two rifles with different muzzle velocities and different sized rounds producing different sounds when fired.
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Post by the light works on Apr 3, 2014 15:55:01 GMT
They often have to adjust the rate of fire for miniguns so the individual shots can be distinguished - which is what they had to do with the minigun used on Terminator 2. We should probably also consider that guns used on film are usually modified and firing blanks. I'm guessing that this might alter the sound produced when they are fired. Last of all a lot of what we hear on film and TV doesn't come from filming the scene in question, but was re-dubbed/recorded during post-production. (In the case of the actors, lines can be obscured by other sounds in the background.) Since firing guns on sound stages is usually frowned on, even if they are using blanks, they simply use pre-recorded gunfire from a large collection of recorded sounds. Since the sound engineers are unlikely to be firearms experts (the same goes for most viewers) and the tapes in question are probably identified with rather generic titles (such as 'Machine Gun', rather than say M-60 machine gun) you'll get situations where the sounds they use come from a different weapon to the one seen on screen. They might also decide to replace the real sound with something that is more familiar or impressive than the real version. Which is why handguns on screen can sometimes produce a sound more in keeping with an anti-tank rifle. As to the real world. My impression is that the distinctive sound from a firearm comes from the action of the gun more than it does from the round itself. Although I can see two rifles with different muzzle velocities and different sized rounds producing different sounds when fired. and I am, of course, referring to the cases where someone fires a minigun, and the sound effects department dub in the sound of an M-2. |
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Post by memeengine on Apr 3, 2014 17:16:56 GMT
Something else to consider, which was touched on by OziRiS, is that the sound of the shot will probably be affected by the environment in which it occurs. I'd imagine that a shot in an inner city area (with lots of sonically reflective surfaces) would sound different to the same weapon being fired in a suburban street or out in a forest.
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Post by the light works on Apr 3, 2014 17:57:56 GMT
Something else to consider, which was touched on by OziRiS, is that the sound of the shot will probably be affected by the environment in which it occurs. I'd imagine that a shot in an inner city area (with lots of sonically reflective surfaces) would sound different to the same weapon being fired in a suburban street or out in a forest. this is true - and probably not a factor they will be able to work with at all. I'm seeing two testing options. cold testing where the expert volunteer comes in and tries to guess the guns from behind a barrier. or testing where the team tries to memorize the different guns in the test (from a small distinct selection) and then identify them by sound. For example, in one novelization from Bonanza, one of the characters recognizes the sound of a Winchester and knows something is wrong because they don't have any Winchesters on the ranch - all rifles being Winchesters in that storyline. (not sure what they hunted with) |
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Post by Cybermortis on Apr 3, 2014 18:17:12 GMT
{Moved to Military Myths in the show ideas board}
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Post by OziRiS on Apr 3, 2014 21:24:30 GMT
Something else to consider, which was touched on by OziRiS, is that the sound of the shot will probably be affected by the environment in which it occurs. I'd imagine that a shot in an inner city area (with lots of sonically reflective surfaces) would sound different to the same weapon being fired in a suburban street or out in a forest. And, as I said, that same environment may also make other noises sound like gunshots when they're really produced by something else. I once heard the lid on one of those large fiberglass garbage containers being slammed in an alley that I would have sworn was a gunshot (9mm or smaller) if I'd been in Baghdad. I only found out what had made the sound because the guy had multiple bags he needed to get rid of and was putting in another one and slammed it again as I passed the alley. When I was directly in front of the entrance to the alley it sounded a lot different than it did when I was about 50 feet away from it. I'm guessing the walls and wind direction distorted the sound enough for me to make the mistake. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Apr 10, 2014 5:01:32 GMT
Environmental conditions and PROXIMITY to the shooting make a difference.
If there is nothing substantial, such as buildings between me and the gunfire and I'm within say 500 meters, I can easily identify a M16, AK47/AKM, M2, M60 and so on. Standard length barrels firing standard loaded ammunition, make their own consistent and distinct sounds, coupled with distinctive rates of fire.
Out hunting during deer season, or just being outside during any hunting season, I can tell the difference between rifle fire, shotgun fire and muzzleloader fire as they all sound different due to differences in typical bore sizes and powder burn rates, between the different powders used.
Pistol shots much over a hundred yards just become "pistol shots" and are hard to tell apart, unless one is semi auto and the other a magnum revolver .
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 11, 2014 20:55:29 GMT
I can discern the sound of a Ducati from a mile away.
Not just that, I can tell if its running rough from about the same distance....
I can even tell if a ford escort MK1 is running cold, as the sound of the engine with a choke on is "Different"
I can tell a .303 from a 7.62 on a range.
Could a human ear get even more discerning?....
I have severe problems when people sing out of tune on those talent-factor TV shows, its almost a physical pain I feel, so why cant someone hear a gun "out of tune", well, I cant see why not?....
Could I teach a computer to tell what makes the bang?.....
If they can recognise human speech, and tell one human from another, that is going to be easy.
And human hearing is more sensitive.
We know how to block out and ignore background noise....
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Post by the light works on Apr 12, 2014 1:19:17 GMT
I can discern the sound of a Ducati from a mile away. Not just that, I can tell if its running rough from about the same distance.... I can even tell if a ford escort MK1 is running cold, as the sound of the engine with a choke on is "Different" I can tell a .303 from a 7.62 on a range. Could a human ear get even more discerning?.... I have severe problems when people sing out of tune on those talent-factor TV shows, its almost a physical pain I feel, so why cant someone hear a gun "out of tune", well, I cant see why not?.... Could I teach a computer to tell what makes the bang?..... If they can recognise human speech, and tell one human from another, that is going to be easy. And human hearing is more sensitive. We know how to block out and ignore background noise.... I am virtually tone deaf - so when I say someone is off key, it means something. |
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Post by oldcodger on Apr 12, 2014 18:29:39 GMT
They often have to adjust the rate of fire for miniguns so the individual shots can be distinguished - which is what they had to do with the minigun used on Terminator 2. We should probably also consider that guns used on film are usually modified and firing blanks. I'm guessing that this might alter the sound produced when they are fired. Last of all a lot of what we hear on film and TV doesn't come from filming the scene in question, but was re-dubbed/recorded during post-production. (In the case of the actors, lines can be obscured by other sounds in the background.) Since firing guns on sound stages is usually frowned on, even if they are using blanks, they simply use pre-recorded gunfire from a large collection of recorded sounds. Since the sound engineers are unlikely to be firearms experts (the same goes for most viewers) and the tapes in question are probably identified with rather generic titles (such as 'Machine Gun', rather than say M-60 machine gun) you'll get situations where the sounds they use come from a different weapon to the one seen on screen. They might also decide to replace the real sound with something that is more familiar or impressive than the real version. Which is why handguns on screen can sometimes produce a sound more in keeping with an anti-tank rifle. As to the real world. My impression is that the distinctive sound from a firearm comes from the action of the gun more than it does from the round itself. Although I can see two rifles with different muzzle velocities and different sized rounds producing different sounds when fired. and I am, of course, referring to the cases where someone fires a minigun, and the sound effects department dub in the sound of an M-2. In the early days of "talkie"movies they used live ammunition in the scenes...blanks being expensive and hard to come by.Jimmy Cagney was almost wounded filming a scene where he was shot at by a man with a tommy gun.In all his subsequent movie contracts he had a clause stating that he would never appear in any scene where live ammo was to be used. |
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Post by the light works on Apr 12, 2014 18:54:51 GMT
and I am, of course, referring to the cases where someone fires a minigun, and the sound effects department dub in the sound of an M-2. In the early days of "talkie"movies they used live ammunition in the scenes...blanks being expensive and hard to come by.Jimmy Cagney was almost wounded filming a scene where he was shot at by a man with a tommy gun.In all his subsequent movie contracts he had a clause stating that he would never appear in any scene where live ammo was to be used. can't say that I blame him. |
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Post by maxman on May 18, 2014 22:26:02 GMT
Actually, that modification was done for Predator. The modifications for Terminator 2 was removing the M16 carry handle and M60 forestock and installing the chainsaw grip - this left a nub on the Y-handle.
The M134 dropped was a rubber prop, which did not have the nub from where the carry handle was ground off.
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Post by wvengineer on Jun 16, 2014 3:49:30 GMT
I can discern the sound of a Ducati from a mile away. Not just that, I can tell if its running rough from about the same distance.... I can even tell if a ford escort MK1 is running cold, as the sound of the engine with a choke on is "Different" I can tell a .303 from a 7.62 on a range. Could a human ear get even more discerning? Okay, this could make for an interesting test. Take a magazine fed gun that can fire multiple calibers that are close enough, like .223 and 5.56mm. (In the case the gun would need chambered in 5.56.) Load the mag with a known pattern that mixes the two different rounds. Then shoot the mag and let someone try to guess the pattern of the bullet mix. Add appropriate controls to get a double blind test. |
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Post by the light works on Jun 16, 2014 15:06:41 GMT
I can discern the sound of a Ducati from a mile away. Not just that, I can tell if its running rough from about the same distance.... I can even tell if a ford escort MK1 is running cold, as the sound of the engine with a choke on is "Different" I can tell a .303 from a 7.62 on a range. Could a human ear get even more discerning? Okay, this could make for an interesting test. Take a magazine fed gun that can fire multiple calibers that are close enough, like .223 and 5.56mm. (In the case the gun would need chambered in 5.56.) Load the mag with a known pattern that mixes the two different rounds. Then shoot the mag and let someone try to guess the pattern of the bullet mix. Add appropriate controls to get a double blind test. its easier than that - just load different grades of ammunition in the same caliber. for example, my .308 can fire ammo ranging from saboted 90 grain hypervelocity loads to 170 grain hunting loads. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 19, 2014 9:27:09 GMT
... and you will find some weapons expert who can tell you what you are firing, even down to what rounds you use.
I know one person who can diagnose misfires on bikes as they pass... he is usually right.
As in, you ride up to is workshop, and if he want making noise and heard you approach he sill say "You came to me because the timing is out on cylinder two, right?..."
True, he is a dedicated Ducati expert, most all of his work is Ducati.
But because of variable loads of fuel air mix, he is used to the sound of that particular cylinder.
I say this, because I already know, I can tell a .303 Enfield on a range from one end of the camp to another, and I can also tell a misfire, or partial fire, or whatever...
I also know a certain 12 bore shotgun.
He uses various ammo dependant on what the target is.
It makes the same "Pomp" sound under the main bang, and that doesnt change.
For this reason, I will say a time served expert could tell certain weapons and differing loads to those weapons, sight unseen, with relative ease.
I also suggest Get Will (Hayden?) from Red Jacket on the phone, I think he may be able to help with this.
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Post by the light works on Jun 19, 2014 13:44:40 GMT
... and you will find some weapons expert who can tell you what you are firing, even down to what rounds you use. I know one person who can diagnose misfires on bikes as they pass... he is usually right. As in, you ride up to is workshop, and if he want making noise and heard you approach he sill say "You came to me because the timing is out on cylinder two, right?..." True, he is a dedicated Ducati expert, most all of his work is Ducati. But because of variable loads of fuel air mix, he is used to the sound of that particular cylinder. I say this, because I already know, I can tell a .303 Enfield on a range from one end of the camp to another, and I can also tell a misfire, or partial fire, or whatever... I also know a certain 12 bore shotgun. He uses various ammo dependant on what the target is. It makes the same "Pomp" sound under the main bang, and that doesnt change. For this reason, I will say a time served expert could tell certain weapons and differing loads to those weapons, sight unseen, with relative ease. I also suggest Get Will (Hayden?) from Red Jacket on the phone, I think he may be able to help with this. are you saying you think a reality TV show about "gunsmiths" is more real that any other reality TV show? |
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