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Post by ironhold on Apr 24, 2014 15:12:01 GMT
This is something that I've been thinking about.
Whenever someone high-class (or wishing to be seen as high-class) is shown drinking their alcohol on television, there's a good chance that they're drinking it out of "crystal" as opposed to typical glassware or even plastic.
Some of the "crystal" tumblers, glasses, and other drink containers I've seen have patterns sculpted into them. Others, like goblets, tend to have long stems.
If someone was to, say, shine a light directly through one point on such a "crystal" item - like, say, dead center on the bottom, would it be possible to observe a prism effect in action?
Thanks.
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 24, 2014 16:25:59 GMT
It would depend on how the light travels through the glassware and where it exits. The way a prism works is that, because of the angle, some of the white light travels longer through glass medium than other parts. Because light travels slower in glass than in free space, the part that stays in the prism longer has a longer wavelength when it finally exits. Longer wavelengths appear more toward the red side of the spectrum and shorter wavelengths appear towards the blue side.
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Post by ironhold on Apr 24, 2014 16:36:47 GMT
The question came about because of an idea that I had for a scene in a fiction series I'm considering.
A military officer is sent on an inspection tour of a particular planet; fortunately for him, a gala event in which most of the planet's nobles and elites are in attendance speeds things along, as he can address these people all at the same time.
The guy in charge of the planet tries to make small talk with him during the evening, and as part of it the guy boasts that he spared no expense in organizing the event so as to make sure that everyone - even the officer - was properly entertained. Among other things, the guy mentions, he ordered one of his ministers to import a specific brand of high-end crystal for the event.
When the officer asks, the guy in charge once again affirms that he deals squarely with everyone and tells no lies.
This leads the officer to seemingly go on a tangent about that brand of crystal and how every last piece is subjected to a test to insure its quality... the test being that a specific light is shone through it. Only those pieces that produce a specific prism effect are allowed out onto the market; the rest is either given to the workers, given to select charities, or destroyed. Any piece "out on the market" that fails the prism test is either a knock-off or was leaked somehow from the "discard" assortment.
Oh, and the officer is a member of the family that owns the company, and so he keeps one of the lights with him just in case. When the crystal fails the prism test, it serves as their first official clue that said minister's been skimming money by supplying knock-offs & inferior items and keeping the difference for himself.
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 24, 2014 16:44:21 GMT
Well, unfortunately, even clear plastic can act as a prism. But that wouldn't mean an expert couldn't tell the difference. It's your story, you can make the officer an expert capable of anything you want.
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Post by ironhold on Apr 24, 2014 17:16:32 GMT
So it wouldn't be all that solid a plot idea?
Thanks.
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 24, 2014 17:51:03 GMT
I've seen some pretty famous authors use shakier science.
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Post by User Unavailable on Apr 24, 2014 20:55:02 GMT
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Post by Cybermortis on Apr 24, 2014 21:41:02 GMT
So it wouldn't be all that solid a plot idea? Thanks. It would work, but I'd change it slightly to say that the high class crystal contains a unique element or compound which either comes from the manufacturing process used or the ingredients it is made from. This element, when a particular wavelength of light is shone on it, fluoresces or absorbs some of the wavelength to produce another colour if you look though it. Of course if this is sci-fi it is possible that the crystal glass is in fact made from a unique source of real crystal that has the same sort of reaction to a specific wavelength. This could be used in the story, if the 'hero' decides to 'out' the bad guy publicly. He could do so by tinkering with the lighting so it produces the required wavelengths. He goes in with a glass of the real stuff, and shows that everything else that the bad guy has on the table is not reacting as it should. |
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Post by the light works on Apr 25, 2014 1:08:53 GMT
So it wouldn't be all that solid a plot idea? Thanks. It would work, but I'd change it slightly to say that the high class crystal contains a unique element or compound which either comes from the manufacturing process used or the ingredients it is made from. This element, when a particular wavelength of light is shone on it, fluoresces or absorbs some of the wavelength to produce another colour if you look though it. Of course if this is sci-fi it is possible that the crystal glass is in fact made from a unique source of real crystal that has the same sort of reaction to a specific wavelength. This could be used in the story, if the 'hero' decides to 'out' the bad guy publicly. He could do so by tinkering with the lighting so it produces the required wavelengths. He goes in with a glass of the real stuff, and shows that everything else that the bad guy has on the table is not reacting as it should. actually, though I am not an expert in the field - I think that it would be possible for a manufacturer to have a proprietary formula for their crystal - as well as a proprietary cut at a key place that would allow such a test - theoretically, different densities of material and different angles of cut would produce a different projection. they might even embed a cut crystal (diamond?) at a key place in the glass where it was invisible until you hit it directly with the right wavelength of light. as far as the prismatic effect, itself - any clear material can refract light - so it is the specific refraction he will be looking for. |
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Post by ironhold on Apr 25, 2014 22:20:41 GMT
So there is a way for something like this to work?
Thanks.
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Post by the light works on Apr 25, 2014 23:29:18 GMT
So there is a way for something like this to work? Thanks. I am pretty sure I saw an optical diamond tester (as in diamond/not diamond) on Mrs TLW's reality TV; so that supports your hook. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Apr 26, 2014 11:51:18 GMT
So there is a way for something like this to work? Thanks. I am pretty sure I saw an optical diamond tester (as in diamond/not diamond) on Mrs TLW's reality TV; so that supports your hook. Well, in the case of diamonds (and other crystals) impurities result in different colours. It is not unbelievable that a specific 'impurity' introduced deliberately or as a side effect of the materials/production technique could result in a different 'colour', but only if viewed at certain wavelengths of light. |
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Post by the light works on Apr 26, 2014 12:58:53 GMT
I am pretty sure I saw an optical diamond tester (as in diamond/not diamond) on Mrs TLW's reality TV; so that supports your hook. Well, in the case of diamonds (and other crystals) impurities result in different colours. It is not unbelievable that a specific 'impurity' introduced deliberately or as a side effect of the materials/production technique could result in a different 'colour', but only if viewed at certain wavelengths of light. I looked up the diamond testers just to educate myself, and the common ones test thermal conductivity, with the Moissonite testers adding electrical conductivity as a test diamonds do fluoresce slightly under UV, and refraction testing can still weed out the glass and quartz imitations. |
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Post by c64 on May 7, 2014 12:46:22 GMT
Well, unfortunately, even clear plastic can act as a prism. Correct, I owned an electronic construction kit. The latest extension was the "High Tech" kit which also had some optic experiments. All the lenses, prisms and fiber optic wires were made of plastic. But the experiments all worked well. |
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Post by paulsee on May 23, 2014 14:17:05 GMT
Hmmm.... Not optics really, but I think there are some myths about crystal glass vs plain glass that might help. (especially wine glasses)
1. Crystal wine glass sounds very different than plain wine glass. - So maybe a toast cling would be an alternative?
2. Crystal wine glasses are thinner than plain wine glass - So maybe laser that checks glass thickness can be used?
3. Crystal wine glasses are heavier than plane wine glass - Not really how to work this into the story.
Hope this helps
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Post by the light works on May 23, 2014 14:30:54 GMT
Hmmm.... Not optics really, but I think there are some myths about crystal glass vs plain glass that might help. (especially wine glasses) 1. Crystal wine glass sounds very different than plain wine glass. - So maybe a toast cling would be an alternative? 2. Crystal wine glasses are thinner than plain wine glass - So maybe laser that checks glass thickness can be used? 3. Crystal wine glasses are heavier than plane wine glass - Not really how to work this into the story. Hope this helps the traditional ringing is already used to differentiate "crystal" from "glass" - but that is more a quality or crap differentiation than positive identification between genuine and counterfeit. using some sort of a tone check might be an alternate maguffin, but not quite as showy as a prismatic display. |
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Post by rmc on May 26, 2014 3:56:38 GMT
I'd say yes. A dispersion of light by crown glass or fine glass can be difficult to see, but it's there. To amplify this effect, another angle in the material (off the normal of the first surface) is generally used to increase light dispersion out the second diffracting surface for true prism effect (such that it's not square, basically). Since each clear material has its own unique set of refraction indices, one could test for inferior product by checking the angle produced coming off the final normal-to-exiting-surface. In other words it wouldn't really be checking to see if a rainbow was made, but, rather, if that rainbow had the correct angle coming out. If fine glass throws a final angle, off normal, of sixty degrees for some particular wavelength of light when exiting, but is seen casting some other angle instead, then a counterfeit is likely to blame. (something with a refracting index different from fine glass) Of course, one would have to be careful if including the container of liquid too to provide the prism effect. Because each clear liquid also has its own unique index of refraction and if one person checks using water while another checks using some sort of alcohol, they'd each get different resulting angles. So, to be clear here, the thick stem idea works for making a prism, but it would be improved if angles are sharper than square, and if no liquid is involved, just to keep things uniform. www.physicsclassroom.com/class/refrn/u14l4a.cfmwww.physicsclassroom.com/class/refrn/Lesson-2/Snell-s-Lawen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength |
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Post by the light works on May 26, 2014 5:23:32 GMT
I'd say yes. A dispersion of light by crown glass or fine glass can be difficult to see, but it's there. To amplify this effect, another angle in the material (off the normal of the first surface) is generally used to increase light dispersion out the second diffracting surface for true prism effect (such that it's not square, basically). Since each clear material has its own unique set of refraction indices, one could test for inferior product by checking the angle produced coming off the final normal-to-exiting-surface. In other words it wouldn't really be checking to see if a rainbow was made, but, rather, if that rainbow had the correct angle coming out. If fine glass throws a final angle, off normal, of sixty degrees for some particular wavelength of light when exiting, but is seen casting some other angle instead, then a counterfeit is likely to blame. (something with a refracting index different from fine glass) Of course, one would have to be careful if including the container of liquid too to provide the prism effect. Because each clear liquid also has its own unique index of refraction and if one person checks using water while another checks using some sort of alcohol, they'd each get different resulting angles. So, to be clear here, the thick stem idea works for making a prism, but it would be improved if angles are sharper than square, and if no liquid is involved, just to keep things uniform. www.physicsclassroom.com/class/refrn/u14l4a.cfmwww.physicsclassroom.com/class/refrn/Lesson-2/Snell-s-Lawen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelengththis was one reason I was thinking embedding a cone or pyramid of clear unobtanium in the stem would be a good trick - it would essentially be impossible to imitate without knowing all the particulars; and you'd be able to test effectively by setting the glass upright on your light source, and having the prismatic result all around it. |
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Post by ironhold on May 26, 2014 15:36:16 GMT
Thanks again.
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