|
Post by wvengineer on May 3, 2014 1:14:40 GMT
Toyota is developing a new style of Gas engine/electric generator. They call it a free piston engine. www.tytlabs.com/tech/fpeg/index.htmlInstead of the piston rotating the crank shaft via the connecting rod, the eliminate the connecting rod and crank shaft. The Piston is directly connected to a series of permanent magnets that are driving back and forth though a coil, generating electric power. On one had, I can see reducing the mechanical connections will improve overall efficiency. They are also using a 2 stoke cycle that will give added power. On the other, the 2 stoke setup will probably be a real problem for pollution control, making it a problem for use in cars. Additionally, without the inertia of the crank shaft to power the compression stroke or to actuate the valves, you have to run the compression and valves off of separate actuators, that will likely steal a lot of the power that it generates. What are your thought? Genius or vaporware pipe dream?
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on May 3, 2014 1:49:58 GMT
I'm not so sure about the "low vibration" claim. Especially with only one piston flying back and forth. I saw a similar design, I think it was German, about a year ago or so that used two opposed pistons. The pistons were not mechanically connected but were synchronized through the firing timing and also kept in sync through the magnetic coupling of the two coils in series. Like this toyota engine, it used compressed gas as the return force.
There is another design where two opposing pistons are connected together with the magnet between them. One piston's firing stroke is the other pistons compression stroke. I think this was also a two cycle design.
While these free piston engines look like they have a lot of potential, we'll have to see if they ever make it out of the lab.
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on May 3, 2014 6:25:36 GMT
Is it a myth that two stroke engines MUST burn oil.
I cant see why a new take on two stroke cant include a clean burn system?...
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 3, 2014 8:49:18 GMT
many popular diesel engines are two stroke engines. they are not required to use the fuel as the lubricant - that is just popular in the small two strokes.
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on May 3, 2014 10:11:53 GMT
In this design, I wonder if you could use the magnetic field as a bearing? Between that, air bearings, and an oil free ring setup, you may not need any oil at all. How would that effect maintenance and life?
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 3, 2014 13:59:50 GMT
In this design, I wonder if you could use the magnetic field as a bearing? Between that, air bearings, and an oil free ring setup, you may not need any oil at all. How would that effect maintenance and life? magnetic fields don't seal in combustion byproducts well. this means that at some point you need friction seals - and they need to be lubricated. the free piston concept does get rid of a lot of other moving parts, though, so it does have the potential to reduce oil exposure significantly.
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on May 3, 2014 20:09:18 GMT
magnetic fields don't seal in combustion byproducts well. this means that at some point you need friction seals - and they need to be lubricated. the free piston concept does get rid of a lot of other moving parts, though, so it does have the potential to reduce oil exposure significantly. Could you use a self lubricating metal for the seals like Bronze? Or would that not stand up to the heat/abuse?
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 3, 2014 20:14:39 GMT
magnetic fields don't seal in combustion byproducts well. this means that at some point you need friction seals - and they need to be lubricated. the free piston concept does get rid of a lot of other moving parts, though, so it does have the potential to reduce oil exposure significantly. Could you use a self lubricating metal for the seals like Bronze? Or would that not stand up to the heat/abuse? I would guess bronze would not take the heat and pressure of a modern engine well.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on May 7, 2014 12:03:18 GMT
The reason for a simple 2-stroke gasoline engine burning oil is that a 2-stroke engine lacks the intake and exhaust stroke. Instead, those cycles are part of the work stroke. At the end of the work stroke, the cylinder needs to be "flushed" in order to replace the exhaust gasses with fresh air and fuel vapors.
You can use a blower to flush the cylinder but this requires additional hardware. The method of choice for simple 2-stroke engines is using the crank case as a compressor. When the piston goes up during the compression stroke, the vacuum of the crank case draws in the gas/air mixture from the carburettor. When the piston goes down during the work stroke, the crank case is pressurized and this pressure is used to flush the cylinder when the piston is all the way down. This method requires to add oil to the gasoline in order to lubricate the crankshaft and piston.
The blower allows to fill the crank case with oil for cooling and lubrication purposes. Using a blower for a gas engine is not a good idea since you have a flammable mixture under pressure. If the blower leaks or the engine backfires, the engine can catch fire or blow up easily. In a diesel engine, all the blower does is to handle fresh air, the fuel is added right before the work stroke inside the cylinder.
A 2-stroke gas engine must use the crank casing as a compressor for safety reasons and this requires adding oil to the fuel for lubrication. The lack of cooling from splashing oil requires a very crude design because the piston will heat up a lot and can become stuck in the cylinder. This decreases efficiency dramatically. On the other hand, the crude design also decreases costs since you don't need a complicated cooling system for the cylinder as well. So while a 2-stroke gas engine is very inefficient, it's cheap and very simple which also makes it very reliable.
There's another effect which decreases the efficiency of 2-stroke gas engines which also prevents the use of a good catalytic converter. Flushing the cylinder can't be done well. Either you replace not much exhaust gasses or you flush fresh mixture right through into the exhaust pipe. Most who had a motorcycle using such a simple 2-stroke engine know that removing the "shock disc" of the muffler will increase the engine power dramatically. The "schock disc" reflects the shockwave of the exhaust gasses. The returning shock wave stop gasses from escaping the engine to keep as much unburned fuel as possible inside the engine. By removing the disc, the cylinder is flushed much more rigorous but at the same time, a lot of unused fuel will escape. Your motorcycle will burn more than twice as much fuel but is significantly faster.
A 2-stroke diesel can flush all the way it likes, there is no unused fuel present in this stage of engine cycle. The fuel is put in right before the work stroke. So while a 2-stroke diesel is more complicated due to the blower, it has an oil sump in the crank case and no efficiency deficits from flushing. The only real disadvantage of a 2-stroke diesel design is that you can't turbo charge it!
The idea of an engine with just a moving piston isn't new at all. There were many designs meant to be used as pumps and compressors. They all didn't make it onto the market since plenty of exhaust gasses mix with the medium you pump or compress. Water is contaminated with oil and poisonous exhaust gasses and so is compressed air. You can't breath what comes out of your jackhammer and you can't pump water into the environment.
The design to generate electricity that way has many flaws, too. The piston doesn't perform a sine wave movement so you won't be able to generate plain AC. You need a power converter! Also the shock waves of the combustion shake the magnets ruining them. And the wider the gap between magnet and coil, the lower the efficiency so the piston must have a very tight bearing which becomes destroyed when the thing heats up - or you use a very crude design with low electric efficiency. And if you need a power converter anyway, why not using a super efficient fuel cell in the first place?
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 7, 2014 14:26:00 GMT
The reason for a simple 2-stroke gasoline engine burning oil is that a 2-stroke engine lacks the intake and exhaust stroke. Instead, those cycles are part of the work stroke. At the end of the work stroke, the cylinder needs to be "flushed" in order to replace the exhaust gasses with fresh air and fuel vapors. You can use a blower to flush the cylinder but this requires additional hardware. The method of choice for simple 2-stroke engines is using the crank case as a compressor. When the piston goes up during the compression stroke, the vacuum of the crank case draws in the gas/air mixture from the carburettor. When the piston goes down during the work stroke, the crank case is pressurized and this pressure is used to flush the cylinder when the piston is all the way down. This method requires to add oil to the gasoline in order to lubricate the crankshaft and piston. The blower allows to fill the crank case with oil for cooling and lubrication purposes. Using a blower for a gas engine is not a good idea since you have a flammable mixture under pressure. If the blower leaks or the engine backfires, the engine can catch fire or blow up easily. In a diesel engine, all the blower does is to handle fresh air, the fuel is added right before the work stroke inside the cylinder. A 2-stroke gas engine must use the crank casing as a compressor for safety reasons and this requires adding oil to the fuel for lubrication. The lack of cooling from splashing oil requires a very crude design because the piston will heat up a lot and can become stuck in the cylinder. This decreases efficiency dramatically. On the other hand, the crude design also decreases costs since you don't need a complicated cooling system for the cylinder as well. So while a 2-stroke gas engine is very inefficient, it's cheap and very simple which also makes it very reliable. There's another effect which decreases the efficiency of 2-stroke gas engines which also prevents the use of a good catalytic converter. Flushing the cylinder can't be done well. Either you replace not much exhaust gasses or you flush fresh mixture right through into the exhaust pipe. Most who had a motorcycle using such a simple 2-stroke engine know that removing the "shock disc" of the muffler will increase the engine power dramatically. The "schock disc" reflects the shockwave of the exhaust gasses. The returning shock wave stop gasses from escaping the engine to keep as much unburned fuel as possible inside the engine. By removing the disc, the cylinder is flushed much more rigorous but at the same time, a lot of unused fuel will escape. Your motorcycle will burn more than twice as much fuel but is significantly faster. A 2-stroke diesel can flush all the way it likes, there is no unused fuel present in this stage of engine cycle. The fuel is put in right before the work stroke. So while a 2-stroke diesel is more complicated due to the blower, it has an oil sump in the crank case and no efficiency deficits from flushing. The only real disadvantage of a 2-stroke diesel design is that you can't turbo charge it!
The idea of an engine with just a moving piston isn't new at all. There were many designs meant to be used as pumps and compressors. They all didn't make it onto the market since plenty of exhaust gasses mix with the medium you pump or compress. Water is contaminated with oil and poisonous exhaust gasses and so is compressed air. You can't breath what comes out of your jackhammer and you can't pump water into the environment. The design to generate electricity that way has many flaws, too. The piston doesn't perform a sine wave movement so you won't be able to generate plain AC. You need a power converter! Also the shock waves of the combustion shake the magnets ruining them. And the wider the gap between magnet and coil, the lower the efficiency so the piston must have a very tight bearing which becomes destroyed when the thing heats up - or you use a very crude design with low electric efficiency. And if you need a power converter anyway, why not using a super efficient fuel cell in the first place? first: the difference you cite is not between a gas and diesel motor but between a carbureted and fuel injected motor. second: Mr Cummins would be inclined to disagree with you on the impossibility of turbocharging a two-stroke diesel.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on May 8, 2014 11:34:47 GMT
first: the difference you cite is not between a gas and diesel motor but between a carbureted and fuel injected motor. second: Mr Cummins would be inclined to disagree with you on the impossibility of turbocharging a two-stroke diesel. [/quote] The difference is between an engine with direct fuel injection and other systems. It doesn't make much sense making a simple engine and then use a highly expensive injection system. Of course you can turbocharge a 2-stroke, it's not the 2-stroke itself that prevents turbo charging. It's the valveless principle which make the common 2-stroke so simple, reliable and cheap. Of course you can add valves and then equip anything a 4-stroke engine can have.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 8, 2014 13:49:04 GMT
first: the difference you cite is not between a gas and diesel motor but between a carbureted and fuel injected motor. second: Mr Cummins would be inclined to disagree with you on the impossibility of turbocharging a two-stroke diesel. The difference is between an engine with direct fuel injection and other systems. It doesn't make much sense making a simple engine and then use a highly expensive injection system. Of course you can turbocharge a 2-stroke, it's not the 2-stroke itself that prevents turbo charging. It's the valveless principle which make the common 2-stroke so simple, reliable and cheap. Of course you can add valves and then equip anything a 4-stroke engine can have.[/quote] well, except if you want to increase your power to weight ratio by about 50% so really, what you are saying is when you said two stroke, you meant motorcycle/chain saw engine - in which case, you also cannot make a diesel two stroke, because you cannot make a light simple cheap diesel engine. either be specific or be all encompassing - but don't try to be both at once.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on May 8, 2014 19:54:22 GMT
because you cannot make a light simple cheap diesel engine. either be specific or be all encompassing - but don't try to be both at once. Of course you can. Most early diesel tractors had pretty crude and simple 2-stroke diesel engines. The most famous engine was the "Lanz Bulldog" engine invented in 1918 by Fritz Huber. Originally it was designed for crude oil as a stationary engine, then used in a farming tractor which became also known as "the Bulldog". Here are some diagrams too look at: www.lanz-bulldog-homepage.de/src/tech/gluehkopfmotor.htmlLike the common gas 2-stroke engine, it uses the crankcase as the blower but it uses indirect injection as classic diesel engines use. The problem of building up soot and spitting burning chunks of soot was fixed by using a cylinder filled with iron wool in the exhaust pipe. This was how the muffler was invented, it's primary function was to prevent torching fields and barns but it also reduced the engine noise so it was kept even after the soot problem was really fixed. The injection pump is nothing but a cylinder hit by a cam at the correct time. The accelerator just rises and lowers the cylinder so the accelerator controls the amount of fuel squirted into the glow head. As seen in the diagrams, the some early crude oil versions were started using spark plugs. Light gasoline was added from a second fuel tank to start the engine. The injection jet had to set to spray "wide" so the gas vapours reach the spark plug. When the engine was running for a while, you had to stop adding gasoline and set the injection jet to spray "narrow". The later diesel Bulldogs method to start them was to set a blowtorch filled with petroleum under the "bulldog's head" and wait until it glows red hot before the engine can be started. The "bulldog's head" of the diesel version is pure design of the cover keeping the actual head hot. The early crude oil version heads looked like a bulldog's head for technical reasons.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on May 8, 2014 20:14:45 GMT
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 9, 2014 13:46:36 GMT
well, that certainly does look light and simple... how many horsepowers to the pound does it develop?
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on May 10, 2014 7:51:26 GMT
Ok, so, I am going to re-ask a question, because I dont understand the answer....
Putting oil in a two stroke fuel.
I know it lubricates "Something", but that something is not the problem, its the fact it has to lubricate anything at all.
We are now modern, we have investigated may things, yet we cant make a two stroke engine that self lubricates without having to burn the oil to pass it through the combustion chamber with Total Loss?.... (as it in goes out the exhaust)
Cannot we make bits of engine that dont need constant lubrication?...
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 10, 2014 11:45:18 GMT
Ok, so, I am going to re-ask a question, because I dont understand the answer.... Putting oil in a two stroke fuel. I know it lubricates "Something", but that something is not the problem, its the fact it has to lubricate anything at all. We are now modern, we have investigated may things, yet we cant make a two stroke engine that self lubricates without having to burn the oil to pass it through the combustion chamber with Total Loss?.... (as it in goes out the exhaust) Cannot we make bits of engine that dont need constant lubrication?... a simple two stroke - aka chainsaw engine, uses the crankcase as a supercharger. therefore, there is no crankcase oil, and as I am sure you know, gasoline is an excellent solvent for cleaning oil off of metal parts. so you could certainly make a two stroke engine with a blower and an oil filled crankcase - at the expense of cutting the horsepower per pound in half. but you can't make a permanently lubricated crankcase with a constant flow of fuel-air mix through it.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on May 10, 2014 16:12:32 GMT
well, that certainly does look light and simple... how many horsepowers to the pound does it develop?[/quote] I am not familiar with the old Bulldogs, but the last two tractor series were the 20xx and 40xx series, the first 2 digits are the HP rating.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on May 10, 2014 16:32:12 GMT
Ok, so, I am going to re-ask a question, because I dont understand the answer.... Putting oil in a two stroke fuel. I know it lubricates "Something", but that something is not the problem, its the fact it has to lubricate anything at all. We are now modern, we have investigated may things, yet we cant make a two stroke engine that self lubricates without having to burn the oil to pass it through the combustion chamber with Total Loss?.... (as it in goes out the exhaust) Cannot we make bits of engine that dont need constant lubrication?...
|
|
|
Post by the light works on May 10, 2014 16:40:08 GMT
well, that certainly does look light and simple... how many horsepowers to the pound does it develop? I am not familiar with the old Bulldogs, but the last two tractor series were the 20xx and 40xx series, the first 2 digits are the HP rating.[/quote] so... how much does the engine weigh? my chain saw, for example, weighs 10 pounds and develops 10.9 horsepower. (well probably weighs 12 because of the oversized bar)
|
|